Clomid 12.5 EOD: will LH and T levels remain elevated after?

[muchstronger2]

Hi,


I am 29 years old, been working out and running since I am 18, mostly bodyweight exercises when I workout. I am quite fit, and people see me built as a rubgyman, which I like. I am 5'10 and 181lbs.

I was given androgel for about a year when I was 14 as I was diagnosed slightly hypogonadal during puberty, to help with my development process.

However, I recall I wasn't given any PCT after that year, and it doesn't SEEM to have affected negatively my testosterone levels (always been very horny and quite muscular ever since).

Now I have been feeling lightly depressed for the past 5 years, but still have muscle mass and hornyness. I ran some bloodtests to see if hormones may be the culprit of my depression and lack of drive. Here are the results:


DHEA : 4000ng/mL (800-5600)
E2 : 20pg/mL (<56)
FSH : 4.6mIU/mL (0.7-11.1)
LH : 3.2mIU/mL (0.8-7.6)
Prolactin: 6.4ng/mL (2.5-17)
Total T : 599ng/dL (160-726)
Free T : 2.36ng/dL (0.45-4.2)


The levels are not bad and right at the median, but I still feel that LH is low, and that free T could be higher (endo told me LH varies during the day and it was just caught up at a low during the blood draw).


I still have that feeling that after my androgel cycle in my teens something was left unfinished, and that a PCT should have been ran to restore normal levels.

Will a mild Clomid cycle (12.5mg EOD) boost LH and T up to higher levels? Can I expect these levels to remain elevated after I go off Clomid?

Also, do I risk vision problems and floaters at that dosage for a month?


Thank you for all your appreciated feedback

 

[DennisTheDane]

I used google on this and found this. Maybe it will help you understanding what Clomid does

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate)
by Bill Roberts – Along with Nolvadex, Clomid is one of the two principal SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulators) used for enhanced recovery of testosterone production after anabolic steroid cycles.

To understand how Clomid can aid this process, let’s look at how natural testosterone production is regulated.

Testosterone production is regulated by a feedback loop which senses not only testosterone or other androgen levels, but also estrogen levels. This feedback loop includes the hypothalamus, the pituitary, and the testes (often referred to as the HPTA, or hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis.)

When the hypothalamus senses low estrogen levels and does not sense high androgen levels, it’s stimulated to signal the pituitary by producing more LHRH, which stands for LH releasing hormone. On receiving this signal, the pituitary produces more LH (luteinizing hormone) which in turn signals the testes to produce more testosterone.

During an anabolic steroid cycle, high androgen levels shut this process down entirely. If this is for only a relatively short period such as 8 weeks, this is not a real issue. Over a longer period of time, testicular atrophy might occur, however. That can be avoided with HCG usage. Something that cannot be avoided, however, is that the hypothalamus and pituitary respond not only according to the hormone levels which they sense at a given moment, but are affected in their response by their recent exposure. When that exposure has been an extended period of anabolic steroid use, responsiveness typically is poor even after anabolic steroid use has ceased.

Clomid, as does Nolvadex, works by occupying the binding sites of estrogen receptors of cells, without activating the receptors. This reduces the extent to which estradiol can activate these receptors. In the case of the hypothalamus, this leads to the hypothalamus “concluding” that estrogen levels are low. If androgen levels are not elevated, as indeed they should not be after an anabolic steroid cycle, the hypothalamus is then stimulated to produce LHRH. This will act to increase LH and restart natural testosterone production.

Clomid ordinarily is dosed at 50 mg/day. However, it’s important to note that clomiphene has a long half life. Where this has relevance is that when a daily dose is taken, the body will have not only that dose in it, but also an accumulated amount of about five days’ worth of previous doses as well. That’s fine: it results in correct blood levels. Where there can be a problem is when first starting use. If simply taking 50 mg/day from the beginning, there is no such buildup and levels will be low.

To account for this, 300 mg is taken on the first day, as three doses of 100 mg, or optionally six doses of 50 mg. This immediately gets levels to where they should be. Ongoing 50 mg/day dosing will maintain this level.

After day 1, doses of more than 50 mg are not needed and are not recommended. They will not improve results, but may increase adverse side effects.

Adverse side effects of Clomid can include increased emotionalism or vision disturbance. If vision disturbance is experienced, Clomid should be discontinued immediately.

Clomid rarely leads to libido issues, which can be a problem with Nolvadex. For this reason some prefer it to Nolvadex. Others, who do not have that issue with Nolvadex, may prefer that drug. Both are effective for restoring natural testosterone production. I have a slightly better opinion of Clomid for effectiveness, but where a person dislikes Clomid for emotional effects, or prefers Nolvadex for any reason, Nolvadex is a perfectly acceptable substitute.

Clomid differs from Nolvadex in that while SERMs are always anti-estrogenic in some tissues, they are estrogenic in others. Fortunately, both Clomid and Nolvadex are anti-estrogenic in the hypothalamus, making them useful for post-cycle therapy (PCT), and anti-estrogenic in breast tissue, making them useful as anti-gyno agents. Clomid however is estrogenic in the pituitary, which in some instances may even enhance its value for PCT. It’s likely estrogenic to at least some other neurons in the brain as well, causing increased emotionality. With regard to body fat and muscle, or any observable physical property, Clomid and Nolvadex have no other adverse estrogenic effects, but instead are useful anti-estrogens.

PCT with Clomid should begin as soon as androgen levels have dropped to normal, and continue until confident that natural testosterone production has been fully restored.

Clomid, properly, is a brand name: typically clomiphene citrate products are used, but popularly called Clomid. Clomiphene citrate is widely available both as a pharmaceutical and even more widely as a research chemical, often in liquid form for oral use.

Clomid can and usually should be used as the only SERM in PCT. In most instances, there is no point to combining with another SERM. Where a second SERM such as Nolvadex is combined with Clomid, each should be used at half dose rather than full dose. Using full dose of each does not provide enhanced efficacy and only increases risk of side effects.

Clomiphene citrate is the chemical name of active ingredient in Clomid. Clomid is a registered trademark of Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals in the United States and/or other countries

 

[afluck410]

If I'm reading this correctly, all your levels seem to be right where they're suppose to be.

 

[heckler7]

your test numbers are good, clomid is used immediately after cycle to help kick in your natural test production in an effort to save your gains. Taking clomid years later wont help your depression. hows your libido and whats going on in your life?

 

[muchstronger2]

If I'm reading this correctly, all your levels seem to be right where they're suppose to be.

Theoretically yes.

I'm seeing many reports of anabolic users who quit gear and even years after don't get back to where they were before.
My problem is: I have no comparaison point to "where I was before" as I had not reached my full potential when put on T.

Therefore: could it be that I have not recovered fully to where I should be, and that Clomid will put me there and I will remain there even after Clomid discontinuation?

 

[heckler7]

Theoretically yes.

I'm seeing many reports of anabolic users who quit gear and even years after don't get back to where they were before.
My problem is: I have no comparaison point to "where I was before" as I had not reached my full potential when put on T.

Therefore: could it be that I have not recovered fully to where I should be, and that Clomid will put me there and I will remain there even after Clomid discontinuation?

your numbers look good, your recovered. I dont think you depression is hormone related, but you could try taking hcg daily it will boost LH and Test. I strongly suggest you see a professional about your depression

 

[hide83]

I'm no doc so take this for what it's worth. You're hormonal levels are fine. Even if your test was 200 points higher before you would notice no difference as long as both numbers were in the normal physiological range. It sounds like you've convinced yourself that the issues you're having came from your treatment as a teen but I really doubt it. Depression is likely unrelated to your hormones and there's another root cause. Good luck- depression is a bitch. I'm a recovering alcoholic so I'm no stranger to it. Also clomid will probably make you feel crappier especially if your already emotionally unstable. Clomid makes a lot of dudes cry like women if they see a sappy commercial.

 

[criticalbench]

Your levels are fine.. your depression is due to something else. Speak with your endo if your concerned, don't self medicate a problem you don't have. If you want more free test, why not try something with 3,4 divinil in it, like testabolan?

 

[muchstronger2]

Thanks for your wise words guys!

I am sure you are right, and I might be trying to solve with an apparently easy route a condition that has a deeper underlying root cause.

I am pretty influenced by metrics, so if any report shows I am low, I will tend to believe and act and feel like I'm low.
I also agree with you that my numbers are rather fine and that it would take a substential increase to see a difference.

 

[rkc21]

As mentioned I don't think your test is contributing to depression. I recently posted (sorry can't post link because I don't have 100 posts) but it was last week about how clomid raised my test from 609 to 997. I don't feel any different in mood/depression. Also, my test has been as low as 300 but that was taken at 2pm, it was upper 400 around noon. The 609 and 997 were at 10-11am.

 

[muchstronger2]

I have decided to go on with clomid and aromasin to bump my test to the upper side of the physiological range.
I am planning to run clomid 12,5mg EOD.
Does that put me at risk for visual disturbance / long term impacts?

Or does that concern only people running PCTs at 100mg/day?

 

[NoAddedHmones]

I have decided to go on with clomid and aromasin to bump my test to the upper side of the physiological range.
I am planning to run clomid 12,5mg EOD.
Does that put me at risk for visual disturbance / long term impacts?

Or does that concern only people running PCTs at 100mg/day?

Pretty reckless idea tbh. you have really nothing to gain, only throwing your HPTA out of whack.

 

[muchstronger2]

Pretty reckless idea tbh. you have really nothing to gain, only throwing your HPTA out of whack.

Care to elaborate how a SERM and a suicidal aromatase inhibitor could drive anything "out of whack".
At worst I'm back to where I was before (ie now), at best I kick my HPTA higher.
These compounds don't induce negative feedback loop or make you build tolerance.

 

[Smont]

All your hormone levels are where there supposed to be. And just so you know being at the low end or high end of normal ranges does not necessarily mean you will feel any different in any aspect. Is it possible it could yes but your playing around with hormones and have no real reason other then your thinking its gonna help. You should go see a dr. First, there's a very good possibility that the way your feeling has zero to do with your hormones. None of this is ment to be rude, just trying to help your problem and i dont think your after the right answer.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Care to elaborate how a SERM and a suicidal aromatase inhibitor could drive anything "out of whack".
At worst I'm back to where I was before (ie now), at best I kick my HPTA higher.
These compounds don't induce negative feedback loop or make you build tolerance.

How have you come to these conclusions? You are preaching as if they are fact. Basically everything you just wrote is incorrect and more like a theory you have created in your head.

 

[rkc21]

I don't think it's a wreckless idea, I just think you will not get the results you're looking for. Listen, you saw exactly what I took and it bumped me up to 1000. You can do something similar with online stuff, or you can go see a doctor at a "anti aging"/TRT clinic and they will give you something similar. They want patients like you! I would just do the latter, seriously, set some money aside and most the time your labs are included in the fee. This way you can sleep better at night, will have doctor supervision, and will get your test up safely.

 

[muchstronger2]

How have you come to these conclusions? You are preaching as if they are fact. Basically everything you just wrote is incorrect and more like a theory you have created in your head.

Again, can you get beyond the personal debate and contradict me with actual scientific facts on hormones and compounds?

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Again, can you get beyond the personal debate and contradict me with actual scientific facts on hormones and compounds?

This is a fantastic video which explains how increasing hormone levels within a physiological range does not promote more anabolism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxwXIgnmAOI

Just think about it for a second, why do people use exogenous hormones to get into a supra-physiological range? there is a big difference between someone who is deficient in natural testosterone making gains from clomid by getting back into the required range vs a healthy person attempting to increase their levels within this range.

No negative feedback loop? really?

 

[hewhoisripped]

I don't think it's a wreckless idea, I just think you will not get the results you're looking for. Listen, you saw exactly what I took and it bumped me up to 1000. You can do something similar with online stuff, or you can go see a doctor at a "anti aging"/TRT clinic and they will give you something similar. They want patients like you! I would just do the latter, seriously, set some money aside and most the time your labs are included in the fee. This way you can sleep better at night, will have doctor supervision, and will get your test up safely.

I agree. It's not reckless, but probably pointless. Much better off investing in safer and cheaper supplements like BAIBA, caffeine, etc or going the whole mile and getting TRT (and all of the consequences that come with it).

 

[BRUstrong]

There is no way that a legit doctor would prescribe you anything for TRT with those levels. You do not need TRT. Clomid will help you if you have low levels to being with, which you don't. I've been on clomid at 50mg EOD for 2.5 years for TRT. I tested three times before beginning and my test was between 190-220 each time (I was 29 at the time). After starting clomid I average between 550-750 (based on multiple blood tests since starting). I treat with a urologist at the Cleveland Clinic. If you're wondering, I am on clomid and not test to maintain fertility.

 

[muchstronger2]

This is a fantastic video which explains how increasing hormone levels within a physiological range does not promote more anabolism.

Just think about it for a second, why do people use exogenous hormones to get into a supra-physiological range? there is a big difference between someone who is deficient in natural testosterone making gains from clomid by getting back into the required range vs a healthy person attempting to increase their levels within this range.

No negative feedback loop? really?

With Clomid? No.
On the contrary, it creates a positive feedback loop through E2 mimicking in the brain.

Any study that states otherwise?