low test high tren cycle ?

xfactor17

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Is it better to run low dose test like 250 mg of test e per week with high tren cycle like 400 or above of tren ace ?
 
booneman77

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I ran test at 150/wk and tren at 350 and that was money for me.
 
turff49

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Which tren you running, ace? Which test, prop, or e?
 
turff49

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I'd run test e twice a week at 100 ea. Tren 3 times a week 100ea. That is if this is your first time running tren.
 
StanleyG

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Its easier to manage e2 with lower doses of test and that tends to be at the core of hormonal based sides that can occur. Often people like to run low test, higher tren, finding the sides easier to manage as you have stated. Also tren is obviously the workhorse in that cycle, makes some sense to let it do the majority of the work. Your may just have to try both ways and see which you personally prefer but Id def give that protocol a try. I like the lower test protocol myself.
 
turff49

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Main reason for the little lower dose on the tren for first time is because of the potential sides from tren. Much easier to handle at this dose than higher.
 

xfactor17

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Its easier to manage e2 with lower doses of test and that tends to be at the core of hormonal based sides that can occur. Often people like to run low test, higher tren, finding the sides easier to manage as you have stated. Also tren is obviously the workhorse in that cycle, makes some sense to let it do the majority of the work. Your may just have to try both ways and see which you personally prefer but Id def give that protocol a try. I like the lower test protocol myself.
Yeah i've been be doin research on low dose test and high tren everyone says the exact same thing you just staTed. Do you think the same can be done with low test and high deca?
 

xfactor17

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I'd run test e twice a week at 100 ea. Tren 3 times a week 100ea. That is if this is your first time running tren.
yeah I'm on 350 tren ace and 500 test e. Should I lower the dosage of just keep at it and deal with the sides ?
 
booneman77

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Did you notice any less side effects ?
I had very few at all until late (week7) and pct... Night sweats and back pumps were really it tho.
 
booneman77

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yeah I'm on 350 tren ace and 500 test e. Should I lower the dosage of just keep at it and deal with the sides ?
The main reason I've seen to lower test is that tren is a preferential receptor hog and will only allow as much test to bind as receptors left... Running high test just means more will be left free to potentially convert to estro and cause more sides. Trt doses 150-200ew) is plenty.

Also, I liked ace dosed Ed vs eod. Seemed to keep me feeling better all the time and no swings of mood or feel.
 
seanghetto

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yes low dose test/ high tren is the way to go. thats what i run (200mg test e/600mg tren e). I researched for a long time about it as the old way of thinking is that high test causes less sides but now people realize that it is the other way around. and yeah like someone already said, whats the point of using high test when its the tren thats going to be giving the gains? just run what your body needs to function and let the tren do its job. save ure test and money. i dont get any sides running this way which i have done 4 times now for 20 week cycles, just a bit of night sweats which is to be expected as i live in a hot climate.
 
StanleyG

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Yeah i've been be doin research on low dose test and high tren everyone says the exact same thing you just staTed. Do you think the same can be done with low test and high deca?
Depends on the individual. I have run dec higher than test and like it that way, some prefer vice versa. Again you may have to see what works best for you.
 
StanleyG

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The main reason I've seen to lower test is that tren is a preferential receptor hog and will only allow as much test to bind as receptors left... Running high test just means more will be left free to potentially convert to estro and cause more sides. Trt doses 150-200ew) is plenty.

Also, I liked ace dosed Ed vs eod. Seemed to keep me feeling better all the time and no swings of mood or feel.
This is not an issue at all man. Androgen receptors dont work that way. There is no set amount and they are always being regenerated. Also in the presence of excess androgens the lifespan of androgen receptors nearly doubles as does the rate of production of new androgen receptors. Just stick with the lower test equals lower estrogen equals easier sides management. The first part of the post is way off man.
 
booneman77

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This is not an issue at all man. Androgen receptors dont work that way. There is no set amount and they are always being regenerated. Also in the presence of excess androgens the lifespan of androgen receptors nearly doubles as does the rate of production of new androgen receptors. Just stick with the lower test equals lower estrogen equals easier sides management. The first part of the post is way off man.
hmmm interesting... I've never heard that before. Any links to this? Interested to learn more
 
StanleyG

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hmmm interesting... I've never heard that before. Any links to this? Interested to learn more
Yeah there is a study that directly states it. I posted it a while ago in another thread here. If I can dig it up ill repost it for you. Also its just basic AR function. It not like there is a certain set # and you have each one forever etc. Does not work that way at all.
 
booneman77

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Yeah there is a study that directly states it. I posted it a while ago in another thread here. If I can dig it up ill repost it for you. Also its just basic AR function. It not like there is a certain set # and you have each one forever etc. Does not work that way at all.
I realize that there is no set number forever, but there is a given amount at any one time... and with short esters, that would seem to become very important in regards to how many are available and what the compounds will do
 

xfactor17

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Depends on the individual. I have run dec higher than test and like it that way, some prefer vice versa. Again you may have to see what works best for you.
True. I'll need to try this out for my next cycle. I've decided to stick with 250 mg of test e and tren at 350. Thanks for your help
 
StanleyG

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I realize that there is no set number forever, but there is a given amount at any one time... and with short esters, that would seem to become very important in regards to how many are available and what the compounds will do
Its never an issue, you will not achieve receptor saturation, Ill find the study on excess androgens but it is far more basic than that.
Here you go, a write up from years ago by Karl Hoffman including the study:

Androgen Receptor Upregulation
Karl Hofman


Although reported half-lives and production rates of the androgen receptor (AR) vary somewhat according to the cells examined, the values reported in the abstract below are fairly typical. In the absence of androgen the AR has a half-life of about 3 hours. This means that after 3 hours 50% of the androgen receptors initially present have been degraded and replaced with new androgen receptors. In the presence of ligand, the half life of the AR is extended to over 6 hours and the production rate of new AR was almost doubled.
Androgen receptors do not fill up. They are constantly being produced, enzymatically degraded, and replaced with new receptors.


J Biol Chem. 1985 Jan 10;260(1):455-61.
Mechanism of androgen-receptor augmentation. Analysis of receptor synthesis and degradation by the density-shift technique.
Syms AJ, Norris JS, Panko WB, Smith RG.
The ductus deferens smooth muscle tumor cell line (DDT1MF-2) contains receptors for, and is stimulated by, androgens. Cells cultured in the absence of androgens maintain a basal level of androgen receptors. Following incubation with various concentrations of the synthetic androgen methyltrienolone (R1881) for 1-6 h, the concentration of these receptors increased from 6.0 to 12.2 fmol/micrograms of DNA, while the equilibrium dissociation constant (Kd) of 0.5 nM for this steroid remained unchanged. The steroid-induced increase in androgen receptor levels was specific for androgens and dependent upon protein synthesis. The mechanism of receptor augmentation was examined by utilization of isotopically dense amino acids to determine rates of receptor appearance and degradation in the presence or absence of [3H]R1881. In the absence of androgens, the half-life of the androgen receptor was 3.1 h, with a rate constant (kD) of 0.22/h. In the presence of 1 nM [3H]R1881, however, the half-life was 6.6 h, with kD = 0.11/h. The rate constant for receptor synthesis (ks) in the absence or presence of [3H]R1881 was calculated to be 1.35 and 2.23 fmol/micrograms of DNA/h, respectively. Thus, androgen-induced androgen-receptor augmentation is explained by an increase both in receptor half-life and in rates of receptor synthesis.
 
booneman77

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Its never an issue, you will not achieve receptor saturation, Ill find the study on excess androgens but it is far more basic than that.
Here you go, a write up from years ago by Karl Hoffman including the study:

Androgen Receptor Upregulation
Karl Hofman


Although reported half-lives and production rates of the androgen receptor (AR) vary somewhat according to the cells examined, the values reported in the abstract below are fairly typical. In the absence of androgen the AR has a half-life of about 3 hours. This means that after 3 hours 50% of the androgen receptors initially present have been degraded and replaced with new androgen receptors. In the presence of ligand, the half life of the AR is extended to over 6 hours and the production rate of new AR was almost doubled.
Androgen receptors do not fill up. They are constantly being produced, enzymatically degraded, and replaced with new receptors.


J Biol Chem. 1985 Jan 10;260(1):455-61.
Mechanism of androgen-receptor augmentation. Analysis of receptor synthesis and degradation by the density-shift technique.
Syms AJ, Norris JS, Panko WB, Smith RG.
The ductus deferens smooth muscle tumor cell line (DDT1MF-2) contains receptors for, and is stimulated by, androgens. Cells cultured in the absence of androgens maintain a basal level of androgen receptors. Following incubation with various concentrations of the synthetic androgen methyltrienolone (R1881) for 1-6 h, the concentration of these receptors increased from 6.0 to 12.2 fmol/micrograms of DNA, while the equilibrium dissociation constant (Kd) of 0.5 nM for this steroid remained unchanged. The steroid-induced increase in androgen receptor levels was specific for androgens and dependent upon protein synthesis. The mechanism of receptor augmentation was examined by utilization of isotopically dense amino acids to determine rates of receptor appearance and degradation in the presence or absence of [3H]R1881. In the absence of androgens, the half-life of the androgen receptor was 3.1 h, with a rate constant (kD) of 0.22/h. In the presence of 1 nM [3H]R1881, however, the half-life was 6.6 h, with kD = 0.11/h. The rate constant for receptor synthesis (ks) in the absence or presence of [3H]R1881 was calculated to be 1.35 and 2.23 fmol/micrograms of DNA/h, respectively. Thus, androgen-induced androgen-receptor augmentation is explained by an increase both in receptor half-life and in rates of receptor synthesis.
So if I'm reading this correctly, there are two major points:
1) introduction of androgens actually caused an increase in the production of receptors
2) even with no androgens, 50% of the receptors are degraded and replaced anyways in roughly 3hrs.

Awesome info and thus making my earlier thought totally moot. Especially considering that by the time even the shortest esters are cleaved the body would have already begun producing more new receptors. Thanks.
 
StanleyG

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So if I'm reading this correctly, there are two major points:
1) introduction of androgens actually caused an increase in the production of receptors
2) even with no androgens, 50% of the receptors are degraded and replaced anyways in roughly 3hrs.

Awesome info and thus making my earlier thought totally moot. Especially considering that by the time even the shortest esters are cleaved the body would have already begun producing more new receptors. Thanks.
No problem. The only other important thing to note is that not only is there an increase in the # of receptors but their "lifespan"if you will nearly doubles as well.
 

David147

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I was thinking just going up to 300mg/wk of test, from my 200mg cruise... and like 75mg/day Tren Ace for 4 weeks.... then about another 8 weeks of cruising and then a big blast.
 

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