Ostarine tissue selectivity and Gyno

[BertBolic]

Hello everyone. I am new to the world of peds, so please bear with me.

I got slightly puffy nipples from an Ostarine cycle and I am trying to figure out the mechanism through which it happened so I can address it if I am to run another cycle of it.

Cycle:
15mg ostarine for 4 weeks
Pct
20mg nolva for 4 weeks

Possible gyno causes:
1. Low testosterone - I felt very low on energy during week 4, possibly suppressed. If ostarine works selectively and is less effective in breast tissue then could that and the lower test have caused the problem?
2. High estrogen - ostarine does not aromatize, but could my own test have?

 

[PolishHamm3r77]

Hope u get some honest replies from empirical research. I have been thinking of running an Ostar1ne cycle. Not as a pct, not stacked w test, just the ostarine w on cycle support if needed. I had nip issue during puberty so am petrified o gyno. Plus I'm 37 so assuming I'm more apt to get gyno. What was your exp overall? Did u do any on cycle support or pct?

 

[mgkoret]

Ask Dma378 he had some estrogen side effects on osta. Everyone is different I'm running mine 25/25/25/37/37/37 with no nitabke sides in the previous 5 weeks. Go figure lol

 

[yates84]

Hello everyone. I am new to the world of peds, so please bear with me.

I got slightly puffy nipples from an Ostarine cycle and I am trying to figure out the mechanism through which it happened so I can address it if I am to run another cycle of it.

Cycle:
15mg ostarine for 4 weeks
Pct
20mg nolva for 4 weeks

Possible gyno causes:
1. Low testosterone - I felt very low on energy during week 4, possibly suppressed. If ostarine works selectively and is less effective in breast tissue then could that and the lower test have caused the problem?
2. High estrogen - ostarine does not aromatize, but could my own test have?

You want to taper off of a serm, so 20/20/10/10. Also, you should always have an aromatase inhibitor on hand to prevent high estrogen sides. Aromatase interacts with testosterone and turns said testosterone into estrogen. An aromatase inhibitor will stop this from happening and prevent estrogen from getting out of hand. Research is the key before you put a substance in your body

 

[BertBolic]

To 98fatboy:

I did pct but no oncycle support.

The experience was pretty amazing. If it were not for the puffy nips, it would have been perfect. Lifts, weight,uscle fullness all increased. The pumps were out of thi world. The energy and mood throughout the day were unbeliavable. It also cleared up a few injuries I had had for a while.

But, I have to make sure I have the gyno risk covered if I am to do this again.

The question is, will an AI be enough? The problem may not just be the elevated estrogen but also the lower androgen. Ostarine does suppress you and because it works selectively, it could also be less effective in breast tissue.

Will an AI be enough to keep at least my natural test high enough?

 

[yates84]

I did pct but no oncycle support.

The experience was pretty amazing. If it were not for the puffy nips, it would have been perfect. Lifts, weight,uscle fullness all increased. The pumps were out of thi world. The energy and mood throughout the day were unbeliavable. It also cleared up a few injuries I had had for a while.

But, I have to make sure I have the gyno risk covered if I am to do this again.

The question is, will an AI be enough? The problem may not just be the elevated estrogen but also the lower androgen. Ostarine does suppress you and because it works selectively, it could also be less effective in breast tissue.

Will an AI be enough to keep my natural test high enough?

An ai has nothing to do with keeping endogenous testosterone production up while on cycle. I think you have a lot of reading to do before jumping on another cycle. I would be glad to answer any questions you have but only research and doing your due diligence will tell you everything you need to know

 

[BertBolic]

Great, here is my first question.

Can gyno be caused by low testosterone? Not just high estrogen.

 

[yates84]

Great, here is my first question.

Can gyno be caused by low testosterone? Not just high estrogen.

No, low test doesn't cause gyno.

 

[BertBolic]

That would make it pretty simple.

Are you absolutely sure? Mayoclinic and webmd say otherwise.

 

[yates84]

That would make it pretty simple.

Are you absolutely sure? Mayoclinic and webmd say otherwise.

I have never heard of this. I can't see it being possible. If your nipples are just puffy, you shouldn't be concerned. If they get painful or get lumps, then you have a problem. Even an otc ai, such as armistane, can be used to get rid of your puffy nips. If you took osta then got gyno/puffy nips, it is from high estrogen. The only other kind of gyno I have heard of is prolactin gyno which is also possible while using anabolics

 

[BertBolic]

They were painful if I were to pinch them. A strange dull and deep kind of pain. They were also itchy towards the end of the cycle.

 

[yates84]

They were painful if I were to pinch them. A strange dull and deep kind of pain. They were also itchy towards the end of the cycle.

No lumps or shooting pains? Just sensitive and puffy? A mild ai will take care of that

 

[BertBolic]

I never felt the lump behind the nipple that people describe. No shooting pain.

 

[yates84]

I never felt the lump behind the nipple that people describe. No shooting pain.

These are the first signs of high estrogen. Are they still sensitive and puffy? How long have you been off pct? An ai needs to be taken at the first signs of high estrogen so it doesn't turn into gyno.

 

[BertBolic]

The itchyness disappeared after the pct.

I am now taking aromasin and nolva and the puffyness has subsided.

So, you are saying that only the level of estrogen matters, rather that the ratio of estrogen to testosterone.

 

[yates84]

The itchyness disappeared after the pct.

I am now taking aromasin and nolva and the puffyness has subsided.

So, you are saying that only the level of estrogen matters, rather that the ratio of estrogen to testosterone.

That is how I understand it, yes. If you have already completed pct the nolva isn't necessary imo. I would discontinue the nolva and start tapering down the aromasin if your nips aren't puffy or sensitive. You probably got rebound from not tapering down your serm in pct to begin with. Always taper off your serm in pct!

 

[BertBolic]

That is how I understand it, yes. If you have already completed pct the nolva isn't necessary imo. I would discontinue the nolva and start tapering down the aromasin if your nips aren't puffy or sensitive. You probably got rebound from not tapering down your serm in pct to begin with. Always taper off your serm in pct!

No. The problem appeared during the cycle, not during pct. It subsided during pct.

 

[yates84]

No. The problem appeared during the cycle, not during pct. It subsided during pct.

Ok, then use an ai during cycle next time this happens

 

[BertBolic]

Thank you for your input.

 

[Dma378]

I just tried to find out why one would have estro sides when suppressed. Can't find a clear answer. I did find one bit of info stating that low T levels can mimic high estrogen via swollen breast tissue.

I would ASSUME it has something to do with a hormonal imbalance. Estrogen in men is not only from converted Test. We also produce a small amount. So if Test production is suppressed then the Estro in the body could be the dominant hormone.

That is a hunch. As I said I couldn't find a clear answer other than the low T symptoms.

 

[BertBolic]

I am trying to find out the same. Both mayoclinic and webmd say low test can cause gyno, but they do not say how.

 

[BertBolic]

Ok, I found something. Low test can cause gyno even if your estrogen stays normal.

"Androgens and mammary growth and neoplasia" and William Llewellyn's "Anabolics" claim that androgens inhibit mammary tissue proliferation. The balance between growth promoting estrogen and inhibiting androgens determines gyno development.

So, you also have to worry about suppression, not just aromatization. The problem might be bigger with ostarine since it works in tissues selectively. If breast tissue is one of the tissues that it is not very effective in, then we have to come up with a way to keep test high.

Other than decreasing estrogen, Aromasin also increases test. I wonder if that would be enough to prevent suppression.

 

[mgkoret]

Iv gone through this a couple times for some folks. would love to pass along the laymans explanation of how this kind of works when suppressed.

You are supplying your own test so the body reads that as having high levels and stops natty test production (AKA suppression)
The body constantly fights to stay in hormonal homeostasis, and so other hormones kick into gear to keep up with rising T levels
Some of this test in the body can aromatise (Even if the compound does not, your test still present in the body can, assuming not all test product shuts down, and with osta, that is a possibility)
Due to increased e levels, gyno symptoms can arise.
Taking e control and an on cycle AI can reduce these symptoms and send you on your merry way to a successful cycle without sides.
When coming off the osta, normal test production will resume to make up for lost T in the system and a SERM is used to keep other hormones under control while test catches up and the body is once again at homeostasis.

So, in other words, shiz happens and the body dies f'ed up stuff. always have chems on hand to combat these not so cool occurrences and PCT like a pro.

SCIENCE B*TCHES

 

[BertBolic]

Are you saying that an AI is enough to prevent suppression?

 

[mgkoret]

No. AIs combat the gyno that could come from aromatising test or high e
Test base combats suppression.

 

[BertBolic]

Is there a way to prevent suppression other than taking a test base?

 

[mgkoret]

yeah, don't take steroids

 

[BertBolic]

Thank you for your input.

 

[sanmarino]

Ok, I found something. Low test can cause gyno even if your estrogen stays normal.

Yes, it's due to the changed ratio between testosterone and estrogene. But you have to keep in mind, that under Ostarine both sexual hormones will decrease - the higher the dosage, the higher the decrease. I never used a SERM or a OTC products in my SARM-PCT. I did every time blood works and so I had a clear overview about the status.

The last cycle I made (Ostarine and S4) was much more heavier in the supression than a Ostarine stand-alone cycle but with 50mg/ed S4 not that strong as expected. The libido decreased much stronger but with DAA (there are serveral studies that shows, DAA has a strong impact on decreased levels, and no to nearly none effect for a "healthy" man with normal values) and some natural vegetable components the libido came within four to five days (!) back.
BertBolic, a SARM cycle of four weeks is senseless. To build up muscle you need time. I used Ostarine at 20mg/ed for at least nine weeks. Had some solid gains (depending on the aim with more or less water and fat). And for such a short cycle which will only decrease and not completely shut down your HTPA you won't need cancer drugs.

I will use tamox with a high probability for my next cycle (LGD, S4, GW, MK-677) because of the heavy supression of S4 and LGD together. But of course, first of all you should have a look on your blood work short before end of the cycle. Then you are on the safer side.

I'm pretty sure, that something's wrong with your "Ostarine-poduct" and/or you have a high body fat ratio (body fat is not "dead", it's active and the higher the body fat is, the more estrogenic risks there are). Heard the first time, someone needs in a SARM cycle an AI or SERM after four weeks. It doesn't match with the study results and with the experiences and blood works from other users I have seen.

 

[BertBolic]

Thanks for your post sanmarino. It was not high body fat. I had abs throighout the entire cycle. The product and the company I used also had pretty good reviews.

How did you like the DAA? What do you think about using it on an ostarine cycle to prevent or at least delay suppression?

 

[jbryand101b]

Hello everyone. I am new to the world of peds, so please bear with me.

I got slightly puffy nipples from an Ostarine cycle and I am trying to figure out the mechanism through which it happened so I can address it if I am to run another cycle of it.

Cycle:
15mg ostarine for 4 weeks
Pct
20mg nolva for 4 weeks

Possible gyno causes:
1. Low testosterone - I felt very low on energy during week 4, possibly suppressed. If ostarine works selectively and is less effective in breast tissue then could that and the lower test have caused the problem?
2. High estrogen - ostarine does not aromatize, but could my own test have?

The only answer I have is your osta possibly contained something else, or in addition.
What brand?

There is zero reason to have gyno after using osta and on top of that, nolva

Only thing I can come up with is your osta was tainted and the nolva was bunk.

 

[jbryand101b]

Ah shiit, there is some serious mis info running around up in here. I'll be back later
Having a test base doesn't prevent suppression, only helps make it greater

It'll prevent sides from low test though, which sarms are meant for as well.

I'll be back. Subbed to get y'all ol the right path.

 

[BertBolic]

Thanks. I look forward to your post.

 

[jbryand101b]

Looks like sides stopped when nolva was started, so nolva was probably legit.

 

[BertBolic]

Also, everything came from the same company.

 

[jbryand101b]

Also, everything came from the same company.

Well, supplement companies don't sell nolva, so I'm going to guess your osta was a research chemical

 

[Dma378]

Ah shiit, there is some serious mis info running around up in here. I'll be back later
Having a test base doesn't prevent suppression, only helps make it greater

It'll prevent sides from low test though, which sarms are meant for as well.

I'll be back. Subbed to get y'all ol the right path.

This!! I can't say how many times I try to dispel the notion that a test base prevents suppression. Merely masks the sides associated with it. I mean, Test suppresses!!!

 

[BertBolic]

Yes, everything I used was a research chemical.

 

[jbryand101b]

An ai has nothing to do with keeping endogenous testosterone production up while on cycle. I think you have a lot of reading to do before jumping on another cycle. I would be glad to answer any questions you have but only research and doing your due diligence will tell you everything you need to know

Eh, an ai will keep test up on cycle.

It will prevent the androgens that are being produced from converting into estrogen.

It isn't going to help with suppression or preventing the testicles from becoming desensitized from the effects of LH.

Ops problem is from creating a hormonal disruption in his body. Estrogen us just one piece if the numerous pieces of the puzzle.

 

[sanmarino]

How did you like the DAA? What do you think about using it on an ostarine cycle to prevent or at least delay suppression?

It's shown that DAA has an effect.

In humans and rats, sodium D-aspartate induces an enhancement of LH and testosterone release.

it stimulates the secretion of the following hormones: prolactin (PRL), luteinizing hormone (LH), and growth hormone (GH)

If someone doesn't believe in this underestimated substance it's his good right.

DAA and frogs: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23153651/?i=6&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and frogs II: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22036840/?i=8&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and frogs III: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21531634/?i=10&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and rats: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24713504/?i=1&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and rats II: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24439162/?i=3&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and humans (and rats ): (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19860889/?i=11&from=d aspartic acid testosterone
DAA and humans II: (pro-DAA)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17118457/?i=5&from=d aspartic acid testosterone human
DAA and humans III: (contra-DAA3)
This study analyses the intake of DAA from "natural" persons over 28 days. The results are that DAA is not suitable for strenght and building up muscles. Nevertheless, the serum values have impoved and that is the main effect for us as SARM user (and not if we have more strenght, we aren't naturals anymore. Therefore we have other "tools" ).

D-ASP resulted in a slight increase compared with baseline levels (P > .05). For the D-ASP group, the levels of serum DDO were significantly increased compared with placebo (P < .05).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24074738/?i=2&from=d aspartic acid testosterone human

So, rule #1 is as always: do a blood work. It's essential, most of the users doesn't do that. The threat is a wrong PCT (e.g. DAA instead of Tamox and vice versa). I used DAA over three to four weeks as a mini-PCT together with vegetables extracts as testosterone booster. The values improved every time (also in my S4+Osta cycle, but needed a bit longer than Osta only, approximately ten days to have the same values as pre-cycle). But this is just my personal experience. Proably another person needs a (low dose) PCT (10-20mg Tamox over four weeks). JUST MAKE A BLOOD WORK. If your LH is <0.01 units the next step is clear. But if it's decreased only about a half or something like that, you should think about using DAA and a natural test-booster.

Regards

sanmarino

 

[Matthew1237]

Gosh - I'm gonna be doing a 11.4 week Osta cycle @ 30mg. The stuff is just sounding more like a headache than legit gear lol

 

[Dma378]

It's definitely not a headache. Do you plan on doing a full-on pct after that duration and dosage?

 

[Matthew1237]

Yep. Gonna be hitting Ostarine for 11.4 weeks @ 30mgED. Adding in halo/Tren @ 6 weeks in @75/60mg will follow up with pct Nolva 20/20/10/10 with aromasin on hand

 

[jbryand101b]

No, daa isn't going to help with suppression while using steroids.

You'll just have increased prolactin

 

[Dma378]

Interesting cycle

 

[Matthew1237]

Haha well my cycling all started with Ostarine but I soon after just made the decision to go with orals so I figured if I'm going to get shutdown and do a full pct I might as well make it worth it and throw in some Tren/Halo

 

[jbryand101b]

Great, here is my first question.

Can gyno be caused by low testosterone? Not just high estrogen.

Yes, if the androgen:estrogen balance is out of balance, and in favor of estrogen, this can lead to estrogenic sides

 

[jbryand101b]

Iv gone through this a couple times for some folks. would love to pass along the laymans explanation of how this kind of works when suppressed.

You are supplying your own test so the body reads that as having high levels and stops natty test production (AKA suppression)
The body constantly fights to stay in hormonal homeostasis, and so other hormones kick into gear to keep up with rising T levels
Some of this test in the body can aromatise (Even if the compound does not, your test still present in the body can, assuming not all test product shuts down, and with osta, that is a possibility)
Due to increased e levels, gyno symptoms can arise.
Taking e control and an on cycle AI can reduce these symptoms and send you on your merry way to a successful cycle without sides.
When coming off the osta, normal test production will resume to make up for lost T in the system and a SERM is used to keep other hormones under control while test catches up and the body is once again at homeostasis.

So, in other words, shiz happens and the body dies f'ed up stuff. always have chems on hand to combat these not so cool occurrences and PCT like a pro.

SCIENCE B*TCHES

This is a good layman's explanation.
But, Lh isn't ever fully suppressed, even on 600mg of Deca for 20 weeks. Lh is still being produced in the body, though in very tiny amounts.

This causes testicles to become desensitized to Lh effects. Test production slows.

Serms bind to estrogen receptors preventing estrogen from binding.

Other hormones will be out of wack.

Estrogen is also an anabolic hormone. (not an androgen though)

 

[Danes]

I just tried to find out why one would have estro sides when suppressed. Can't find a clear answer. I did find one bit of info stating that low T levels can mimic high estrogen via swollen breast tissue.

I would ASSUME it has something to do with a hormonal imbalance. Estrogen in men is not only from converted Test. We also produce a small amount. So if Test production is suppressed then the Estro in the body could be the dominant hormone.

That is a hunch. As I said I couldn't find a clear answer other than the low T symptoms.

Suppressed T can lead to lower E and DHT too.
I have heard some people reported E sides from supps. But when they took bloodwork, E Levels was more than fine.
Personaly i dont think ostarine would give Estrogen sides. I am not sure about prolactin.

Some of my friends complained about E sides from supps. But bloodwork showed low levels of iodine. After supplementing with iodine, gyno symptoms went away.

 

[BertBolic]

I dug around a bit an found out that the increase in prolactin from daa is proportional to the increase in test.

Does suppression also cause a decrease in prolactin? If that is the case, should daa not return prolactin closer to baseline along with test, leaving the ratio of the two about the same?