Epi Andro and Health Issues

[highlander31]

So as I am looking into running EpiAndro for the first time, I started thinking about how this compound works and if there is a best cycle support option.

So the Epiandro works because it converts into DHT right? DHT is great, but has large impacts on the Prostate as compared to other anabolic hormones. I am sure Epiandro also impacts Blood Pressure. So you would think you would want to use a support for your prostate like Saw Palmetto. However, Saw Palmetto is suppose to decrease 5a-Reductase correct? This is how Saw Palmetto is beneficial in cycle support to help stop BPH correct?

So wouldnt that beg the question if Saw Palmetto should even be used during your Epiandro run? Would you be better off using just Blood Pressure support like Hawthorne, Grape Seed, Etc as stand alones along with the EpiAndro?

Do you think people have to run EpiAndro in the 6-800mg range to see good drying effects and strength because of the Saw Palmetto being used in cycle support? Without Saw Palmetto, the EpiAndro may be able to be run lower doses like 3-400mg and still get the same effects due to not inhibiting that converting enzyme?

I am not sure. Thoughts on this guys? Obviously I want to protect my prostate, but its short term too in use (6-8 weeks). Any other prostate options that dont inhibit T to DHT conversion?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Saw Palmetto (if it works at all - studies seem mixed) blocks the conversion of Testosterone into DHT via the 5aR enzyme like you stated. EpiAndro for all intents and purposes is just DHT already (2 step conversion DHEA Metabolite, but it *is not* Testosterone being converted via 5aR) - so I doubt Saw Palmetto would do anything at all anyway. Not a Bio-Chemist so somebody please correct me if needed.

I'm not a fan of any 5aR inhibitor. I'm in the "It's Estrogen, not DHT that's bad for your prostate" camp. I *want* DHT - strength, aggression, manly sh*t, reduces Estrogen, etc...

I'm almost 50 and was pissing just fine on Androvar. N=1. YMMV.

 

[Canes325]

More and more studies are pointing to high estrogen being the culprit regarding prostate issues, not DHT.

 

[highlander31]

Awesome info guys. Appreciate this.

 

[georgetown]

Pretty sure pygeum is another effective supplement for the prostate but dont know too much on how it effects T or DHT

 

[Misfit28]

I was just wondering about this today. I planned on using Cycle Assist during my Epi-Andro cycle, should I not?

 

[highlander31]

I was just wondering about this today. I planned on using Cycle Assist during my Epi-Andro cycle, should I not?

Haha my thoughts too man. What I did was get grape seed extract and Hawthorne and NAC and magnesium. A certain Vita website has their brand real cheap at buy one get one half with free shipping and its quality stuff

I will probably get some Cycle Assist for PCT tho

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Anything that is known to "protect the prostate/hair" is blocking 5a-R... which means it is blocking the creation of DHT from Testosterone. Now, if you are taking exogenous DHT, it may not matter, but I'm no endocrinologist. I generally try to avoid any 5a-R blockers as I believe Estrogen is the culprit for prostate issues. Now hair on the other hand... but if you have the MPB gene, it's going anyway, eventually.

 

[Misfit28]

Anything that is known to "protect the prostate/hair" is blocking 5a-R... which means it is blocking the creation of DHT from Testosterone. Now, if you are taking exogenous DHT, it may not matter, but I'm no endocrinologist. I generally try to avoid any 5a-R blockers as I believe Estrogen is the culprit for prostate issues. Now hair on the other hand... but if you have the MPB gene, it's going anyway, eventually.

Hehe, my hair is already mostly gone and I shave it. Not so worried about that part.

I just don't want my cycle support to affect my cycle. Maybe I'll do what Highlander said and get the separate stuff for BP.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Hehe, my hair is already mostly gone and I shave it. Not so worried about that part.

I just don't want my cycle support to affect my cycle. Maybe I'll do what Highlander said and get the separate stuff for BP.

I do separates for that very reason. I really wish these companies would take out "prostate protection", as DHT is a PLUS in my book, and there is very little evidence that they actually protect anything anyway. Red Yeast Rice is another one that you are paying for, that, if they are following the law, is doing nothing (by law, you can't sell any RYR that has any measurable statin in it). But you know marketing...

 

[Misfit28]

I do separates for that very reason. I really wish these companies would take out "prostate protection", as DHT is a PLUS in my book, and there is very little evidence that they actually protect anything anyway. Red Yeast Rice is another one that you are paying for, that, if they are following the law, is doing nothing (by law, you can't sell any RYR that has any measurable statin in it). But you know marketing...

Lol, I never knew that either. Wtf!?

 

[dbl38]

I am running Animal Paks for support which is truly the over kill vitamin IMO, but at half the dose it seems like a good support.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Lol, I never knew that either. Wtf!?

Pick your poison:

A. The FDA is protecting people from self medicating their cholesterol problems and dying.

B. The FDA is protecting BigPharma's profits because *real* Red Yeast Rice works as well, or better than Simvastatin (Zocor), Pravastatin (Pravachol), Atorvastatin (Lipitor), Fluvastatin (Lescol), or Rosuvastatin (Crestor)

 

[hamdysayed]

So I shouldn't use beta sitosterol with my epiandro run?
Sucks ..

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So I shouldn't use beta sitosterol with my epiandro run?
Sucks ..

Since EpiAndro doesn't convert to DHT via 5a-R of Testosterone, you *could* take it I guess - but It wouldn't do anything for "protection" for the Epi derived DHT, if it works at all. And since you're taking a DHT compound anyway, why try to block any natural DHT production from T, anyway?

 

[hamdysayed]

Since EpiAndro doesn't convert to DHT via 5a-R of Testosterone, you *could* take it I guess - but It wouldn't do anything for "protection" for the Epi derived DHT, if it works at all. And since you're taking a DHT compound anyway, why try to block any natural DHT production from T, anyway?

I was trying to run a comprehensive cholesterol cycle support.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I was trying to run a comprehensive cholesterol cycle support.

Looked into pantethine? Garlic extract? Guessing you already taking fish oil.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Looked into pantethine? Garlic extract? Guessing you already taking fish oil.

Grape Seed, Policosanol (barring a Cuban sugar conspiracy), Olive Leaf...

Head over to Examine and search Total Cholesterol. Then click on each compound and investigate it's effect on Total, HDL, and LDL.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Yeah there are a number of options.

I admit, I have a prejudice for certain ones due to their additional arterial health benefits.

 

[hamdysayed]

Already bought it dammit, plus when I ran epistane it was kinda painful when peeing.
that was one of the reasons
so u guys advise against it right ?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'm more against it naturally or with 4-AD stuff. Since you are taking a DHT pre-cursor, go ahead and take it if it makes you more comfortable.

 

[hamdysayed]

I'm more against it naturally or with 4-AD stuff. Since you are taking a DHT pre-cursor, go ahead and take it if it makes you more comfortable.

Well it's all about the gainz, if its going to mess up my epiandro I'll hold off.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

It won't, or... very minimally. Your natural T will be suppressed, so ain't a whole lot of 5a-R going on any way. The EpiA does not convert via 5a-R, so it doesn't matter for that.

 

[hamdysayed]

It won't, or... very minimally. Your natural T will be suppressed, so ain't a whole lot of 5a-R going on any way. The EpiA does not convert via 5a-R, so it doesn't matter for that.

Sweet using that for sure.
thanks bro.

 

[highlander31]

It won't, or... very minimally. Your natural T will be suppressed, so ain't a whole lot of 5a-R going on any way. The EpiA does not convert via 5a-R, so it doesn't matter for that.

Do you know the pathway that it does convert?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Do you know the pathway that it does convert?

I do not off the top of my head. I think I was reading an article or a thread somewhere else that Patrick Arnold wrote/was in, that was talking about it. But I could be totally wrong too I'll try to find it.

Found this:

3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (Androsterone)
3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one (aka Androsterone) is an endogenous steroid hormone and weak androgen with a potency that is approximately 1/7th that of testosterone.

It can be converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from 17-hydroxyprogesterone, bypassing conventional intermediates such as androstenedione and testosterone. As such, it can be considered to be a metabolic intermediate.

It was discovered 1931 by Adolf Friedrich Johann Butenandt and Kurt Tscherning. They distilled out of male urine, resulting in crystalline androsterone, which was sufficient to find that the chemical formula was very similar to estrone.

Androsterone and Epiandrosterone are essentially the same molecule, with androsterone being the 3-alpha isomer and epiandrosterone being the 3-beta isomer.

 

[highlander31]

I do not off the top of my head. I think I was reading an article or a thread somewhere else that Patrick Arnold wrote/was in, that was talking about it. But I could be totally wrong too I'll try to find it.

Found this:

DAMMMM so this means Epiandro converts to a progesterone before converting to DHT yes? That could mean that if you do not handle/respond to progesterones well, it could have some progestin related side effects yes? Especially high dosing Epiandro, you could have a very high conversion to progestins with low conversion to DHT. Thoughts?

 

[highlander31]

Here is a pathway I found that shows androsterone and Epiandrosterone.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Hastur goes into the conversion process a little in his writeup, which can be found in the main andro thread in this forum, or in the Q&A thread in the OUK subforum.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Yeah, the bottom right corner is the area of interest. This is getting out of my wheelhouse, but I don't think there is any progestin worry, and 5a-R isn't involved according to that chart.

 

[netflixNchill]

So can epiandro convert to a progesterone? If someone is sensitive to that could that cause gyno?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So can epiandro convert to a progesterone? If someone is sensitive to that could that cause gyno?

It looks like it can only convert back to Androstanedione, and that's it. Look at the arrows on the chart. Subject to correction by a Bio-Chemist.