First PH Cycle Advice - 4-Andro + Epi-Andro

[saywutrly]

I have just begun my first PH cycle. I'm running 50mg 4-Andro and 50mg Epi-Andro twice a day. The version I obtained also has 15mg 6,7-dihydroxybergamottin and 5mg piperine per cap. Per the advice of one of my mentors, I will be running this same dosage through the entirety of the cycle. Through research and what I was supplementing previously, I have amassed and am taking the following support protocol once daily in the morning:

Optimum Nutrition Opti-Men multivitamin
Vitamin C 1000mg
Chromium Picolinate 800mcg w/Zinc picolinate 15mg
Multi-strain probiotic complex
Fish Oil - 647mg EPA, 253mg DHA
NAC 600mg
Milk Thistle 1300mg std for 650mg Silymarin
Turmeric 300mg extract + 100mg powder
Magnesium Malate - 930mg malic acid + 200mg magnesium
GABA 750mg
5-HTP 100mg

I will be obtaining an AI to run at a low dose as I am unable to decide whether or not I'm feeling gyno effects. I'm quite sure that my nips are more sensitive, so I don't want to risk it. I am also planning on picking up a ZMA complex for nighttime when I visit my local supp outlet next.

Are there any holes in my support protocol or any other advice that anyone has for this cycle for a newbie such as myself? Any help is greatly appreciated. I tried to do all of the research I could before asking so hopefully I'm not causing anyone to be too redundant. Lastly, should I start logging this run for the community here or is this combo well-researched enough that we could do without that?

 

[saywutrly]

Sorry, everyone. If a Mod sees this please feel free to move it to the Cycle Info subforum. I just saw those. Thank you!

 

[123abcabcabc]

You won't notice much from such low dosages. Anything is possible for a first cycle though...

 

[saywutrly]

I was just going by the bottle recommendation. My logic was that since they both say1-2 caps twice a day, then one of each twice a day would be a decent amount. What do you recommend?

 

[anab0lix]

I would sell those and get transdermal 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA


What are you expecting from this cycle?

I think those doses are way to low. People run epiandro in the 200-500+

And 4-AD conversion rate is very low. You'll want to dose that way higher as well..

 

[123abcabcabc]

I was just going by the bottle recommendation. My logic was that since they both say1-2 caps twice a day, then one of each twice a day would be a decent amount. What do you recommend?

At least 300mg-500mg of each for a beginner cycle.

 

[saywutrly]

10-4. I will have to reassess this dosing big time. Since I'm already underway I can try transdermals next time. As far as goals, I just want to cut a bit so I gain some definition. I don't expect any big gains - I just want my gains to be leaner than they are now.

 

[moleculargnz]

how long ago did you start your cycle? Having orals and transdermals is a great combo imo because you'll get a more rapid dose from the capsules but then a more extended release from the transdermals. Great way to keep hormones elevated throughout the day and it gives you some flexibility with your dosing. I'd continue with what you've got but add in transdermal 4-andro and/or td 1-andro to run your cycle at higher doses. As stated above, those doses probably wont do much, if you're gonna do a cycle might as well do it right!

 

[saywutrly]

I actually just started, so this is a great idea to combine. Is there a section of the site where I can get recommendations on patches? I think I saw a no-sourcing warning on the Welcome thread, but I don't know anyone local to ask about those.

 

[anab0lix]

Lol patches? They're sold in gel like solution that you rub in to the skin.

 

[saywutrly]

I've had my past issues - I definitely know what a transdermal patch is. I'm asking where is a reputable place to order them, please. I don't see them at any site I typically use.

 

[anab0lix]

I don't think you understood what we meant. We were talking about transdermal 1-dhea and 4-dhea gels, not patches.

Unless you're talking about testosterone patches...

 

[saywutrly]

Oh snap. I did misunderstand. Sorry about that! I have seen TD patches advertised on banner ads in some forums claiming all types of contents - I figured this is to what you were referring. I didn't know that there were also gels. That sounds like it would end up being a better deal anyway. Larger amounts are usually cheaper than anything pre-dosed. Then I would re-phrase my question, who has a quality TD gel?

 

[moleculargnz]

You should look into Alpha Gainz, they have a really good td line and they use salvo as the carrier which is what Iron Legion used back when they were still around. Their Stano td is only $20 from most retailers and its 100mg of epiandro per serving for 30 days

 

[anab0lix]

Primeval labs has the best 4-ad deal it seems. And alpha gainz 1-dhea.

 

[saywutrly]

Excellent. Does the TD form dose the same as the oral, meaning I'd still want my daily intake to be at least 300mg of each compound?

 

[moleculargnz]

Yeah you'd get a solid run at 300mg of each

 

[bananagains]

Lmao at andros

 

[delsolrob]

I'll have to check out the Primeval 4-Androderm. But, I have not found any other td carriers that compete with Iron Legion Salvo...that's been my favorite carrier so far. That's the carrier used by Alpha Gainz for their transdermals.

 

[anab0lix]

Primeval also has tri-dermal which is 1dhea, 4dhea, and epi-andro

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Lmao at andros

Why? Are they the most "mild"? Sure. Can they be more expensive per 'gainz'? Sure. But do they "work"? Yup:

Study Says: Prohormone "1-Andro" Works, But It's Bad for You! Plus: What About Other Prohormones or Steroids Such As Androstenedione, DHEA, Testosterone & DECA? - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

And I personally did really well on a 1-DHEA & 4-DHEA cycle.

Least sides too - important for some.

 

[yates84]

Why? Are they the most "mild"? Sure. Can they be more expensive per 'gainz'? Sure. But do they "work"? Yup:

Study Says: Prohormone "1-Andro" Works, But It's Bad for You! Plus: What About Other Prohormones or Steroids Such As Androstenedione, DHEA, Testosterone & DECA? - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

And I personally did really well on a 1-DHEA & 4-DHEA cycle.

Least sides too - important for some.

Don't listen to that kid, he is fuking 19!

 

[Audioph1x]

Why? Are they the most "mild"? Sure. Can they be more expensive per 'gainz'? Sure. But do they "work"? Yup:

Study Says: Prohormone "1-Andro" Works, But It's Bad for You! Plus: What About Other Prohormones or Steroids Such As Androstenedione, DHEA, Testosterone & DECA? - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

And I personally did really well on a 1-DHEA & 4-DHEA cycle.

Least sides too - important for some.

For sure. He's asking about a first cycle bananagains. He's gonna make solid gains on 1 ad and 4 ad no doubt. Sometimes you gotta weigh risk vs. reward especially since he has never run anything before.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Don't listen to that kid, he is fuking 19!

Ahhhhh... never mind then!

Anyone remember that song from Paul Hardcastle? LOL

 

[saywutrly]

Thanks for having my back, new brothers! You're all correct. The risk/reward ratio and sides have weighed in on this, plus the fact that I just want a little more, better results. And the cost wasn't THAT bad on these - I got a Black Friday BOGO from my favorite local retailer's website. I used to think that the biggest and baddest automatically equated the best when I was 19. It's funny what five-six years will change. One piece of advice bananagains, never, ever pick up hard drugs with that attitude.

That said, anab0lix, the tri-dermal looked very appealing, but it is considerably more expensive than the Stano TD/4-Andro TD per mg.

I've started 0.3mg of Arimidex every other day as well. If my on-cycle support looks good, what do y'all recommend for PCT so that I can prepare? Legality isn't a concern as much as reducing ill effects on the body whilst keeping my gains.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I've started 0.3mg of Arimidex every other day as well. If my on-cycle support looks good, what do y'all recommend for PCT so that I can prepare? Legality isn't a concern as much as reducing ill effects on the body whilst keeping my gains.

Well, you are really running two 'Hormone Bases' with 4-DHEA and Epiandro. Depending on how high you dose the Epiandro, you *may* get something out of it strength wise - but both of those are usually run to counteract lethargy from other compounds...for instance, sticking with the DHEAs, 1-Andro.

Epiandro also imparts some AI benefits on it's own, so I personally wouldn't be running the A-dex for a cycle like this. Unless way out of whack and causing problems - Estrogen does a lot of good.

I would grab some 1-Andro and add that at at least 330mg/Day oral, or a little less for trans-dermal/sub-lingual (no one seems to know how to convert 330mg to TD/SL equivalents ) 4-DHEA just can't convert enough to equal super-physiological amounts of Testosterone.

Oh, PCT....

A SERM, IMO two - Clomid/Nolva. 6 weeks at std dosing protocol, last two EOD. May be overkill, but I like stacking the deck in my favor when it comes to my nuts.

 

[saywutrly]

For the conversion, one would need to have some research which shows the spread in difference between bioavailability of the oral versions versus that of the transdermal or subbed versions, eh?

I had read (I tried to post links to my research, but I need 100 post count before I can) that the 4-DHEA can be estrogenic. My concern was that after increasing to 200mg/each/day I had noticed the sensitive/itchy/tingly nips which I was warned signaled the start of gyno. It had subsided by the morning after the first A-dex dose. Perhaps I jumped the gun and this was just due to my body getting used to the compounds?

And duly noted about these being two bases. If I were to run 200mg/day/each of the Epi and 4-DHEA and then invest in 1-DHEA TD instead of the others to the tune of 300mg/day, would that make for a better-balanced stack? I'd like to keep this as dry as possible.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Hey, if you say you felt breast tissue related sides, I'm not going to tell you not to run something. But I just know that when I did my first 4-AD containing cycle, I too was all paranoid about gyno. Best advice I was given was "don't check your nipples all the damn time, and give yourself "gyno"" I did 3 Tabs/Day of AMS 4-AD with no problem. Best guess is that's anywhere from 60-150mg sub-lingually (it's a prop blend, with most of it being the RDe delivery system). I would definitely add 1-Andro, it has an actual University study showing it's effectiveness.

 

[saywutrly]

LOL! I will take that advice as well. I have it around, so I'll give it a break. I can always run it again if the symptoms come back in force - I'll use the IT mantra: If it doesn't repeat itself, it isn't a problem. And right on. I will add in the 1-Andro instead of more Epi. Thanks again for your help, everyone! This is the best thing about the training/gaining community. We're all in it to help one another.

 

[NattyBoy]

Lmao at andros

Yea I'd skip all the 1-andro, 4-andro and epiandro stuff and go with halodrol or epistane...Epiandro would be nice to have to run as a test base though.

 

[yates84]

Yea I'd skip all the 1-andro, 4-andro and epiandro stuff and go with halodrol or epistane...Epiandro would be nice to have to run as a test base though.

Have you ever ran any andros? You can gain just as much strength and weight on 1 andro as you can on epi or halo and the andros are not methylated so you can run them longer and at higher doses. They definitely work so don't dismiss them entirely

 

[BamBam0319]

Lmao at andros

Lmao at you bro....
You ran one BS cycle of a crap load of methylated compounds, skipped a proper PCT, and now you're posting on everyone's threads spewing out advice like you're the resident guru of anabolics.
Leave it to the people who have actually run these things and have experience with what they're discussing.

 

[moleculargnz]

Yeah I gained a solid 10 lbs off a 7 week 4-andro/epiandro stack with zero bf gain. Deadlift went from 495 - 525, I could only squat 405 for a few reps and now I'm doing it for multiple sets, and bench went from 275 for 5-6 reps to 315 for multiple sets of 3 paused reps. Definitely not something to be "lmao-ing" about. Andros are pretty legit in my experience

 

[bananagains]

Don't listen to that kid, he is fuking 19!

18*

 

[BamBam0319]

Ran epiandro at a very low dose as a finisher to my last cycle, busted all my plateaus. Deadlift went 375 for 5 to 425 for 5 for example. Everything else shot up too. This was at 150mg epiandro. LMAO.

 

[saywutrly]

Yeah, I've never LMAOd at anything strong enough to keep me awake at night at the bottle dose. I can sleep after and/or through damn near anything but I have to dose my evening right when I get home from work if I want to sleep by midnight.

I'm really just happy to know that my research wasn't totally in vain and that these compounds are roughly what I expected.

And bro, if you ran anything methylated without PCT, you need your head (scratch that, body in general) examined. Even an idiot n00b like me knows that. Thank you for trying, but I'll take my advice from the veterans who know their **** well.

 

[saywutrly]

Do you remember your dosage on this run?

 

[moleculargnz]

Do you remember your dosage on this run?

I ended the last two weeks at 400mg transdermal 4-andro, 200 mg td epiandro and 600mg oral epiandro. It was pretty annoying using that much td every morning but salvo dries extremely well/fast so it wasn't too bad. Definitely not a cheap stack but it was fun as hell

 

[anab0lix]

I've only been staying away from 1-DHEA because it's possibility of being very harsh on the hair.

I did run a short cycle than ended early but strength was going up very fast and I definitely started having that "on" look. It's not so bad if you could find good deals on the stuff and are already bald or don't care risking it.

 

[saywutrly]

Update and question:

I decided to run 100mg of each the epiandro and 4-andro three times daily for 300mg/each/day. For my next cycle, I'm looking at 450mg/day 1/4/Epi-andro or perhaps running one or more of them with a low dose of Anavar. I will be posting a separate thread for that with any questions unanswered by research.

I'm now on the first day of week 7 and I'm up a full 8 lbs with a small increase in BF (no specific BF numbers as of yet, but I have noticed that my abs are not quite as noticeable). My favorite thing about this run so far (aside from the significant increase in libido and bedroom hardness) is definitely the strength gains. For example, my leg press went from a paltry 300lbs for 10 reps to 480 lbs for 10 reps.

I have one of the two, clomid or nolva, available locally for PCT. I plan on a 6-week PCT with my current supplementation, one of the two SERMs, and a couple natural T-boosting supplements - DIM will be one of those. I have also been researching the orally-active GHRS, MK-677. There are multiple accounts of folks using this during PCT with good results. I have located a supplier of US-made MK-677 but wanted to get the opinion of the experts before I put in an order for that. Would this be a safe/good choice to run to keep gains/keep gaining while I run PCT? Per research, I was looking at 25mg once each morning 5 days on/2 days off. Your help is very much appreciated, bros!

 

[BamBam0319]

Definitely would recommend MK 677 on cycle and PCT, anytime is good for it really. I'd just run it every day of the week though. Can also start at 12.5mg, I run 10mg with great benefits.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Clomid especially, will raise your T levels to the top of the range, save your money on natural T boosters would be my advice - what are they going to do beyond the SERM? I like the Clomid/Nolva combo, last two weeks Nolva only EOD.

 

[saywutrly]

Understood. I will just pick up some of both when I grab the MK-677. Duly noted about the dosing on the MK-677. I will start small and can always raise if needed. What do you recommend for dosing with a clomid/nolva combo? Lastly, do you mean "end of day" by EOD? I know what it means in business, just making sure it doesn't mean something different in this land.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Every Other Day.

 

[saywutrly]

Every Other Day.

Glad I asked. Thank you again!

 

[saywutrly]

I have obtained both Clomid and Nolva for PCT, but can only find dosage recommendations for those who were on a cycle of full-on steroids, not lesser PHs. What do you recommend for dosing on a PCT with the Clomid/Nolva combo? I will also be running the MK-677, but I don't think that will make a difference on the dosages for the SERMs. Please advise and always, thank you, brothers!

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Just dose them the normal way - can you *technically* reduce each one because you're taking both - probably - but who wants to deal with looking at those tiny a$$ graduations on a 1ml Oral Syringe (or cutting pills, LOL). 50/50/25/25 and 20/20/10/10 for Clomid and Nolva respectively.

(Depending on source, 40/40/20/20 can also be the Clomid dose - depends on mg's per ml)

 

[saywutrly]

Just dose them the normal way - can you *technically* reduce each one because you're taking both - probably - but who wants to deal with looking at those tiny a$$ graduations on a 1ml Oral Syringe (or cutting pills, LOL). 50/50/25/25 and 20/20/10/10 for Clomid and Nolva respectively.

(Depending on source, 40/40/20/20 can also be the Clomid dose - depends on mg's per ml)

Right on. So run four week PCT and for the last two weeks continue Clomid each day and Nolva every other? Just being sure. I believe you said this before, I don't want to gamble with my balls.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

If you do an additional 2 weeks EOD, you can drop the Clomid all together and just continue the Nolva at 10 EOD. That is the info I was given, I don't know the mechanism behind it.

 

[saywutrly]

Just a quick update for informational purposes. I have been able to keep all of my gains in strength and size through PCT, of which I am halfway complete. The MK-677 is also keeping the gains in size coming as easily, but there is definitely a noticeable decrease in my speed of gaining strength as opposed to the Andro run. Libido is good - no issues with obtaining or maintaining.