First PH/DS -Havoc- Cycle Critique

[Will_]

I have decided to go for it albeit conservatively for the first 'real' time. I did LG science M1D black on it's own with solid strength gains compared to creatine, protein and so forth. Successful conservative OTC PCT, this was last year. I really want to just say 'f*ck it' and pin test, but that's a can of worms I may open only after I do this successfully. Not because I think it's more dangerous. Just more expensive and logistically tougher.

After tons and tons of reading, I am going to give epi a short, conservative run, partially because I have a tiny bit of (almost entirely unnoticeable) pubertal gyno, but the pebbles are still there. I chose epi b/c for the anabolic/androgenic ratio, there are bazillions of reading sources for it, no E conversion, etc. It came between Havoc, Hdrol, or 1andro, and I am chose Havoc.


Background Stats
Age: 23
Height: 5'9"
BW: 152lbs.. I know.. keep reading
BF: 10%
Chest: 42"
Waist: 29"
Arms: 14.5"
Legs: 21" unflexed

Lifting Stats
Squat: 275... I know
DL: 400
Bench: 245
OHP: neighborhood of 155
Max cont. pullups: 30
Max cont. pushups: 106

Goals
Bulk. I hired a dietician to help me with my already sound understanding of diet. I have a strict plan.. below.

I want strength first, size second, in order of priorities.

I would like to gain (net/keep) 8-10lbs. I weighed 167 in June, and between manual labor and writing my senior thesis, I have gotten smaller.. my strength pound for pound is still okay I think.

Cycle

(taken always and throughout: fish oil, ON multi, Whey and Casein)
Week 1: Pre-Load Liv.52 and AI Cycle Support
Week 2: 20 Havoc -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 2: 30 Havoc -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 3: 30 Havoc -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 4: 30 Havoc -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 5 (?): 30 Havoc -- Cycle Support, Liv.52

PCT:
Week 6: 20mg nolva -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 7: 20mg nolva -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 8: 10mg nolva -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 9: 10mg nolva -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 10: 2cap ERASE -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52
Week 11: 1cap ERASe -- Lean Xtreme -- creatine -- Cycle Support, Liv.52


Questions

1) I am worried about E rebound after the cycle, which apparently is not all that uncommon with epi. Though not that common with such low dosing. Hence the Nolva taper followed by the Erase taper. I have seen some logs with this -- any thoughts?

2) I know people will say start at 30, but I just want to hit this very cautiously. I cannot decide between 20/30/30/30, or add one more week of 30 at the end. Any thoughts?

3) I currently take super low doses (5mg 2x daily) of adderall. I am going to hit the Hawthorne Berry in addition to Liv. 52 to help combat the BP rise -- or is taking the tiny bits of adderall out? I am still in school, and it helps quite a bit, which is why I would rather keep it in.

Diet

Lifting Days: 3190 c
P: 239g
F: 71g
C: 398g

Rest Days: 2440 c
P: 244
F: 81
C: 182


Workout

I am going to Layne Norton's PHAT. I have had awesome results with that in the past.


I welcome ANY feedback. Thanks

 

[harbonah]

1 stick with your plan it's not bad and adding erase won't hurt.

2. I would start at 30 lol had to 5 weeks is fine I don't see many gains after week 4 with epistane anyway.

3.it should be fine I'm on ADHD meds and have never had an issue with BP on epistane solo add a wet ph and you might have a problem. But keep an eye on it everyone is different.

 

[Will_]

1 stick with your plan it's not bad and adding erase won't hurt.

2. I would start at 30 lol had to 5 weeks is fine I don't see many gains after week 4 with epistane anyway.

3.it should be fine I'm on ADHD meds and have never had an issue with BP on epistane solo add a wet ph and you might have a problem. But keep an eye on it everyone is different.

Thanks for the input. I figured I would see gains since I am basically a first time user save the M1D.. so I thought my virgin receptors would be all over it.

I am just nervous about the E rebound mostly... not trying bench 3 fiddy if it comes with a pair of titties if you know what I mean.

Repped. Thank you.

 

[yates84]

Solid plan, good job on doing your homework. If you are worried about rebound grab some letro and keep it in the cabinet.

 

[Will_]

I have one more question open to anyone: I have recently followed some other epi threads, and I was wondering -- keeping the ERASE in PCT as per yates' advice -- is that a strong enough AI to control rebound? strong enough, and long enough I guess is what I am asking?

I will have Letro on hand just in case I get all Kate Upton, but I have heard that because it's so effective, it feelsbadman.

 

[Tabascoonall]

You have done your HW and looks solid, i would start with 30mgs i had similar stats to you and i ran 30/30/45/45/45/45 (Ep15tane).

Your pct looks solid, i would add SNS reduce xt in there and start that week 3 not your pct. but good job tapping the nolva

 

[Atreyufan31]

Looks good. Similar to mine. I'm in for the ride to see the gains

 

[LeanEngineer]

Yea u could definitely add some reduce xt by sns to that. Heres a link to strong supplement shop if you need to pick some up.
http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/reduce-xt-by-serious-nutrition-solutions

 

[Matthersby]

I really, truly think that dosage is too low. Epi is the gentlest methyl out there. 40/5-6 weeks. That's STILL a conservative dose....

 

[plifter42]

First, start off at 30mgs of Epi not 20mgs. Mild compound. No need to preload if you have both Cycle Support and Liv52.
Start taking the Erase Pro at 1 cap a day stacked with the Nolva starting a day after your last dose of Epi as well. May want to throw in another test booster to preserve gains but creatine should be fine for that. I find that pre-workouts really help during PCT. Maybe throw in 6,000-10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during PCT as well.

 

[Ianj66]

Subbed, I'm about to run the exact same cycle and have the same PCT, I think I may go 30/30/30/40 per all the advice I've gotten, may do 20 the first day.

Pct is nolva 20/20/10/10 and was and cycle assist. May do dome reduce xt. And d-asparic acid what do ya think? Also should I grab some erase just in case??

 

[Matthersby]

I'm going to troll every epi thread until guys start running adequate doses. I've ran it @40 for 6 weeks with 0 side effects and liver enzymes within range... This stuff has been around for quite a while and the sweet spot has always been 40-50mg. I totally get running it at 20-30 for the first week in case sides present themselves, but then get it to that sweet spot.

 

[Ianj66]

I'm going to troll every epi thread until guys start running adequate doses. I've ran it @40 for 6 weeks with 0 side effects and liver enzymes within range... This stuff has been around for quite a while and the sweet spot has always been 40-50mg. I totally get running it at 20-30 for the first week in case sides present themselves, but then get it to that sweet spot.

The higher doses won't increase the chances from not coming back from shutdown?

 

[Will_]

Looks good. Similar to mine. I'm in for the ride to see the gains

I'm subbed to your thread. Good luck mane.

Yea u could definitely add some reduce xt by sns to that. Heres a link to strong supplement shop if you need to pick some up.


Thanks! I think that's a good idea. I was under the impression Lean Xtreme was something else.. sounds like a glorified thermogenic which I suppose is good for combatting the limbo/lethargy of getting your nuts up and running again.. glad you recommended Reduce, somehow I thought that's what lean xtreme was designed to do. Too many names.

repped

I really, truly think that dosage is too low. Epi is the gentlest methyl out there. 40/5-6 weeks. That's STILL a conservative dose....

Alrighty. I will just sack up and do it. 30/30/30/3-40/40.

Keep in mind I am not very big. I used to be this height and 170, but I was getting a little soggy around the midsection and slow on the track and trails, and anything cardio.

So i cut down, and now I can throw my body around like a play toy with bodyweight stuff. I want the weight back in muscle without the soggy. Hence the epistane.

First, start off at 30mgs of Epi not 20mgs. Mild compound. No need to preload if you have both Cycle Support and Liv52.
Start taking the Erase Pro at 1 cap a day stacked with the Nolva starting a day after your last dose of Epi as well. May want to throw in another test booster to preserve gains but creatine should be fine for that. I find that pre-workouts really help during PCT. Maybe throw in 6,000-10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during PCT as well.

Noted, thank you. I have not seen much of Erase immediately -- presumably at a low dose to keep E at bay while you hit the nolva, and then ramp up Erase as nolva goes down, and then taper Erase after all is said and done?

I have D3 and DAA already lined up. Forgot to mention that.

Thanks again, this is all very helpful.

I'm going to troll every epi thread until guys start running adequate doses. I've ran it @40 for 6 weeks with 0 side effects and liver enzymes within range... This stuff has been around for quite a while and the sweet spot has always been 40-50mg. I totally get running it at 20-30 for the first week in case sides present themselves, but then get it to that sweet spot.

But I am a little bitch and easily frightened by the unknown..... jk. Good to know, thanks. Part of the reason I'm going for something relatively OG like epi is for that exact reason. I have probably read in the realm of 150-200 logs with various measures of completeness... and competence.

I will do just that. Start low and toe the water to see what happens, and get up to 40 by week 3, maybe higher by week 5. I have read logs of guys my size getting nose bleeds at 50, but who is to say how a)dumb they are at mitigating sides in general and b) targeting BP in specific, which appears to be the most common side of epi... if any at all.

I never really understood that in so many logs. EPI is so great as far as anabolic:androgenic, and sides:gains, there are two main things to worry about --BP and rebound, with maybe some prolactin issues for some.

And yet, there are still daily threads like "yo do i need pct or w/e for epi stuff (or SD.. or DMZ).... also my BP is like 190/100... is that something I should worry about? PLZ guyz i need help i think"

I really don't want to be that guy.

 

[Matthersby]

No. You'll be shut down regardless. Your body will almost certainly recover function A serm just speeds this process up making any gains made able to be kept to a degree. If guys recover from 20 week test/deca/superdrol runs, you'll recover from a month of epi....

 

[Will_]

Alright, start date is Thursday 1/29.

Final update before I start the log:

Pre-loading cycle support now.. half doses, even if it's excessive.

Then: 20/30/30/40/40 of Havoc
With: Liv.52, AI Cycle support, Taurine if needed, Fish Oil, Caber if needed

PCT: 20/20/20/10/10 with nolva
With: 1/1/1/2/3/3/3/2/1 with ERASE
And: Reduce dosed evenly throughout, as well as Liv.52 and AI CS, and Caber if needed.

Currently on a bulk diet, and up several lbs so starting weight is 153.6lbs, at about 12% BF. I do a flat addition of 200kcal/day on both rest and workout days, and continue too add calories as necessary.

THANKS for all the help to everyone who replied to this thread. I'm excited to join the dark side.

 

[Ianj66]

Good luck man looking forward to your progress I will be starting almost an identical cycle as soon as my cycle support comes in.