SARM stack, with or without S4?

[Dragoninho]

I'm about to try a Sarm run.
I'm going to use Osta 20 mg for 12 weeks.
My idea was to stack this with LGD and S4 something like:
Lgd 6-9 mg ED. Week 1-6
S4 50 mg ED. W 1-6
Osta 20 mg. W 1-12.
I will probably run a small amount of Dermacrine W 6-12 with a moderate dose of Stano/Epiandro alongside with the Osta.

I have used Osta and S4 in the past but not LGD.
The idea is to use the first 6 weeks as a ********/strength increase period and then work against a recomp/more endurance work.

The question is if it's better to go with a higher dose of LGD and drop the S4 or do this as schedueled...?

I did like S4 when I used it back in the days. I got quite good strength increases from it but maybe Lgd is superior in this regard and there is no need for S4.
Maybe run LGD/Osta W1-6 and then do Osta/S4 W6-12 is another idea..


Someone who has experience/ideas here?
Thanks in advance.
/D

 

[goodvibes]

I'm not sure if osta and lgd is synergistic but if they work the same pathways then it's most likely osta will just take the back seat. (Broscience)

My opinion, just run lgd then like you planned maybe some dermacrine/epiandro on the side. One guy who is running lgd/osta atm is GreenMachineX . Now maybe he can enlighten you on to why he chose the route youre originally contemplating to run.

 

[goodvibes]

S4 I'm just not simply a fan of messing with vision. Temporary or not

 

[sanmarino]

Why are you running Ostarine 12 weeks but LGD and S4 only six weeks? You want to stop with them, when they start to work?
Don't run such a stack, it's too much, trust me.

LGD-4033: 6-9mg/ed over ten weeks
S4: 50mg/ed over ten weeks (5 days on, 2 days off to keep the side effects low). Furthermore split the dosage up in four times (4x 12.5mg/ed). The more you will split up the dosage in apart of 4h, the lower will the side effects be. I experimented with one dosage of 50mg at once (75mg/ed) and the adverse event was enormous.
GW-501516 optional. No need for PH.

PCT with Tamox or Clomid over four weeks together with four weeks of Ostarine (10mg/ed) as an anticatabolic/anabolic component. The dosage is strong enough to act as a anabolic/anti-catabolic compound but low enough to not inhibit the work of SERM dramatically.

The idea with mixing SARM and PH is - sorry for that - absoute bulls*it.
First of all: SARM are not stong enough. Everybody expects high amounts of muscle mass. SARM are completely wrong for that one. So, stacking 20 components together won't help you more. Only the side effects will increase. SARM are developed to have a similar effect as AAS but lower side effects (because the patients with strong illness have more than enough side effects with their cancer drugs etc.). And with a lower side effect profile you also will have a lower effect profile (in the most cases, and also in the SARM case).
Secondly: if you want to run such a long cycle - over 16 weeks with experimental drugs - you should use AAS which are studies very well. Use Testosterone 250mg/e5d over 24 weeks for nice build up.

 

[goodvibes]

sanmarino why would you call it bs to run a ph like epiandro/dermacrine with a sarm? I knw I'm not well versed in this area as much as you but it is known that something like lgd will cause a significant amount of suppression so wouldnt dermacrine help at this point? What would you suggest in place?

 

[sanmarino]

I wouldn't run ever a PH. Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. Why do you want to run for some couple of weeks a PH and you have to quit because of your liver (in most cases)? And muscle mass isn't made in such a short time. PH and DS are only products to generate more money (it's a million dollar market and as I see in this forum, the vendors are making their cash). Originally, PH were designed minimize the side effects and improve the anabolic/androgenic effect. But in all cases, PH have a much more worse effect/side effect ratio.

There are two ideas. Firstly, if you run a SARM you want to avoid the side effects of PH and AAS. SARM are - more or less - like a AAS 2.0. A lot of side effects are bypassed. So, SARM are much more interesting for elder people which don't want to risk an enlargement of their prostata for example. This is only one advantage. To combine SARM and a PH leads to a doubled risk: you are taking a research chemical and despite you will get all the nasty side effects of a PH (doesn't depend if 17aa or not).
Secondly, SARM have a much higher binding affinity (as far as I know, I have to look up here again). Primarily, the SARM will dock on the muscle receptors. You will understand, that - depending of the hight, weight and fat free mass of the tread opener - the PH will dock on the other free receptors. In the worst case, only a small amount of the PH substance will work, in the best case all of them. While SARM will dock only on the muscle receptors which should growh, the PH will also dock on the non-skeletal muscles - and this one is not your aim.
Thirdly, depending on the shutdown of the HTPA: it is shown, that SARM will affect the HTPA lower than AAS and PH/DS. All of the testsubjects in the LGD-4033 resp. VK-5211 case had a normal HTPA after three weeks - without a SERM. I recommend always to do a bloodwork short before the end of the cycle. You will have a nice overview if you have to run a SERM. But you are right, if there is a completely shutdown it doesn't matter if you rund SARM and PH together. But only in this point it makes sence to combine two different acting substances.

 

[Dragoninho]

Why are you running Ostarine 12 weeks but LGD and S4 only six weeks? You want to stop with them, when they start to work?
Don't run such a stack, it's too much, trust me.

LGD-4033: 6-9mg/ed over ten weeks
S4: 50mg/ed over ten weeks (5 days on, 2 days off to keep the side effects low). Furthermore split the dosage up in four times (4x 12.5mg/ed). The more you will split up the dosage in apart of 4h, the lower will the side effects be. I experimented with one dosage of 50mg at once (75mg/ed) and the adverse event was enormous.
GW-501516 optional. No need for PH.

PCT with Tamox or Clomid over four weeks together with four weeks of Ostarine (10mg/ed) as an anticatabolic/anabolic component. The dosage is strong enough to act as a anabolic/anti-catabolic compound but low enough to not inhibit the work of SERM dramatically.

The idea with mixing SARM and PH is - sorry for that - absoute bulls*it.
First of all: SARM are not stong enough. Everybody expects high amounts of muscle mass. SARM are completely wrong for that one. So, stacking 20 components together won't help you more. Only the side effects will increase. SARM are developed to have a similar effect as AAS but lower side effects (because the patients with strong illness have more than enough side effects with their cancer drugs etc.). And with a lower side effect profile you also will have a lower effect profile (in the most cases, and also in the SARM case).
Secondly: if you want to run such a long cycle - over 16 weeks with experimental drugs - you should use AAS which are studies very well. Use Testosterone 250mg/e5d over 24 weeks for nice build up.

Well, I think we have to agree to disagree in some points. Osta/Derma/Epiandro is a great stack! I got (and many more) has really good results with a supereasy recovery afterwards.
But I hear you on certain points. Maybe the stack is a bit too much.

But the talk about stopping the compounds when they start to work is in my experience BS. 6-8 weeks of S4 is really enough to get some decent results. Period.
For LGD I can't say, as said, I havn't tried. But people tend to say that they get quite good effekts pretty fast from it.

And, I really agree about your talk about PH etc. But, it's still differences between PH's and PH's. Derma is honestly something else. And Epiandro/Stano as well. They look like have a lower supression than many other compounds and in my experience I agree to that.

I'm not saying you are wrong but I just don't agree with all your opinions.

 

[sanmarino]

Try the LGD, it's potent stuff Unfortunately, I finished my S4 intake some weeks ago. I should have run it together. I definititely feel, that a compound is "missing".
I'm good with that you are not agreeing with me on all points. It's a forum and we can discuss about that. But I think for the first time LGD, a stack together with S4 is - in my opinion - a very powerful SARM stack and you will reach the max out of the SARM. And I can also understand, why you want to add a PH. The "on-feeling" is missing on SARM. The only on-feeling I had was on 7mg/ed LGD and 75mg/ed S4. The androgenic effect was strong and I felt very powerful and a bit more agressive than on lower dosages.

But it's also a risk, that you won't feel the Ostarine together with S4 and LGD because the two substances are working strong enough. If I were you, I would use Ostarine as part of a PCT or in another cycle without LGD.

 

[Dragoninho]

I

Try the LGD, it's potent stuff Unfortunately, I finished my S4 intake some weeks ago. I should have run it together. I definititely feel, that a compound is "missing".
I'm good with that you are not agreeing with me on all points. It's a forum and we can discuss about that. But I think for the first time LGD, a stack together with S4 is - in my opinion - a very powerful SARM stack and you will reach the max out of the SARM. And I can also understand, why you want to add a PH. The "on-feeling" is missing on SARM. The only on-feeling I had was on 7mg/ed LGD and 75mg/ed S4. The androgenic effect was strong and I felt very powerful and a bit more agressive than on lower dosages.

But it's also a risk, that you won't feel the Ostarine together with S4 and LGD because the two substances are working strong enough. If I were you, I would use Ostarine as part of a PCT or in another cycle without LGD.

Ah, Now I understand you a bit clearer.
One of the mainreasons for Osta in the cycle is the tendon repair effect I get from it and I would like to try it in a longer cycle though people have opt for longer cycles with osta. So, the first 6 weeks with osta is more or less having it "in the background" until I drop the LGD.
But I hear you, I will rethink this..

 

[goodvibes]

I knw the sides from PH/AAS run but my question was how would you battle lethargy from a SARM cycle?

 

[sanmarino]

What lethargy? I don't feel any lethargy even on LGD+S4+GW+MK-677.

 

[goodvibes]

What lethargy? I don't feel any lethargy even on LGD+S4+GW+MK-677.

Ok, then you cnt really recommend not taking a test base of some sort cause you cnt relate. You cnt say it's BS to run dermacrine w/ SARMs because you simply haven't tried it or had the need to.

We take it to fill in our needs that SARM can't simply accomplish by itself. Well being, aggression, libido, etc. Common sides from low test aka suppression from SARMs.

 

[sanmarino]

In this case, I can understand that. But - honestly - I never heard from lethargy in SARM abuse and this wasn't also an adverse event of all the studies.
But if that was the case, then probably a test based substance will help with that, that's right.

 

[Dragoninho]

But what should your recommendation for a LGD/S4 cycle be?
9 mg LGD, 50 mg S4 (5 on 2 off) for aprx 10 weeks?

 

[sanmarino]

I've posted an example.

 

[Dragoninho]

I've posted an example.

Yes, sorry, I forgot that. My bad.

 

[clown007]

Great information!! Love this discussion.

I am not a fan of the S4 vision side (even just the potential of it), so how would an Osta 25mg and LGD around 6-9mg per day. I would like to run this for somewhere in the 8 to 12 week range if that is not too much.

What are your thoughts?

-clown

 

[clown007]

sanmarino Just wondering what you think about an Osta 25mg and LGD 6mg stack? How long do you think a cycle like this can be safely run?

Thanks
-clown

 

[sanmarino]

I'm honestly not sure how they both would interact. Their binding affinity is more or less at the same level so they would compete about the receptors. I only saw a few conclusions about a LGD + Osta cycle and there were mixed opinions. Some say, it was a bit better insted LGD alone and some didn't see a further benefit.
Me personally haven't tried LGD and Osta together because of the high risk of no added benefit and I probably won't try that.

I stacked S4 with both components and can agree that this combination works with a much higher benefit than LGD or Osta alone. There are only two options: try, fail and learn or try, succeed, learn

In general, such a cycle could be used for ten weeks for sure. But to stay on the safe side, do a blood work.

 

[motiv8er]

Why are you running Ostarine 12 weeks but LGD and S4 only six weeks? You want to stop with them, when they start to work?
Don't run such a stack, it's too much, trust me.

LGD-4033: 6-9mg/ed over ten weeks
S4: 50mg/ed over ten weeks (5 days on, 2 days off to keep the side effects low). Furthermore split the dosage up in four times (4x 12.5mg/ed). The more you will split up the dosage in apart of 4h, the lower will the side effects be. I experimented with one dosage of 50mg at once (75mg/ed) and the adverse event was enormous.
GW-501516 optional. No need for PH.

PCT with Tamox or Clomid over four weeks together with four weeks of Ostarine (10mg/ed) as an anticatabolic/anabolic component. The dosage is strong enough to act as a anabolic/anti-catabolic compound but low enough to not inhibit the work of SERM dramatically.

The idea with mixing SARM and PH is - sorry for that - absoute bulls*it.
First of all: SARM are not stong enough. Everybody expects high amounts of muscle mass. SARM are completely wrong for that one. So, stacking 20 components together won't help you more. Only the side effects will increase. SARM are developed to have a similar effect as AAS but lower side effects (because the patients with strong illness have more than enough side effects with their cancer drugs etc.). And with a lower side effect profile you also will have a lower effect profile (in the most cases, and also in the SARM case).
Secondly: if you want to run such a long cycle - over 16 weeks with experimental drugs - you should use AAS which are studies very well. Use Testosterone 250mg/e5d over 24 weeks for nice build up.

Some very helpful words!

 

[GreenMachineX]

I'm doing ostarine @ 25mg and LGD-4033 at 12mg and loving it. Been on it seven weeks. 2 weeks ago I added epiandro at 900mg and it just kicked in a few days ago. I feel awesome. Obviously it's not as good as test plus dbol or something, but a legal, effective, and relatively safe route it is. I haven't ran LGD-4033 solo yet, but after this cycle's time off, I'll probably run this again just without the ostarine (so LGD-4033 plus epiandro).

Edit: Failed to mention, I am on TRT so pct and shutdown are not a concern.

 

[goodvibes]

I'm doing ostarine @ 25mg and LGD-4033 at 12mg and loving it. Been on it seven weeks. 2 weeks ago I added epiandro at 900mg and it just kicked in a few days ago. I feel awesome. Obviously it's not as good as test plus dbol or something, but a legal, effective, and relatively safe route it is. I haven't ran LGD-4033 solo yet, but after this cycle's time off, I'll probably run this again just without the ostarine (so LGD-4033 plus epiandro).

Nice to hear your run is going great. What's our gainz like in 7 weeks?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Nice to hear your run is going great. What's our gainz like in 7 weeks?

I've added 50lb to my 3RM to my deadlift and recomped. Weight was 231 when I started and about 235 now. I've also had to take a week off twice during this run, 1 due to illness and the other due to wisdom tooth extraction. So, taking everything into account, one helluva run in my opinion.
Full, pumped, and vascular.

 

[goodvibes]

I've added 50lb to my 3RM to my deadlift and recomped. Weight was 231 when I started and about 235 now. I've also had to take a week off twice during this run, 1 due to illness and the other due to wisdom tooth extraction. So, taking everything into account, one helluva run in my opinion.
Full, pumped, and vascular.

That does sound like a good run. Are you going 8 weeks for this or longer? Did you go androvar for your epiandro?

 

[GreenMachineX]

That does sound like a good run. Are you going 8 weeks for this or longer? Did you go androvar for your epiandro?

I'm going for 12 weeks on the LGD and probably 16 on the ostarine. The epiandro (yes, Androvar) throughout all of summer.

 

[clown007]

Will they be concurrently? So weeks 1-12 LGD/Ostarine and then 13-16 just Ostarine.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Will they be concurrently? So weeks 1-12 LGD/Ostarine and then 13-16 just Ostarine.

Correct. I don't recommend anyone do what I do, FTR.

 

[goodvibes]

I'm going for 12 weeks on the LGD and probably 16 on the ostarine. The epiandro (yes, Androvar) throughout all of summer.

Hardcore stack. You are on trt though so youre a lil different than the rest of us

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hardcore stack. You are on trt though so youre a lil different than the rest of us

Right. I don't think anything should follow the cycle lengths I am. But stacking lgd or ostarine with epiandro I highly recommend.

 

[goodvibes]

Right. I don't think anything should follow the cycle lengths I am. But stacking lgd or ostarine with epiandro I highly recommend.

I think I have a winter stack set up.

LGD week 1-8
MK 677 week 1-8
Epiandro/dermacrine weeks 1-6
DMZ weeks 6-12
Trest weeks 6-12

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think I have a winter stack set up.

LGD week 1-8
MK 677 week 1-8
Epiandro/dermacrine weeks 1-6
DMZ weeks 6-12
Trest weeks 6-12

Nice, but why not run the epiandro throughout?

 

[goodvibes]

Nice, but why not run the epiandro throughout?

I won't need it on top of trest. I'm sure it's nice but I'll be on dmz/trest by then.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I won't need it on top of trest. I'm sure it's nice but I'll be on dmz/trest by then.

Oh, I don't know much about the new designer phs.

 

[goodvibes]

Oh, I don't know much about the new designer phs.

You're not missing out much. They're all banned now. Lol

 

[GreenMachineX]

True.

 

[1kerry]

guys, sorry to hijack this thread, but since you guys know a lot, I would like to know if theres any problem taking ostarine at the same time with other supps like ABE, ALPHAMINE, bcaa, etc..

thanks!

 

[GreenMachineX]

guys, sorry to hijack this thread, but since you guys know a lot, I would like to know if theres any problem taking ostarine at the same time with other supps like ABE, ALPHAMINE, bcaa, etc..

thanks!

No problem at all. Go for it.

Edit: just noticed this was my 1000th post lulz