Ok, so what's the verdict on SARM's?

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So, SARM's have been around widespread for about a year now and I am not seeing much in the way of compelling gains from them. I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.

I am sure that they are fine in some circumstances, but for all the hassle to the industry and the negatives (shut down, liver stress etc...) they don't seem worth taking, much less for companies that sell them.

Thoughts?
 
UncleSarm

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I am currently on an Osta cycle and so far, 10 days in I am pleased. I have lost almost an inch around my waist, my lower abs are starting to be visible and I think I look slightly bigger. I think a lot has to do with expectations and goals.

If you are looking to put on mass and look like Kai Green, then maybe SARMs are not the right tool. If you're looking to put on a little muscle and lose a little fat, then maybe they're the ticket. I think someone put it that SARMs are not as good as AAS, but they are not as bad either. I also think they are a good starting place for a beginner. Just my 2 cents.
 
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I liked Ostarine. It was not harsh but definitely let me gain some muscle and shed some fat. I was a little stronger than without but not to an extreme degree. AAS are definitely stronger, but as Ostarine was easy to run for 12 weeks with only the last weeks feeling lethargic I actually really enjoyed it. I missed the feeling of beeing ON however.
I will definitely try other SARMs too, but first I'll run some AAS I haven't run so far.
SARMs are better for beginners in my opinion and definitely have a place, just not as a replacement to AAS.
 
HardB0iled

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So, SARM's have been around widespread for about a year now and I am not seeing much in the way of compelling gains from them. I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.

I am sure that they are fine in some circumstances, but for all the hassle to the industry and the negatives (shut down, liver stress etc...) they don't seem worth taking, much less for companies that sell them.

Thoughts?
I'd say 14.5 lbs in 8 weeks on LGD and MK-677 is pretty compelling... And I'm not alone. Look a little deeper. There are many logs showing similar results.
 
DonnieM

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I'd say 14.5 lbs in 8 weeks on LGD and MK-677 is pretty compelling... And I'm not alone. Look a little deeper. There are many logs showing similar results.
Not to bash but you ran it alongside Trest also? :) I gained 6 lbs on my Osta 10 week and that was on maint. kcal or slightly above.
 
yates84

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So, SARM's have been around widespread for about a year now and I am not seeing much in the way of compelling gains from them. I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.

I am sure that they are fine in some circumstances, but for all the hassle to the industry and the negatives (shut down, liver stress etc...) they don't seem worth taking, much less for companies that sell them.

Thoughts?
Then your diet and training wasn't on point or you took a bunk product from an underrated company. There are multiple sarms users on this board that have great sucess with sarms, especially osta. Dma378 logged OL osta and his results were more than impressive. I get that your company makes andros and that's great, they are a big part of the supplement industry. Sarms have still earned there place in bodybuilding. I mean come on, osta is about to be FDA approved!
 
HardB0iled

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Not to bash but you ran it alongside Trest also? :) I gained 6 lbs on my Osta 10 week and that was on maint. kcal or slightly above.
Only introduced Tr3st at week 6 to combat lethargy. Was already seeing significant gains by then. ...but fair enough.
 
yates84

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Only introduced Tr3st at week 6 to combat lethargy. Was already seeing significant gains by then. ...but fair enough.
Still impressive imo
 
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I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.
You take a pure anabolic (so no androgenic) compound and expect to feel anything? Haha :D
No, you won't feel anything from Ostarine. But you will see the changes after the cycle if you did everything right ;)
 
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I have had positive results with a few compounds!!
 
Toren

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So, SARM's have been around widespread for about a year now and I am not seeing much in the way of compelling gains from them. I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.

I am sure that they are fine in some circumstances, but for all the hassle to the industry and the negatives (shut down, liver stress etc...) they don't seem worth taking, much less for companies that sell them.

Thoughts?
If the expectations for SARM's are in line with what they are meant to do, most people will have a positive result. If people are expecting to 'blow up' and feel 'on' while taking SARM's, they may very well be let down. SARM's are meant to stimulate muscle and bone anabolism (among other things), while having a lower incidence of side-effects when compared to anabolic/androgenic steroids; They do that. Personally speaking, I'm of the belief that too many people have no idea how to train or diet, and as such, use strong steroids as a crutch to finally see some gains. For some people, the steroids are just covering up for a lackluster approach to fitness or bodybuilding.

I have used both Ostarine (2x solo + while on cycle 1x) and now LGD (last days of 5 week run). I can tell you that my results are not that far off of my experience with A:A oral steroids. For me, SARM's provide me with the edge I need to compliment my aggressive training and take me to the next level. I have trained naturally for the better part of my years lifting, so I know what to expect from my body in a completely natural state. They do this without affecting my hairline, my appetite, my skin and also while showing no visible signs of issues with internal organs or elevated blood pressure. There may be some skewed cholesterol and liver values from my SARM's experience but it is nothing that acutely affects me in any way shape or form or has any impact on training or appetite. I also always take cycle support compounds while running SARM's. My first Ostarine run affected my libido but I was not using a 'Test' base and I lowered my Estradiol too much with the use of topical formestane. I'd also like to add that on my current LGD/MK-677 run I am up 11+ lbs. and I am noticeably leaner with absolutely zero noticeable side-effects. I think those are some compelling results and none of my A:A steroid runs could compete with that when you factor in the lack of negative side-effects. The 2-3 lbs. I gained from MK-677 came before I added LGD into the mix.

The hassle to the industry is maybe something that can be acknowledged on some level. It's kind of a tough one to qualify though because the 'supplement' industry in the U.S. is (as you already know) fairly heavily regulated. There are some positive things to take away from that, but let's not for a second think it doesn't have a lot to do with big pharmaceutical companies wanting to have the market cornered on just about everything they can get their hands on. In the end though, I don't believe for a second that the inventors of syntheticly-derived SARM's didn't allow the industry and all of the consumers in said industry to be its personal guinea pig. Make no mistake, they have been watching and reading and using the masses as a way to have free trials of the compounds in question.

If over the next few years SARM's continue to be developed and perfected, and I see no reason why they would not, they should begin to outclass a lot of old school steroids when you factor in the results to side-effects ratio. You may never have a SARM that blows you up like Dbol and you may never have a SARM that can shred you up like Trenbolone, but you may also not have to worry about severe bloating and gyno, or night sweats,Tren cough and insomnia.

There's an old saying that goes something like this, 'you can't expect all of the good without some of the bad'; That holds true for SARM's as well. They may not be without side-effects and while some users may report negative results, in the end they are on the right track as far as providing some gains while trying to mitigate some of the negatives that always come along with all of those positives. Unfortunately for the masses, the good ones will soon all be under 'lock and key', while the not so good ones will be readily available.
 
NoAddedHmones

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So, SARM's have been around widespread for about a year now and I am not seeing much in the way of compelling gains from them. I admit I tried Ostarine and I didn't feel much from it. Looks like another overly hyped category.

I am sure that they are fine in some circumstances, but for all the hassle to the industry and the negatives (shut down, liver stress etc...) they don't seem worth taking, much less for companies that sell them.

Thoughts?
What do you recommend as an alternative?
 
NoAddedHmones

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Olympus Labs vs. LG Sciences ... Mooortal Combaaat!! :duel:

<pulls up chair><grabs popcorn>
Lol that wasn't an inflammatory comment. OP said discuss i like discussion
 
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If the expectations for SARM's are in line with what they are meant to do, most people will have a positive result. If people are expecting to 'blow up' and feel 'on' while taking SARM's, they may very well be let down. SARM's are meant to stimulate muscle and bone anabolism (among other things), while having a lower incidence of side-effects when compared to anabolic/androgenic steroids; They do that. Personally speaking, I'm of the belief that too many people have no idea how to train or diet, and as such, use strong steroids as a crutch to finally see some gains. For some people, the steroids are just covering up for a lackluster approach to fitness or bodybuilding.

I have used both Ostarine (2x solo + while on cycle 1x) and now LGD (last days of 5 week run). I can tell you that my results are not that far off of my experience with A:A oral steroids. For me, SARM's provide me with the edge I need to compliment my aggressive training and take me to the next level. I have trained naturally for the better part of my years lifting, so I know what to expect from my body in a completely natural state. They do this without affecting my hairline, my appetite, my skin and also while showing no visible signs of issues with internal organs or elevated blood pressure. There may be some skewed cholesterol and liver values from my SARM's experience but it is nothing that acutely affects me in any way shape or form or has any impact on training or appetite. I also always take cycle support compounds while running SARM's. My first Ostarine run affected my libido but I was not using a 'Test' base and I lowered my Estradiol too much with the use of topical formestane. I'd also like to add that on my current LGD/MK-677 run I am up 11+ lbs. and I am noticeably leaner with absolutely zero noticeable side-effects. I think those are some compelling results and none of my A:A steroid runs could compete with that when you factor in the lack of negative side-effects. The 2-3 lbs. I gained from MK-677 came before I added LGD into the mix.

The hassle to the industry is maybe something that can be acknowledged on some level. It's kind of a tough one to qualify though because the 'supplement' industry in the U.S. is (as you already know) fairly heavily regulated. There are some positive things to take away from that, but let's not for a second think it doesn't have a lot to do with big pharmaceutical companies wanting to have the market cornered on just about everything they can get their hands on. In the end though, I don't believe for a second that the inventors of syntheticly-derived SARM's didn't allow the industry and all of the consumers in said industry to be its personal guinea pig. Make no mistake, they have been watching and reading and using the masses as a way to have free trials of the compounds in question.

If over the next few years SARM's continue to be developed and perfected, and I see no reason why they would not, they should begin to outclass a lot of old school steroids when you factor in the results to side-effects ratio. You may never have a SARM that blows you up like Dbol and you may never have a SARM that can shred you up like Trenbolone, but you may also not have to worry about severe bloating and gyno, or night sweats,Tren cough and insomnia.

There's an old saying that goes something like this, 'you can't expect all of the good without some of the bad'; That holds true for SARM's as well. They may not be without side-effects and while some users may report negative results, in the end they are on the right track as far as providing some gains while trying to mitigate some of the negatives that always come along with all of those positives. Unfortunately for the masses, the good ones will soon all be under 'lock and key', while the not so good ones will be readily available.
I'm not on ADD medication anymore. TLDR
 
LG Sciences

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Good feedback. What kind of dosing are you guys taking?
 
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I don't fight other companies. Most of them are my customers or may be some day. I have been on this board for so long that I learned that we are all right sometimes and wrong at times. It's life and it happens. There is no LG vs. anyone in my eyes. Some companies I like more than others but each has their own merits.
 
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If the expectations for SARM's are in line with what they are meant to do, most people will have a positive result. If people are expecting to 'blow up' and feel 'on' while taking SARM's, they may very well be let down. SARM's are meant to stimulate muscle and bone anabolism (among other things), while having a lower incidence of side-effects when compared to anabolic/androgenic steroids; They do that. Personally speaking, I'm of the belief that too many people have no idea how to train or diet, and as such, use strong steroids as a crutch to finally see some gains. For some people, the steroids are just covering up for a lackluster approach to fitness or bodybuilding.

I have used both Ostarine (2x solo + while on cycle 1x) and now LGD (last days of 5 week run). I can tell you that my results are not that far off of my experience with A:A oral steroids. For me, SARM's provide me with the edge I need to compliment my aggressive training and take me to the next level. I have trained naturally for the better part of my years lifting, so I know what to expect from my body in a completely natural state. They do this without affecting my hairline, my appetite, my skin and also while showing no visible signs of issues with internal organs or elevated blood pressure. There may be some skewed cholesterol and liver values from my SARM's experience but it is nothing that acutely affects me in any way shape or form or has any impact on training or appetite. I also always take cycle support compounds while running SARM's. My first Ostarine run affected my libido but I was not using a 'Test' base and I lowered my Estradiol too much with the use of topical formestane. I'd also like to add that on my current LGD/MK-677 run I am up 11+ lbs. and I am noticeably leaner with absolutely zero noticeable side-effects. I think those are some compelling results and none of my A:A steroid runs could compete with that when you factor in the lack of negative side-effects. The 2-3 lbs. I gained from MK-677 came before I added LGD into the mix.

The hassle to the industry is maybe something that can be acknowledged on some level. It's kind of a tough one to qualify though because the 'supplement' industry in the U.S. is (as you already know) fairly heavily regulated. There are some positive things to take away from that, but let's not for a second think it doesn't have a lot to do with big pharmaceutical companies wanting to have the market cornered on just about everything they can get their hands on. In the end though, I don't believe for a second that the inventors of syntheticly-derived SARM's didn't allow the industry and all of the consumers in said industry to be its personal guinea pig. Make no mistake, they have been watching and reading and using the masses as a way to have free trials of the compounds in question.

If over the next few years SARM's continue to be developed and perfected, and I see no reason why they would not, they should begin to outclass a lot of old school steroids when you factor in the results to side-effects ratio. You may never have a SARM that blows you up like Dbol and you may never have a SARM that can shred you up like Trenbolone, but you may also not have to worry about severe bloating and gyno, or night sweats,Tren cough and insomnia.

There's an old saying that goes something like this, 'you can't expect all of the good without some of the bad'; That holds true for SARM's as well. They may not be without side-effects and while some users may report negative results, in the end they are on the right track as far as providing some gains while trying to mitigate some of the negatives that always come along with all of those positives. Unfortunately for the masses, the good ones will soon all be under 'lock and key', while the not so good ones will be readily available.
Good post. Very intelligent. I don't think pharma really cares about the community but it is a black eye when we sell stuff that isn't DSHEA compliant. Especially at this point. SARM's are and never have been legal to sell. They are not natural and that is what makes something a dietary supplement.

I think at high doses they do share much of the negatives as AAS (hairloss, liver stress, shut down...). They will certainly evolve over time and I guess the only positive is that they aren't schedule III drugs. I am all for legalization, so anything that isn't on that list is a good thing (even if they can't be sold as supplements).

The only issue I have is that at the doses being sold there is little to no data on what higher doses of the compounds will do. I am sure they are relatively safe but one never knows...especially with the effects from S4 on vision.
 
Toren

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I'm not on ADD medication anymore. TLDR
It's okay, you're not missing much. Just a guy with a pizza avatar taking 'bout some stuff. Besides, I hear that guys with food avatars are a little bit silly anyways.

Good feedback. What kind of dosing are you guys taking?
Ostarine: 1st run - 25mg for ~ 8 weeks (20 the 1st 2 weeks) / 2nd run - 20mg for 30 days (bridged into something stronger. In my opinion 20 was a better dose than 25 and on my next Ostarine run, I will try 15mg ED.

LGD: 8-12 mg ED
 
NoAddedHmones

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I don't fight other companies. Most of them are my customers or may be some day. I have been on this board for so long that I learned that we are all right sometimes and wrong at times. It's life and it happens. There is no LG vs. anyone in my eyes. Some companies I like more than others but each has their own merits.
Exactly how i feel. I was more gearing my question towards any new types of compounds coming out this year as an alternative to the now pretty much withdrawn SARM market.

Btw my anecdote using 5mg osta with recovering from a near death golden staph infection was very positive. I lost 11kg in 3 weeks in hospital and managed to regain around 8 of then in the following 7 weeks while i had an iv antibiotic drip and not training.
 
Toren

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Good post. Very intelligent. I don't think pharma really cares about the community but it is a black eye when we sell stuff that isn't DSHEA compliant. Especially at this point. SARM's are and never have been legal to sell. They are not natural and that is what makes something a dietary supplement.

I think at high doses they do share much of the negatives as AAS (hairloss, liver stress, shut down...). They will certainly evolve over time and I guess the only positive is that they aren't schedule III drugs. I am all for legalization, so anything that isn't on that list is a good thing (even if they can't be sold as supplements).
I can't completely disagree with your statement but I think that the list of DSHEA compliant compounds is a bit misguided. Such is life though. Of course, the flip side of that is an abundance of companies that sell 'natural' compounds with ridiculous claims attached to them. Or, companies that sell natural compounds and label then with names that indicate they might be steroids or act like real anabolic steroids or provide results comparitive to real gear. I think the industry preys on the lack of knowledge that most consumers have and that in and of itself could also be considered a black eye. In the end though, I have no problem with companies pushing the envelope as far as it can be pushed and I believe it is as it always has been and always should be - incumbent upon the 'user' to know what they are taking and why they are taking it. I also believe that exploration of natural supplements is a huge part of the industry and I applaud companies that are continuing to explore that avenue.

I don't for a second think that SARMs are without negative side-effects and infact I always suggest taking support products while using them. People need to realize that they are not without their negative attributes. Having said that, I consider my dosing of SARMs to be on the higher end of what is suggested to be taken and I have not seen the negative sides that I have seen with AAS usage; There are some, but not nearly to the same degree. No doubt there are always exceptions to every rule but from my research, both direct and indirect, the sides are much less than AAS. I'm sure there are people out there that are taking crazy doses of SARMs but in doing so, their actions are indicative that they should be taking a stronger compound. They may well be misusing the substance at that point in time. I have also noticed a trend of late, and that trend says that people are realizing that they can still get positive results from SARMs while taking less than previously thought. With any substance, there is a fine line between risk and reward and while that line may very well be different for every user, sometimes the line needs to be pushed so that people have a greater understanding of the limitations of what they are taking.
 
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I agree 100%. I wish the claims would be toned down. I have really tried to keep the claims down to a minimum when I was running LG's marketing over the past years. I used to think that crazy claims were the way to make people interested, but I learned that solid claims that I could stand behind were much better than over the top.

Yes, there is a fine line with risk vs. reward but I also know that each person is different. I truly didn't see results with much of anything until I started mega-dosing. That's because I am a fast metabolizer of things.

They just discovered a genotype for people who need high doses of hormones. I am certainly in that group.
 
T-Bone

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I agree 100%. I wish the claims would be toned down. I have really tried to keep the claims down to a minimum when I was running LG's marketing over the past years. I used to think that crazy claims were the way to make people interested, but I learned that solid claims that I could stand behind were much better than over the top.

Yes, there is a fine line with risk vs. reward but I also know that each person is different. I truly didn't see results with much of anything until I started mega-dosing. That's because I am a fast metabolizer of things.

They just discovered a genotype for people who need high doses of hormones. I am certainly in that group.
Link to that study!.
 
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Toren - Very well written and I agree!
 
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I mean come on, osta is about to be FDA approved!
Really? Does that mean it'll ever be able to be sold again in a "normal fashion"?

Side note: I know nothing about SARMs other than they used to be sold by OL UK.
 
yates84

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Really? Does that mean it'll ever be able to be sold again in a "normal fashion"?

Side note: I know nothing about SARMs other than they used to be sold by OL UK.
As soon as it's approved by the FDA it will be a scheduled substance and companies would have to be absolutely stupid to sell it anymore. I can see it being sold as an rc but definitely not capped.
 
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For sure. It is already technically illegal of course but once a script **** will hit the fan.
 
Dma378

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I gained 19lbs. on Osta in a deficit. Definitely better than any AAS out there without a single side effect. Oh and I kept 22 of those 19 lbs.
 
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Ostar1ne > Tren Ace

LGD > Anadrol

RAD > Dbol

Meth > Coke
 
Bigdumogre

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Solid thread actually

On osta ATM and at 15mg not much difference but at 20mg for a week and loving it.
 
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That is crazy. 19lbs is remarkable. Again so much is dependent on genetics. I am looking for the article talking about fast vs slow metabolizers of AAS. Even our prohormones I have to take 500+ mg to see a result. I always did the best with methyl PH products due to the metabolic resistance.
 
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That is crazy. 19lbs is remarkable. Again so much is dependent on genetics. I am looking for the article talking about fast vs slow metabolizers of AAS. Even our prohormones I have to take 500+ mg to see a result. I always did the best with methyl PH products due to the metabolic resistance.
Pretty sure he was joking.
 
UncleSarm

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Currently on Osta at 25mg. If the scales are to be believed, I have added about 3.7 lbs at 10 days in. Diet is roughly at maintenance, +/- 100 calories per day, with the exception of the day that ... umm ... I was 1,000 calories over maintenance. But we do not talk about that day.
 
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My wife put on 8 pounds on osta and rad, not joking at all. She dropped 4 or 5% bodyfat as well. Say what you want about sarms but I know that they are the real deal. Those not making gains on them are either taking bunk product, don't know how to train, or don't know how to properly diet.
 
Bigdumogre

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My wife put on 8 pounds on osta and rad, not joking at all. She dropped 4 or 5% bodyfat as well. Say what you want about sarms but I know that they are the real deal. Those not making gains on them are either taking bunk product, don't know how to train, or don't know how to properly diet.
Havent weighed myself but looking in the mirror I have changed a lot on osta over 5 weeks. Don't want the next 3 weeks to ever end
 
yates84

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Havent weighed myself but looking in the mirror I have changed a lot on osta over 5 weeks. Don't want the next 3 weeks to ever end
Nice! I enjoyed my last osta run, added a few pounds to all my major lifts while in a 1000 calorie deficit.
 
Bigdumogre

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Nice! I enjoyed my last osta run, added a few pounds to all my major lifts while in a 1000 calorie deficit.
Tomorrow gonna be that low on cals. Wish I bumped up to 20mg sooner
 
UncleSarm

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My wife put on 8 pounds on osta and rad, not joking at all. She dropped 4 or 5% bodyfat as well. Say what you want about sarms but I know that they are the real deal. Those not making gains on them are either taking bunk product, don't know how to train, or don't know how to properly diet.
Whoa! This is fantastic! How long was her cycle?
 
yates84

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Dang that's a HUGE deficit!. Wouldn't want you to disappear bro!.
I pretty much did disappear lol weighed 150 and was 6 or 7% body fat. Hit a 435 pound deadlift and a 385 pound squat at 150 pounds. Not huge numbers but I was happy with them
 
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Whoa! This is fantastic! How long was her cycle?
Rad 4/8/8/8/8
Osta 5/5/5/5/10/10/10/10

The composition changes were very impressive over 8 weeks. She posted them in our training log if you're interested.
 
T-Bone

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I pretty much did disappear lol weighed 150 and was 6 or 7% body fat. Hit a 435 pound deadlift and a 385 pound squat at 150 pounds. Not huge numbers but I was happy with them
That's a great accomplishment at that weight. You should eat more, forget about the abs and get into strength training and maybe power-lifting. Seems like you might be suited for it. I guess if you like bodybuilding stay with that, but I'm just saying you might be pretty good at or have more of the genetics for something like power-lifting, strength training, or strong man.
 
UncleSarm

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Rad 4/8/8/8/8
Osta 5/5/5/5/10/10/10/10

The composition changes were very impressive over 8 weeks. She posted them in our training log if you're interested.
Do you have the link to the training log handy? I would be curious to know how much of the change occurred while taking Rad + Osta and how much while taking Osta alone. Also was her diet on caloric maintenance or above/below?
 
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