Need some help with HPTA looks like (blood work)
- 04-27-2005, 12:48 PM
Need some help with HPTA looks like (blood work)
Well got my blood work back today and boy am I confused. Well way back in Spring of last year I did a tren cycle at 75mg eod. Finished up PCT with herbs, chrysin, zinc. Not smart I know but I felt fine. Had blood work done last fall before my 10 week 1T-4AD cycle and my total test was 352 I didn't like that but went ahead with the cycle My PCT was Finishing up PCT and got a ? so its been about a month to 5 weeks after pct when I had my blood drawn but I don't think I have recovered. My question is what shoudl I do to get my FSH and LH higher? I was thinking of buying 2 test saliva tests and doing one now then taking ultra hot for 20 days then doing another one OR shoudl I do another pct of nolva?
tsh 1.75 0.40-5.50 MIU/L
LH 1.8 1.5-9.3MIU/ML
FSH 1.3 1.6-8.0MIU/ML
Total test 346 241-827NG/DL
ESTRADIOL 9 10-50pg/ml
Another thing if my estradiol is so low then wouldn't that be telling my hypothalmus release GnRH and then the pituitary release LH/FSH to make more test. I just dont understand?
- 04-27-2005, 07:01 PM
Can anyone shed more light on the androgen (DHT) feedback system and could that be my problem?
- 04-27-2005, 07:19 PM
Do your testicles seem to be normal size for you? I would say try some HCG for like 6 weeks + clomid or nolva and some rxt or ultra hot. The HCG will suppress your hpta, but for some people it has helped get things working quicker down there. The estradiol is very low as you stated, which I would think would be good for causing your hypothalmus to release more GnRH, but I dont totally understand those systems yet.
04-27-2005, 08:08 PM
Next time bro, hit up the hCG, like crazy. Also, either nolva or clomid, accept no substitutes.
At this point nolva or clomid should help you, hCG might (if your hypogonadism continues even with nolva or clomid therapy it's worth a shot, no pun intended).
I would say do 6 weeks of either nolva or clomid and get tested again. If you're not back to normal (but you are making minor improvements) continue on the SERM and add a small amount of hcg 2-3 times a week.
I would honestly consult with SWALE though, this is what the man does for a living and he's quite well regarded.
04-27-2005, 09:22 PM
SWALE has his own HRT forum over at meso-rx.
04-28-2005, 12:20 PM
Why would nolva or clomid e effective at this point since my estro is already low? Wouldn't HCG possibly make the situation worse?
BOBO, BOW, DR.D any thoughts??
04-28-2005, 02:07 PM
Clomid will stimulate LH. Nolva will work too. They both will help.
6 weeks of HCG might be overkill. If you go that route, 4 weeks should be fine.
04-29-2005, 02:23 PM
Needless to say I am frustrated and I honestly do not think that taking more SERMs will help especially after taking advice form a doctor, but I am still open for opnions from Dr. D, SWALE or people pf the sorts.
Here is the plan (all totals are per day & duration is 40 days)
avena sative 1.4g
Ultra H.O.T. 4 caps before bed
What do you think before I place the order?
Thanks in advance
04-29-2005, 02:39 PM
Did you go over to the meso-rx forums and post a thread there for SWALE? I think your stack looks ok, personally I would try HCG, something like 250IU eod or just mon/wed/fri for 4-6 weeks.
04-29-2005, 04:44 PM
yeah I made the same exact post over there. Swale has not commented yet but a couple of know it alls have. Most of the guys over there are my age and already on TRT WTF? One guy told me that tribulus was suppresive and to stop that before I make things worse, so basically I am waiting for swale. I hope he responds I have read many things he does and I highly value his opinion.Originally Posted by Nate Dawg
04-29-2005, 05:59 PM
Tribulus and fenugreek will make your man hang a little fuller, but they don't do **** for your test levels. Avena sativa has no tests on humans showing any benefit (in fact, there are numerous guys on boards who have started megadosing the **** then gotten blood work done and seen no change in free or total test) and ginko works great on rats that are congenitally bred for getting alzheimers but no real data on people. If you're smart you'll talk to swale bro, anything else you'll do is a waste of time and money.Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
04-30-2005, 10:03 AM
ex & Nate: thnaks for the replies guys. Swale is no longer taking internet patients and from reading some of his later posts I think that he is tired of giving out advice to so many people.
I already have all the stuff I mentioned above except the HOT. After all the hours of reading and research I believe that I have a high conversion of DHT. I posted in the ALRI forum about my thoughts on that.
I am still going to wait a little while longer in hopes that swale does say something and in the mean time I am goign to locate some hcg
04-30-2005, 07:04 PM
tribulus is actually been noted by many to actually continue suppression. the thing about your doctors advice is most md's dont really know much about anabolic supplementation and especially pct. talk to swale and if you cant get ahold of him i would try using hcg in small amounts for about a month to see if you can get your levels back up to par.
05-04-2005, 09:05 PM
It may take 3 months to get back to normal,just continue with Nolva and/or Clom and you should be fine,as you´re on the low side of normal values and felling pretty good,as you stated in the other thread,that would be what I would do.
05-04-2005, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
do you have your dht values? free and weakly bound test values? Honestly once you get a few of these values out of whack if you are that concerned about it seeing a doc is best bet. Find one who understands and have them get you straightened out. I am not so sure what value anti es for example make for you with E2 that low.
I am guessing btw that you didnt get swales answers over there because the strictlly mods the forum for issues directly related to and as a result of legitimate HRT. Although in his private practice he does see and treat patients for pct etc he keeps the forum to HRT only.
05-04-2005, 11:52 PM
A couple of thoughts. First, you’re definitely on the low end of normal for both FSH and LH. Estrogen acts largely at the pituitary, affecting both the number and function of GnRH receptors. So, low estrogen certainly should increase production of LH and FSH (assuming GnRH is being provided via the hypothalamus) far above the levels you are seeing. Total test is on the low end of normal, but that at least indicates the leydig cells are responding to what little LH is being produced by the pituitary. Also, absent incredibly high DHT levels, your T levels could not be negatively impacting the AR centrally. It would be nice to be able to rule out the hypothalamus, but GnRH production is very difficult to measure. So, perhaps something is not functioning correctly within the hypothalamus or pituitary itself? Either the hypothalamus is not producing GnRH or pituitary is not responding to the GnRH being produced. It doesn't sound like inhibition caused by negative feedback from the hormones measured in your blood panel. In which case, HCG, AI’s or SERM’s are not likely to be the solution. It could possibly be something caused by excess prolactin, corisol, or another of the less obvious feedback mechanisms. But in that case, you are really going beyond the advice you are going to find without a consultation. You might want to consider getting a second blood test. If the results are similar, see an endocrinologist.Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
05-05-2005, 05:55 AM
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I think he needs to do more accurate blood tests of thyroid and hormonal levels (with free test, prolactin, cortisol and DHT). And then consult an endocrinologist. The matter is really too complicated for giving advice online.Originally Posted by bow
If the problem was only DHT conversion, I would say to take finasteride, dutasteride, beta-sitosterol or saw palmetto, but I dont think is it, since the total test is already pretty low.
05-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Well I can already pretty much rule prolactin out with all the B-6 I ate post cycle, but possibly not. Cortisol well that is a high possibility. I have a robot demo today at 1800 and it is 100% of our final grade and the damn ting will not make right hand turns. So yeah I have been cortisol guy for the last couple of weeks.Originally Posted by bow
Do you guys think using my military insurance is a good idea for all this specific bloodwork? Do you think it will raise some eyebrows?
05-05-2005, 10:56 AM
B-6 hasn't been proven to have any effect on prolactin in humans.Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
Don't know. Good question.Do you guys think using my military insurance is a good idea for all this specific bloodwork? Do you think it will raise some eyebrows?
I would use it anyways. The consequences shouldn't be bad at all. You won't lose your qualification for insurance in the future. And endocrinology is so complex and beyond most doctors and experts, that it could be caused by anything, (including phytoestrogens in our environment).
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