LDL / HDL recovery?

[Ator]

Posted this in another thread, but got no replies... so here we go again:

This might not be a simple question with a simple answer, but in general, how long does it take to get back to normal if your LDL/HDL / cholesterol is banged up by SD and/or M1T?
What supps can speed this up?
And most important, what is the worst case scenario when the liver values gets like this?

 

[jhferry]

Posted this in another thread, but got no replies... so here we go again:

This might not be a simple question with a simple answer, but in general, how long does it take to get back to normal if your LDL/HDL / cholesterol is banged up by SD and/or M1T?
What supps can speed this up?
And most important, what is the worst case scenario when the liver values gets like this?

Nobody seems to be responding from DS on this issue but from what it seems dont use long cycles of SD and dont follow up PCT with Rebound XT. I thought though that Nolva is tough on the liver so its a bit of a toss up.

 

[B5150]

Nobody seems to be responding from DS on this issue but from what it seems dont use long cycles of SD and dont follow up PCT with Rebound XT. I thought though that Nolva is tough on the liver so its a bit of a toss up.

It is not really a DS issue, but rather a methyl user issue to research. If you do a search under 'cholesterol', 'lipids', 'Red Yeast Rice', 'Policosanol', etc., you may find some helpful info on cholesterol.

Search for (anti-o's) ALA, r-ala, milk thistle, NAC, etc., for help on liver support.

 

[schlam_of]

Nobody seems to be responding from DS on this issue but from what it seems dont use long cycles of SD and dont follow up PCT with Rebound XT.

So is this to imply that Rebound XT can be harmful to cholestorol levels? Dont think ive heard that before..

 

[jhferry]

Its in some logs that using rebound right after SD can keep these lipid levels surpressed.

 

[Enigma76]

So is this to imply that Rebound XT can be harmful to cholestorol levels? Dont think ive heard that before..

The basic idea is that estrogen helps bring cholesterol back to "normal" range (whatever that may be for you, depending on diet/excersize/genetics). Rebound XT suppresses estrogen (its an AI) and thus could either A) worsen the lipid problem or B)not worsen but not relieve either.

That is the basic idea. However, whether this is true or not still hasnt been determined; there is some bloodwork from people doing SD and then rebound afterwards and having messed up lipids (thinking of Deoudes), however it is still unknown how much is from SD or from Rebound.

Also to note, cholesterol effects due to AAS can vary greatly from person to person, so you might not actually have any problem from an SD cycle followed with rebound. B5150 had pretty decent lipids after his SD cycle, while Deoudes had terrible. This one is really a personal thing, as in you will respond differently than others.

 

[StanChampion]

You also have to weight the fact that some of those guys that did SD and came out with bad lipid profiles were overweight to begin with. Some were over 20% BF. So they probably already had a pre-existing condition.

I did a 6 week SD cycle and 4 weeks of RXT. I did not get a blood test, but plan on it next time. I am an ecto/meso and have never had a BF% issue. I did do my BP and it was 110/68.

 

[jhferry]

It is not really a DS issue

Considering that SD was advertised as side free, and Rebound XT is being suggested by DS as PCT for SD, then I a believe it is a DS issue. The write ups on these products mention nothing of lipid problems or the rebound can make it worse. It should be addressed and they wont go anywhere near it. Maybe they arent sure how damaging this combo is, Im not saying its beig dodged but before I take my SD I want to hear it from the horses mouth exactly what this can do to you and the regiman to keep damage at a minium.

 

[size]

The cholesterol issue should not be a huge surprise. Most oral "agents" have a negative impact on cholesterol levels.

 

[rrgg]

Considering that SD was advertised as side free,

That's not right. Sledge said from the very beginning that he was concerned lipids could become an issue and needed further testing.

 

[ryansm]

Geeze, how many times. . .

This has been discussed an infinite number of times, it has been known FOR SOME TIME that AI's are not optimal for pct.

Research these things before USING them. I and others have posted plenty of helpful info.

 

[ryansm]

You also have to weight the fact that some of those guys that did SD and came out with bad lipid profiles were overweight to begin with. Some were over 20% BF. So they probably already had a pre-existing condition.

Who are you speaking of?

Regardless of ones health status, the fact still remains that they any 17aa oral will effect these levels.

I agree that people need to be optimal health before ever using these substances, for they are in greater danger if they are not.

 

[ryansm]

That's not right. Sledge said from the very beginning that he was concerned lipids could become an issue and needed further testing.

This is true.

 

[ryansm]

So is this to imply that Rebound XT can be harmful to cholestorol levels? Dont think ive heard that before..

Then you need to research more.

 

[StanChampion]

Who are you speaking of?

Regardless of ones health status, the fact still remains that they any 17aa oral will effect these levels.

I agree that people need to be optimal health before ever using these substances, for they are in greater danger if they are not.

szepano was in "mid 20's bf%" at the start.
That thread started alot of talk about it. I think there was a another guy who was up there in BF, but cannot recall his screen name.

Dmitry did well on his blood work and said he ate clean. Do not recall his BF.
However, he took the same stuff I took: sesathin, fish oil and lots of water.

True, that these oral 17aa's have a negative effect on your lipids. However, I think if you are already fairly lean and eat clean, you can greatly diminish and rebound quickly from any negative sides.

 

[ryansm]

True, that these oral 17aa's have a negative effect on your lipids. However, I think if you are already fairly lean and eat clean, you can greatly diminish and rebound quickly from any negative sides.

Not sure about greatly, but I do agree with you. The whole point of my posts on this topic are about preventative meaures.

If he is 20+% it was a bad decision.

 

[DmitryWI]

I'm on SD right now and I'll be doing blood work next week again after 3 weeks of SD...

 

[jhferry]

So what would you say would be an optimal BF level? What would be the best PCT product to use with SD If Rebound is not the answer? Nolva, 6 OxO? If Sledge did say he was concerned about lipids then I stand corrected. I still think the formal write ups on these products should be updated to reflect these things because idiots like myself would not know what a 17aa is. I should be able to know what I have to do to keep my damage safe just on the write ups alone. Not be a chemist.

 

[glenihan]

because idiots like myself would not know what a 17aa is

that's why everyone states time and again HOW important it is to research research research for MONTHS and MONTHS before putting any exogenous hormone into your body .. before i ever did anything i knew what a 17alpha akalyation entailed along with a million other things .. and i haven't taken chemistry since junior year of high school .. i know relatively nothing about chemistry in general .. but this stuff isn't very hard .. something methylated at the 17th position (like NEARLY every oral steriod is) is bad for your liver .. read the boards for 10 minutes and you'll know that

don't blame DS or the writeups because you didn't do enough research

 

[Ator]

My thread turned out great, but my initial questions have not been answered so BUMP on that... anyone?

 

[ryansm]

Well your questions can be found by searching.

As far as how long it takes, that depends on the person, but to put it in an average time limit, I would say around the same amount of time you were on. So if you did a 3 week cycle, by 3 weeks they should be close to normal again. It's also related to how fast your hpta recovers. If using an AI it would take that much longer.

As far as supps, I could go on all day, there have been sooooo many posts on this lately. Look at Deoudes bloodwork he posted in the DS forum, or any m1t bloodwork post, and you will find the answer.

As far as liver concerns, well jaundice would be a worry.

 

[jhferry]

don't blame DS or the writeups because you didn't do enough research

Im not blaming DS. New info is coming out on bloodwork, I just think the writeups should be updated. I havent taken my SD yet. Im doing my research.

 

[B5150]

My thread turned out great, but my initial questions have not been answered so BUMP on that... anyone?

You asked this:

This might not be a simple question with a simple answer, but in general, how long does it take to get back to normal if your LDL/HDL / cholesterol is banged up by SD and/or M1T?
What supps can speed this up?
And most important, what is the worst case scenario when the liver values gets like this?

You got this:

It is not really a DS issue, but rather a methyl user issue to research. If you do a search under 'cholesterol', 'lipids', 'Red Yeast Rice', 'Policosanol', etc., you may find some helpful info on cholesterol.

Search for (anti-o's) ALA, r-ala, milk thistle, NAC, etc., for help on liver support.

and you also got other feedback from pretty knowledgeable members.
And for emphasis on a very good point that you mentioned:

This might not be a simple question with a simple answer, but in general, how long does it take to get back to normal

...you sort of answered yourself.

It is your HDL/LDL. It is your responsibility to research until you get the definitive answers that you are looking for. But what you stated;"This might not be a simple question with a simple answer", is indeed the truth.

Sorry if it comes off rude, it is not my intent. Research!

 

[PIOTREK]

Newb's thoughts on this topic

While the knowledgeable members of this board have been invaluable in providing very useful info, we are not chemists and doctors. I believe this is what ator is getting at:

• DS (as much as I respect them and their products) should provide an updated dosing and ancillary regimen.
• Everybody knows that orals are harsh BUT, are there any studies that examine the use of such orals? Also, even though constant use of SD or any mthly without proper rest periods will damage the user’s cholesterol profile, will proper cycling and long rest periods still result in long term side effects?

I am not bashing DS in any way, they are a premier company. This topic should be discussed and researched by anyone who is considering such hormones. Because health is very important to me, I will be following a 3 week on, 3 month off schedule in an attempt to allow my body to fully recover from SD. This is my belief how steroids should be used as “performance enhancers� used on occasion to bust through plateaus. Sorry for the long post!

 

[B5150]

IMO, if you are overweight, pushing above 20% BF, then you most likely have a poor lipid profile, b/c your diet sucks.

tremendous assumption. We all know what happens when you ass-u-me...don't we?

 

[StanChampion]

tremendous assumption. We all know what happens when you ass-u-me...don't we?

lol yup, we can only speculate. That is why I prefaced it with the "IMO."
Meaning, in my opinion. However, again and I ASSUME here, most knowledgable people would speculate that it is not wise to be messing with aas orals when you are over 20% BF,whether it be from diet or genetics. But hey, that is just my assumption.

 

[ryansm]

Although I agree that individuals over 20%BF should not use steroids, this statement is absolutely false; "IMO, if you are overweight, pushing above 20% BF, then you most likely have a poor lipid profile, b/c your diet sucks.

 

[ryansm]

Everybody knows that orals are harsh BUT, are there any studies that examine the use of such orals?

Tons, search pub med.

 

[ryansm]

Also, even though constant use of SD or any mthly without proper rest periods will damage the user’s cholesterol profile, will proper cycling and long rest periods still result in long term side effects?

I can only speculate, but don't you think it's prudent (to say the least) to prevent any damage at all costs?

Lets get into some theory. The latest discussion on heart disease points its finger at the endothelial wall of the heart. Any damage/inflamation along this lining is a catch-all for LDL chol. HDL is responsible for clearing out the LDL. LDL causes plaque build-up, which over time can cause well all sorts of bad things, most specifically a heart attack.

Does AAS cause this damage? Who knows, but I would think that it doesn't help.

 

[ryansm]

You asked this:
You got this:
and you also got other feedback from pretty knowledgeable members.
And for emphasis on a very good point that you mentioned:...you sort of answered yourself.

It is your HDL/LDL. It is your responsibility to research until you get the definitive answers that you are looking for. But what you stated;"This might not be a simple question with a simple answer", is indeed the truth.

Sorry if it comes off rude, it is not my intent. Research!

Thank You.

 

[StanChampion]

Although I agree that individuals over 20%BF should not use steroids, this statement is absolutely false; "IMO, if you are overweight, pushing above 20% BF, then you most likely have a poor lipid profile, b/c your diet sucks.

While, the statement is broad, I still believe that the majority of people with a poor lipid profile and >20% BF is due to diet, followed be disease (diabetes,etc) and genetics.

 

[ryansm]

I would say genetics is the bigger player here, but I'm not discounting what you are saying.

 

[motiv8er]

It sounds like we need to be developing a lipid profile PCT, as well as our standard T based PCT. I am considering using TIGHT (2 bottles) alongside regular pretty high intensity cardio after my SD then m4ohn cycle. My goals post cycle are to continue hardening up my gains and of course bring my elevated lipid profile back to normal, healthy range. Out of curiousity, how many of us were doing reg cardio while on cycle? And to single out Lean One, you have a very healthy cycle mentality, do you know what your cholesterol is right now? I am very intersted in seeing what larger, non-cardio types vs leaner- heart healthier types ranges are. I need to also get my profiles checked.

Seeings how this is AM, we need to lead the way towards better results through research and poise. I must say this is a very insightful and new chapter (for myself) on why cardio is so important! I mean guys; our hearts is the very last muscle we are ever going to use.

The discussion I would find most helpful is making our PCT chems blend in with what our PCT goals are. Are we bulking or cutting? Which supps are known to help or might help. What are the possible reactions/ interactions of such aides. I know technically very little about RYR, polisocanal, niacin type regimins. I've always had great lipid profiles, but I've also made heart health part of the game. A great chest won't do you any good in the grave. New products= New game boys. Snooze you lose. The reason I've selected TIGHT as part of my lipid PCT is it contains gugglesterones. I am also looking for the cutting/energy benefits of such a product. I am happy to post all info once said plan has finished.

Motiv8er

 

[ryansm]

Well I would be more than happy to get with some of you guys on a collaborative effort to establsih new guidleines for the heart/liver pct's.

We could make it a sticky.

 

[Syr]

Then you need to research more.

I should be blind and dumb, but i cant find CLEAR bloodtests with lipid profiles for Rebound XT.
I would glad anyone that would point me in that direction.

 

[Syr]

I'm on SD right now and I'll be doing blood work next week again after 3 weeks of SD...

Cool bro
I'm going to finally get mines next week, after I end PCT (i pyramed RXT and I believe I have still some 1,4 in my veins ).

 

[Syr]

Geeze, how many times. . .

This has been discussed an infinite number of times, it has been known FOR SOME TIME that AI's are not optimal for pct.

Research these things before USING them. I and others have posted plenty of helpful info.

Yes, but RXT has been marketed mostly as a PCT compound, particularly as an alternative to Nolva and 6oxo, which are both positive on lipids (6oxo is good on the liver too).