first PH cycle EP15TANE, could you check it please?

[athene]

Hi everyone,

Im a 38 y-o man 6 4", 205 lb at around 20% bf. I've never been much in shape and my usual bf has been around 23-25. My fat is usually on my tits, lower abs, love handles and thighs. This together with a full line of hair and not a developed muscularity makes me think I don't have much test/have more estrogen than average. I have no blodwork, it is harder to get in my country. I have changed diet and eat mostly high protein low carb, and have done a bit of supplement to boost testosterone. Also, I've been lifting for three years, but time and again I crash when I reach about 200 lb for squat, 135 for BP and 250 for DL (5 rep max for all). My lower body seems more developed than my upper body. Training is coumpounds with barbell 5x3-4 sets 3 times per week.

I want to try a PH cycle and have on the way Ep15tane and Sup3r PCT by OL, and also have my Tamoxifen. The cycle would be this:

Cycle

EPI 30/30/45/45/45/45
Sylimarin 180 6 weeks
NAC 400 6 weeks

Post Cycle

Tamoxifen 20/20/10/10/10
Sup3r PCT 4/4/3/3/2/1

My questions are:

Should I Start Tamoxifen and Super PCT at the same time or let the second start 2 weeks after tamoxifen.?
Is there anything missing? Should I also take an AI during the cycle?

I'm not in a hurry to start it, so should I cut a little more fat before doing it. Would it make sense to make a natty test booster cycle now with lecheek AD3-PCT now and postpone the EPI cycle?

I'm aiming for a recomp/mild cut here.

Thanks everyone

 

[athene]

Forgot to ad, best shape I've ever been was 186 at about 16% bf this past summer, and it was getting really hard to come down from that even with a very, very clean diet. Even at that weight I have cellullitis in my thighs.

My heaviest ever weight has been 260 lb back in 2007.

 

[nclifter28]

Epistane can realy make you lethargic. i would strongly suggest getting bps dermacrin Too keep you feeling good on your cycle

 

[Jps21085]

I ran EP15TANE and TR3N from OL about two years ago with great results and my PCT was about the same as yours. To get the best results make sure your diet and training are on point. I see so many people run PH thinking they will work magic and slack on there diet and training only to see no results. I did get very "lethargic" and lost a little sex drive but I did run a higher dosage. Wishing your great GAINZZZZ!!!!!

 

[frankz2]

With regards to your cycle, you will want to add an AI week 3 of PCT to run a couple weeks beyond your tamoxifen to reduce the likelihood of rebound gyno which can occur with epi.

With that said, at 6'4 you should be able to improve your body comp significantly beyond 205 and 20% bf naturally with proper training and nutrition. You noted that with perfect diet you were only able to get down to 186 and 16% but I would suggest that at 6'4, your frame should be able to hold significantly more mass. If you have such difficulties it may be worth it to get blood tests and hormone panels run to assess that aspect prior to cycling as there may be greater issues in play.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Yea you could throw in some dermacrine by BPS. Check it out over at Strong Supplement Shop.
http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/dermacrine-by-bps

 

[LeanEngineer]

Yea you could throw in some dermacrine by BPS. Check it out over at Strong Supplement Shop.
http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/dermacrine-by-bps

 

[RickyBlobby]

If you can afford it I'd run trestoderm with it. I had an amazing cycle at 45mg ep15tane and 75mg tr3st. Super alpha mode AND I put on 10 lbs while on a serious cut.
-3-4%BF and + 10lbs. Amazing recomp. You will also need a good aromatase inhibitor with the trest and DEFINATELY something for the joints either route you chose

 

[RickyBlobby]

Just watch out if you are prone to hairloss epi will eat your lunch. Better get some nizoral shampoo AND some 5% minoxidil. That's IF you are prone to MPB

 

[Dma378]

I'll second the need to run a proper AI starting week 3 of pct. No need for one on cycle with Epi. Have one on hand for ANY cycle though. Exemestane is great in pct not only to inhibit estrogen, but in boosting natural test production and raising LH.

And yes, start Nolva and Sup3r PCT at the same time.

 

[Tabascoonall]

how does this look

Week 1-4 Nolva 20/20/10/10
Weel 1-4 DAA 3/3/3/3
Week 1-6 Sup3r PCT 4/4/3/3/2/1
Week 3-On Reduce XT

anything to add? might add in myokem magnitropin

 

[athene]

Hi again

Getting a prescription AI (exemestane, letrozol...) is going to be really difficult. Not so much with tamoxifen and clomiphene, which are sold in pharmacies namely on prescription but they turn a blind eye on it in reality. And I've got 30 20 mg tablets, so I could go further with it, like 20/20/10/10/10/10. Any alternative OTC AI that I could add on week 3 of PCT to prevent rebound gyno?

Also I'm looking into adding Dermacrine or Trestoderm to it. Sourcing the products is the real problem here. Living in Spain they don't sell PH's over here and things can get stuck at customs if ordered from the States. I've had to order my Epi and super pct from UK, and pay them through the nose...

 

[LeanEngineer]

You could try the UK strong supplement shop site and check out dermacrine by bps.

 

[Chad Frazier]

Agreed

 

[athene]

Agreed

Sorry, agreed with? Dermacrine? AI?

 

[athene]

got the goodies today. I haven't preloaded or anything, so it will have to wait. I'm in two minds here regarding cycle support. Is HB really necessary or could I just do with NAC and milk thistle? I wanted to keep it simple, but the supplement list is increasing exponentially. Currently I'm already on 3g fish oil, 2000 IU Vit D3 and 400 IU vit E.

Finally, some pic from this morning:

 

[Chad Frazier]

Sorry, agreed with? Dermacrine? AI?

Dermacrine at strongsupplementshop was what I was agreeing with

 

[athene]

Hi again,

I'll be adding the dermacrine to the cycle, so this is how it looks now:

Cycle

EPI 30/30/45/45/45/45
Lecheek cycle armour (instead of milk thisle and NAC. Seems to have other protection funtions as well)
Dermacrine 4 pumps 6 weeks

Post Cycle

Tamoxifen 20/20/10/10/10/10
Sup3r PCT 4/4/3/3/2/1
DAA 3/3/3/3

I'll also buy cissus and taurine. With these, would my cycle and PCT be complete?

The last question is, from my pictures, would you recommend a cut? Having been an overweight kid most of my life seeing some definition and hardness would be a moral triumph for me, but I'm a bit scared I'll look too thin. Imput on this?

Thanks in advance

 

[yates84]

6 weeks of pct is a little long imo. How about 20/20/10/10. Also, you need an ai of some sort to run past your serm because of epistane rebound. A recomp would probably be your best bet, cut a little fat and add a little bit of muscle.

 

[athene]

That's my problem, getting an AI. OTC's I can do no problem, but prescription are hard to come by. Buying research is difficult due to customs, it would be considered a felony

 

[yates84]

That's my problem, getting an AI. OTC's I can do no problem, but prescription are hard to come by. Buying research is difficult due to customs, it would be considered a felony

Then get an otc, should be all you need any way. Just don't want you to get gyno my friend

 

[athene]

Then get an otc, should be all you need any way. Just don't want you to get gyno my friend

I could run the sup3r PTC and a lecheek's AD3-E back to back. Right?

 

[yates84]

I could run the sup3r PTC and a lecheek's AD3-E back to back. Right?

I don't see any reason why not. Is that just armistane?

 

[athene]

Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings per Container: 30

AD-3 Blend:
Testosterone Support:
Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione – 75mg

GH Support:
Velvet Bean (standardized L-Dopa 99%) – 800mg

Liver Support:
Milk Thistle – 360mg

I'd go Super PCT 4/4/4/4 Then AD-3 PCT 2/2/2/1/1

 

[yates84]

Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings per Container: 30

AD-3 Blend:
Testosterone Support:
Androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione – 75mg

GH Support:
Velvet Bean (standardized L-Dopa 99%) – 800mg

Liver Support:
Milk Thistle – 360mg

I'd go Super PCT 4/4/4/4 Then AD3-E 2/2/2/1/1

Start ad3 3rd week of pct and run 2 weeks past your serm and you should be gtg

 

[Dma378]

Agree with Yates. You need some muscle and the only way to get it is with food. Proper food. So cutting would not be advised. While on cycle eat at slightly over your TDEE. Your body is going to be working more efficiently and partitioning calories better, so a slight surplus will still provide a recomp effect.

 

[athene]

Would it look like this?

Tamoxifen 20/20/10/10/10 -> 5 weeks. Should i include a 6th?
Sup3r PCT 4/4/4/4 -> has 50 mg arimistane.
AD-3 PCT 0/0/0/2/2/2/2 -> 7 weeks. Has 75 mg arimistane. On week 4 I'll be taking 125 mg...
DAA 3/3/3/3-< first 4 weeks

Not sure if I've sorted it out, sorry.

As for diet, I'll follow your advice, Dma. Recomp.

 

[yates84]

Just go with your nolva 20/20/10/10 and your ad3 0/0/2/2/2/2
DAA and super pct doses and timing look good, you could even taper off the super pct and stretch another week out of it

 

[Tabascoonall]

I always here different things about nolva, it seems to me its a 70/30 split with 20/20/10/10 and 20/20/20/20 its interesting, ALL i know is liquid nolva is not something i enjoy drinking hahahah chaser very needed

 

[yates84]

I always here different things about nolva, it seems to me its a 70/30 split with 20/20/10/10 and 20/20/20/20 its interesting, ALL i know is liquid nolva is not something i enjoy drinking hahahah chaser very needed

Its always good practice to taper off serms

 

[Tabascoonall]

Its always good practice to taper off serms

yeah i know thats what i have been doing its just interesting how many different takes people have on a small topic like this

 

[jp_x_type]

To be honest with you, I would put the EPI aside for a later date and focus on the basics: training and diet. No offense, but from the pictures you posted you do not seem to have them ironed out yet. You need to have these in place before touching any pro-hormones. The Epi will probably not even work for you if your basics are not in place, especially if you think it will be the magi bullet that transforms you from a regular guy into a beast. You clearly need to pack on muscle and shift your body's hormones towards higher test levels, but, I repeat, this is done first and foremost through proper nutrition and hard training. The Epi is just the icing on the cake when you get these two things right. Just my two cents

 

[athene]

To be honest with you, I would put the EPI aside for a later date and focus on the basics: training and diet. No offense, but from the pictures you posted you do not seem to have them ironed out yet. You need to have these in place before touching any pro-hormones. The Epi will probably not even work for you if your basics are not in place, especially if you think it will be the magi bullet that transforms you from a regular guy into a beast. You clearly need to pack on muscle and shift your body's hormones towards higher test levels, but, I repeat, this is done first and foremost through proper nutrition and hard training. The Epi is just the icing on the cake when you get these two things right. Just my two cents

I understand what you say. Believe me, I know I'll never be a beast. There is a post over here with a checklist of yes and no's to decide if you should go for a cycle. I check them all no problem.

Actually, I'd be starting this cycle to see if by adding a little more muscle, decreasing a little fat, handling heavier weights nad executing an impeccable PCT I could offset my hormonal balance a bit and get going from there.

At 38, my capacity for recovery is sh*t, if I try to eat more -always clean- to improve it, it just goes to fat with little muscle growth, and I still can't handle heavier weights. I've tried low volume, high volume, low and high rep, linear and waves, I hit a wall at certain weights.

5 years ago I started looking for a baby with my wife, and soon discovered I was oligoteratospermic and with ****ty mobility to round it off. After doing my research I took clomid for 2 months and bingo, my son is now two years old. I'm a vet and have my own microscope, I could see the improvement in quality (sorry if this is TMI).

However, I'm not in a hurry to do the cycle. I mean, of course I want to, but it can wait. But I must do something differently. Training and eating just doesn't cut it.

I could try a test booster cycle with DAA and the Ad-3 for a month and see if there is an improvement. Then I'd order another AD-3 bottle and start the cycle in April or May. Would that make more sense in my situation?

 

[athene]

That second option has not received a lot of backup XD

 

[yates84]

I'm having real good gains from epic right now, its a natural anabolic that doesn't effect hpta. If you did want to hold off on the epistane epic would be a good choice

 

[frankz2]

I'm having real good gains from epic right now, its a natural anabolic that doesn't effect hpta. If you did want to hold off on the epistane epic would be a good choice

This. A natty stack like EP1C and Dermastrength could give you the boost you're looking for without playing with hormones. Should see a nice boost in strength, endurance, and some lean gains assuming diet and training are on point.

 

[yates84]

This. A natty stack like EP1C and Dermastrength could give you the boost you're looking for without playing with hormones. Should see a nice boost in strength, endurance, and some lean gains assuming diet and training are on point.

Yeah, I'm running both of those right now. 3 weeks into pct and my strength and weight is up like I never got off cycle. Would recommend them both to anyone

 

[frankz2]

Love it. I'll be starting this exact pair shortly as well.

 

[yates84]

Love it. I'll be starting this exact pair shortly as well.

You won't be disappointed. Running epic at 3 caps a day btw. Only side effect has been some acne

 

[athene]

Hi again,

I'm not really worried about running the PH, so I think I'll go with Dma's recommendation and eat a bit over TDEE.

 

[athene]

Well, finally I started EPI/dermacrine on Monday. Coupling it with Cycle Defense (celery burps, a lot). Starting Cissus and Taurine just in case. Let's see where it goes. This isn't exactly going to be a log, but it will help me keep my notes and might help other newbies as well.

I've coupled it up with GVT which I had never done before. BP/BOR supersets + flies/chin ups for chest and back, zercher squats/hamstring curls + calf raises and hanging leg raises for leg/abs, OHP/Biceps curls + lateral raises and bac deltoid raises for arms and shoulders. I have a small setting in the garage (open, 5º C in there, brrrr) with barbells and a little rack. The weights I move are ridiculous for most people here, but for example yesterday leg day had me move 8 Tm.

The thing is I feel unreal most of the time. Dettached. Headache on and off. It's as if you had been given a black magic potion You are sick but at the same time feel stronger. I didn't feel right but could do all 10 rep 10 sets for the squats, when by the 3rd set I thought I wouldn't be able to even finish. I've got bruises on my forearms.

I've got a question regarding the headaches. I'm prone to those, probable stress-induced (stiff neck), and I've been unable to find any gidelines regarding usage of NSAIDs on PH cycle. It would pose additional stress on the liver, I guess. Can I take Ibuprofen for those, or any other drug that is less toxic perhaps?

 

[yates84]

I would stay away from nsaids if at all possible. Headaches are usually a sign of high blood pressure, you should be checking your bp regularly on cycle. Stay away from stimulants as well while on cycle. Ibuprofen is ok to use every once in a while

 

[athene]

BP is fine, it's got more to do with bad posture and working with computers. I have 1-2 headaches per week, more if I'm training back and shoulders. I'll try to not take any pills. And reduce coffee

 

[Dma378]

Definitely reduce the coffee, and up the water. Are you doing any cardio? It can sometimes help with BP and headaches. Tell me why you say your BP is fine.

 

[athene]

measured it, 110/70. Water is up to 3 litres, I'm constantly going to the loo. no, no cardio at all. I've got a 2 y-o kid, that's my cardio :09:

 

[Jps21085]

I just noticed that you started this Monday. Just a little fyi it will take you about two weeks to really notice anything on a PH. Be patient and don't let people's bad sides talk get in your head the mind can make you feel things that are really coming form the cycle lol.

 

[Tabascoonall]

I just noticed that you started this Monday. Just a little fyi it will take you about two weeks to really notice anything on a PH. Be patient and don't let people's bad sides talk get in your head the mind can make you feel things that are really coming form the cycle lol.

couldn't agree more, all these negive things people say and all the sides it can really freak someone out, just be calm and work your butt off in the gym and eat in a kcal surplus for the most part and you will see great results. just have the right mindset

 

[sinewave3]

measured it, 110/70. Water is up to 3 litres, I'm constantly going to the loo. no, no cardio at all. I've got a 2 y-o kid, that's my cardio :09:

Keep at the water. I noticed I get dehydrated MUCH easier on cycle then can get headaches. Just don't piss your pants!
Also some people can feel crappy from low blood sugar. Might want to have a snack on you invade you are busy and miss a meal.

 

[athene]

I just noticed that you started this Monday. Just a little fyi it will take you about two weeks to really notice anything on a PH. Be patient and don't let people's bad sides talk get in your head the mind can make you feel things that are really coming form the cycle lol.

Lol, I know, I know. I'm not blaming the Epi for it. It is probably a combination of new chemicals running through me (cycle defense, taurine, NAC, cissus, I'm popping pills in all day...), a cold I am on the edge to start, or maybe it's the nanovapor preworkout. Epi shouldn't be doing anything as of yet.

 

[athene]

Starting second week. Just sore, very sore from the GVT, but everything else is allright. Up 2 pounds and looking a wee bit more shapely. I've had to change to back squats since the bruise in my forearm popped up inmediatly on the second zercher squat session and began to swell.