1 month after Trestolone/test PCT and toremifene failed

[wormwood]

I would just like to provide this anecdote to you guys out there considering trestolone decanoate. I ran my dose of Trestolone sometimes as high as 900mg/week for the last month I was on.

It shuts you down extremely bad - worst ever.

on cycle i ran test and hcg and still felt the effects of shutdown...

after stopping injections i took oxandrolone for 1 month as I was letting the long esters clear my system before beginning pct.

my pct consisted of:

Toremifene 120 mg week 1/ 60 mg for weeks 2-3/ and 30mg in week 4

throughout my cycle and pct i was taking 0.25 - 0.5mg of arimidex per day.

Here is what my blood work looked like 3 days after pct:

Total testosterone - 62 ng/dl (yes i know.. horrible. that's not a typo)
Free test - 14.5 pg/ml
vit D - 27ng/ml
estradiol - 34 pg/ml
hematocrit - 53.1%
HDL - 37mg/ml
LDL - 126 mg/ml


after receiving these results - i bumped my dosage up on the toremifene to 240mg/day and here was the next labs:

total test - 49 ng/dl - worse???
free test - 12.2 pg/ml - worse???
Estradiol - 19 pg/ml
prolactin - 4.8 ref range 2.0-18 - this is good at least, i think
LH 0.2 ref range 1.5-9.3 - terrible
FSH - 0.7 ref range1.6-8.0 - terrible
Ferretin - 27 ref range 20-345 - strange considering how much meat and leafy greens i eat.
ALT - 91 - probably from oxandrolone..
AST - 46 - probably from oxandrolone..
alkaline phosphatase - 29 ref range 40-115 - can't remember what this means


I explained to the doctor my extensive use of steroids/prohormones/designer steroids over the last 10 years and was as open as i could be - i told him all my dosages and pct protocols as best as I could remember them.

Since then i am now on the following:

HCG/B12 sub-q - 500iu every Mon/Wed/Fri
Clomid - 50mg/day
Vitamin D 50,000 iu once a week ( I take it on Tuesdays)
Ferrous Sulfate 325mg/day


I am shocked that Toremifene was so ineffective at doing anything. - the TRT doctor I saw wasn't too familiar with it.

I am really hoping my HPTA can be restored to equilibrium. I really don't want to be on TRT the rest of my life. after 3 weeks on HCG i feel slightly better but still don't feel good at all. I wonder if this is bc i stopped taking arimidex? maybe my estrogen levels are too high?

looking back - I should have just done test - i felt great when I was just on that and had no sides and was able to come off and recover quickly just fine with nolva or toremifene.

Should I be worried about intratesticular E2 levels since I am not currently taking arimidex? I still have some arimidex - should I continue taking it?

Should I be on aromasin?

Should I ask about Nolvadex?

I feel like being on hcg is an old school approach - will this not burn out my leydig cells?

Or should I be less concerned about estrogen at this point and be more concerned about restoring my brain's gonadotropin production?

I went to a TRT center so that I could feel more comfortable about discussing illicit use of these substances more openly. Maybe I should suck it up and see a legit endo and get a 2nd opinion? I'm having the worst emotional effects from all of this. I am extremely unstable right now.

Any insight anyone can provide to my situation or any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[wormwood]

Does anyone think that adding IGF-1 would aid in my recovery?

 

[mixedup]

Maybe torem was bunk

 

[wormwood]

it came from a trusted source - the old guys from ibe..... I doubt it. I always made sure to shake it vigorously to make sure it was in suspension....

I had seen a study that indicated that torem wasn't as effective at raising test levels in hypo men as nolva or clomid... maybe it simply has to do with the dose of trestolone i was on...

at any rate - I do feel a little better after being on hcg and clomid for a few weeks. I just wish this would work quicker as I feel like **** still..

I almost want to just say F it and tell them i'm ready for test and keep up with hcg for fertility... i'll give this a month and see what my labs produce though... I feel like my estradiol levels have been going up since discontinuing arimidex and starting clomid/hcg... something just doesn't feel right even though testicular volume seems back to normal and ejaculate seems to have increased in volume

 

[mixedup]

I've that torem was pretty old it could of lost potency but I like Clomid and tamox together I've had test come up lower than yours and come back

 

[wormwood]

It wasn't old.. manufactured in 2014


at any rate it didn't work.. What did your levels look like before and after?

How high did they get up to?

 

[bobi593]

I would just like to provide this anecdote to you guys out there considering trestolone decanoate. I ran my dose of Trestolone sometimes as high as 900mg/week for the last month I was on.

It shuts you down extremely bad - worst ever.

on cycle i ran test and hcg and still felt the effects of shutdown...

after stopping injections i took oxandrolone for 1 month as I was letting the long esters clear my system before beginning pct.

my pct consisted of:

Toremifene 120 mg week 1/ 60 mg for weeks 2-3/ and 30mg in week 4

throughout my cycle and pct i was taking 0.25 - 0.5mg of arimidex per day.

Here is what my blood work looked like 3 days after pct:

Total testosterone - 62 ng/dl (yes i know.. horrible. that's not a typo)
Free test - 14.5 pg/ml
vit D - 27ng/ml
estradiol - 34 pg/ml
hematocrit - 53.1%
HDL - 37mg/ml
LDL - 126 mg/ml


after receiving these results - i bumped my dosage up on the toremifene to 240mg/day and here was the next labs:

total test - 49 ng/dl - worse???
free test - 12.2 pg/ml - worse???
Estradiol - 19 pg/ml
prolactin - 4.8 ref range 2.0-18 - this is good at least, i think
LH 0.2 ref range 1.5-9.3 - terrible
FSH - 0.7 ref range1.6-8.0 - terrible
Ferretin - 27 ref range 20-345 - strange considering how much meat and leafy greens i eat.
ALT - 91 - probably from oxandrolone..
AST - 46 - probably from oxandrolone..
alkaline phosphatase - 29 ref range 40-115 - can't remember what this means


I explained to the doctor my extensive use of steroids/prohormones/designer steroids over the last 10 years and was as open as i could be - i told him all my dosages and pct protocols as best as I could remember them.

Since then i am now on the following:

HCG/B12 sub-q - 500iu every Mon/Wed/Fri
Clomid - 50mg/day
Vitamin D 50,000 iu once a week ( I take it on Tuesdays)
Ferrous Sulfate 325mg/day


I am shocked that Toremifene was so ineffective at doing anything. - the TRT doctor I saw wasn't too familiar with it.

I am really hoping my HPTA can be restored to equilibrium. I really don't want to be on TRT the rest of my life. after 3 weeks on HCG i feel slightly better but still don't feel good at all. I wonder if this is bc i stopped taking arimidex? maybe my estrogen levels are too high?

looking back - I should have just done test - i felt great when I was just on that and had no sides and was able to come off and recover quickly just fine with nolva or toremifene.

Should I be worried about intratesticular E2 levels since I am not currently taking arimidex? I still have some arimidex - should I continue taking it?

Should I be on aromasin?

Should I ask about Nolvadex?

I feel like being on hcg is an old school approach - will this not burn out my leydig cells?

Or should I be less concerned about estrogen at this point and be more concerned about restoring my brain's gonadotropin production?

I went to a TRT center so that I could feel more comfortable about discussing illicit use of these substances more openly. Maybe I should suck it up and see a legit endo and get a 2nd opinion? I'm having the worst emotional effects from all of this. I am extremely unstable right now.

Any insight anyone can provide to my situation or any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

how much HCG during the cycle and how long ?

 

[sanguine]

Maybe the issue is 900 mg of injectable trest per week..that is a monster dose compared to anything I've ever seen in the past.

 

[wormwood]

hcg while on cycle i would do 250iu twice a week - there were some times though that I missed a week or two on it due to waiting on my next vial of hcg to come in the mail

 

[Wilko]

Maybe the issue is 900 mg of injectable trest per week..that is a monster dose compared to anything I've ever seen in the past.

Shutdown sucks, but the 30lbs he must have gained must be nice.

 

[jbryand101b]

Did you continue to run hcg while on oxandra?

That long ester can hang out in your various fat cells for a long time.

I've been off eq since I think September/october and have been running pct products the entire time.
Just this last month I started to feel normal.

 

[wormwood]

jbryand101b - no I did not. My thinking was that it may hinder my ability to recover properly. I'm not sure why I thought of this - I remember reading somewhere that hcg was ultimately best for while on cycle and should be avoided in pct... but no the last 2 weeks on oxandrolone I ran out and didn't get more..

maybe the suppressive nature of 19-nor compounds and the long esters are delaying recovery two-fold..

You guys think I should up my cardio?

I have had very little motivation when working out though i'm sure that comes as no surprise to you guys..

 

[wormwood]

wilko - I didn't gain an astronomical amount of weight but I did increase my working reps (I don't ever max out) by 30% across the board and felt no pain whatsoever in my shoulders where I have been plagued by injury for the last 7 years to my rotator cuff.

I felt myself lean out quite well though I wasn't on a bulking diet - just ate slightly above maintenance cals and tried my best to keep it clean w protein intake high

 

[wormwood]

jbryand - have you had any bloodwork done?

 

[jbryand101b]

jbryand - have you had any bloodwork done?

Not yet, I will, as well as have my sperm checked as well in the next month or so.

 

[jbryand101b]

jbryand101b - no I did not. My thinking was that it may hinder my ability to recover properly. I'm not sure why I thought of this - I remember reading somewhere that hcg was ultimately best for while on cycle and should be avoided in pct... but no the last 2 weeks on oxandrolone I ran out and didn't get more..

maybe the suppressive nature of 19-nor compounds and the long esters are delaying recovery two-fold..

You guys think I should up my cardio?

I have had very little motivation when working out though i'm sure that comes as no surprise to you guys..

...

 

[bobi593]

hcg while on cycle i would do 250iu twice a week - there were some times though that I missed a week or two on it due to waiting on my next vial of hcg to come in the mail

maybe your hcg was overheat/damage { this stuff is very sensitive} and did not stimulate your balls this give you almost 8 weeks suppression {oxandrolone suppress too} your boys need more time to respond, you gonna be fine its just a matter of time btw keep pushing weights if you don't have motivation use some stimulants before the workouts...

 

[wormwood]

the trestolone gives you 8 weeks of suppression?

Or just being shut down in general takes 8 weeks to recover from?

****, that's a long time to wait... This sucks.

 

[TeamTGB]

If this was Trest Decanoate at 900mg that is going to take a while to be out of your system. So yes you could be still suppressed.

 

[jbryand101b]

If it's your goal to not be shut down for a long time, one should stay away from all Deca esterfied compounds.
Test, Deca, eq, etc)

By a long time I mean like 6-18 months, maybe even more

It all goes back to thorough research.

 

[wormwood]

yes it was trest decanoate... ****...

 

[AlexPowell]

Wait a month
Do a triptorelin shot

If that fails then good luck I guess

 

[wormwood]

I'll ask the doc what he thinks about triptorelin. I used it after my last test/winny cycle and it seemed to work pretty well. never got any bloodwork done but that combined with igf-1 seemed to make for a much better PCT than this...

Guess i need to re-read into some studies on triptorelin again and ask my doc about it.

 

[AlexPowell]

Are your nuts shrunk?

 

[wormwood]

they were. it seemed that it wasn't consistently that way. but as of right now they are beginning to feel like they're back to full swing.

I have been on 1500iu/week of hcg for 3 weeks now split into 500iu every mon/wed/fri though

that surely has to be helping

 

[AlexPowell]

maybe
I don't think hcg is going to work any more though. If it was going to work it would work by now

 

[wormwood]

i was off hcg for 8 weeks leading up to that initial blood test.

 

[daniel11]

when ever I need my HPTA to kick back into gear I go with Clomid. I use Exemestane as AI... If I am fighting gyno I add Nolva along side the Exemestane.

HCG is a great option but harder to get.

 

[wormwood]

i have a script for it - lucky me i guess.

 

[JoshR]

Did you happen to log your trest cycle anywhere? I'd love to know how long it took to kick in.

 

[wormwood]

I didn't unfortunately. I combined it with test after being on just test prop for 6 months. ran trest for about 3 months total - seemed to give me an insane boost after week 3-4.

 

[peter01]

That's a long cycle man. Might take a bit longer to get things going again....

 

[CATdiesel76]

The deconate could take months to get out of your system. Even though you think it's a trusted source, I'd bet money something wasn't right with the torem. Main reason I refuse to use it can't get it pharma grade. Not trusting my pct to hit or miss research chems

 

[wormwood]

I wish there was more data on triptorelin. I feel like that could be a major breakthrough in jumpstarting a suppressed HPTA.

 

[wormwood]

I am going back to the doc sometime this next week. Hopefully I can get more bloodwork done and see an improvement :/

 

[TeamTGB]

The decanoate ester is 15 days so i hate math but lets give it a shot

900mg 15days later
450mg
225mg
112.5mg
56.25mg
28.125mg
14.0625mg

Now that is a perfect world based on science which doesn't always apply but we should be able to get a good base off that so your looking at 105days almost 3 months for it to be pretty much cleared from your system.

 

[peter01]

1 point for acetate!

 

[wormwood]

so I'm about halfway there... ****..

I should have bookended my cycle with 6 months worth of test... ****. this makes me want to never touch gear again.

 

[SquatsAndOats]

The decanoate ester is 15 days so i hate math but lets give it a shot 900mg 15days later 450mg 225mg 112.5mg 56.25mg 28.125mg 14.0625mg Now that is a perfect world based on science which doesn't always apply but we should be able to get a good base off that so your looking at 105days almost 3 months for it to be pretty much cleared from your system.

That's assuming he only had 900mg in his system when he took his last dose. It could have Been much more

 

[wormwood]

built up over a few months... I see your math making sense now. I never even considered this. I am a complete fool.

 

[peter01]

built up over a few months... I see your math making sense now. I never even considered this. I am a complete fool.

No reason to beat yourself up over it now. Time to find a solution. You mentioned using test at the end had you known. Is this still an option?

 

[SquatsAndOats]

built up over a few months... I see your math making sense now. I never even considered this. I am a complete fool.

Look for one of those pct calculators online and put your dosages for your cycle in as best you can remember. It gives you a graph of your levels at a certain week and tells you when you should start pct.

 

[AlexPowell]

Just wait it out another month lol
Then hit the gonadotropins again

If you're ****ed, you're ****ed. No amount of d-aspartic acid or whatever else is going to fix that

 

[CATdiesel76]

I think you will be fine it's just going to take awhile. The Trest Deca was intended more for people on TRT or those who blast and cruise

 

[wormwood]

Unfortunately I can't get to the doc bc they have been closed due to weather... my vial of hcg expires on Thursday.. guess i won't have a refill in time for when it expires.... awesome...

 

[Wilko]

Some HCG is better than none.

 

[wormwood]

was able to get blood drawn today. should have results back hopefully by the end of the week. got some more hcg. we'll see how this plays out. :/

 

[bobi593]

was able to get blood drawn today. should have results back hopefully by the end of the week. got some more hcg. we'll see how this plays out. :/

How is your mood /libido / strength. physical condition today if you compare this what you had one month ago slowly increasing is better or is still the same ?

 

[wormwood]

mood/emotions are extremely unstable. strength has decreased but haven't been very diligent during workouts. libido is decreased but still operational. physical condition is now at a point where I was before I went on trestolone and back to what it was after running 6 months of test before the trestolone began.

 

[00S4Boy]

The decanoate ester is 15 days so i hate math but lets give it a shot

900mg 15days later
450mg
225mg
112.5mg
56.25mg
28.125mg
14.0625mg

Now that is a perfect world based on science which doesn't always apply but we should be able to get a good base off that so your looking at 105days almost 3 months for it to be pretty much cleared from your system.

Not even close. Trestolone ace used in human study's was fully suppressive at even 1mg a day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10469681