a clen thought experiment - AnabolicMinds.com

a clen thought experiment

  1. the triumph of the grill
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    a clen thought experiment


    Because it occurred to me that I've never seen anyone else talk about this explicitly, I'd like to demonstrate quantitatively why it's bad to ramp clen too fast. Let's take an example cycle and calculate the actual concentration of clen in the body over the length of the cycle. I'll assume that upon consuming clen the concentration increases more or less instantaneously. This does not introduce much error, since the time it takes for clen to hit the system is very short compared to its half-life.

    In order to calculate the concentration, we add the new dose to yesterday's concentration divided by 2^(24/35) (this is the amount that the clen degrades over a 24-hour period given that it has a half-life of 35 hours). So for a cycle that goes 40/60/60/80/80/100/100/120/120/140/140/140/160/160/160 (note that I'm only giving this as an example, not saying that one should necessarily do such a cycle), daily concentrations are 40.0/84.9/112.8/150.1/173.3/207.8/229.2/262.5/283.2/316.0/336.5/349.2/377.1/394.4/405.2.

    Now it should be obvious why you should ramp clen slowly: even on two successive days at the same dose, the concentration in your body is still increasing! This means that if you start to have trouble with the dose and decide "I'll play it safe and keep it the same tomorrow," you could end up in even more trouble the next day.

    Be safe with that clen, guys. This ain't your mom's dexatrim.

    -kwantam
    (Clearly, all information in this post is in reference to my pet heifer, not to me! Daisy says: MOOOOOOOOO!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    Because it occurred to me that I've never seen anyone else talk about this explicitly, I'd like to demonstrate quantitatively why it's bad to ramp clen too fast. Let's take an example cycle and calculate the actual concentration of clen in the body over the length of the cycle. I'll assume that upon consuming clen the concentration increases more or less instantaneously. This does not introduce much error, since the time it takes for clen to hit the system is very short compared to its half-life.

    In order to calculate the concentration, we add the new dose to yesterday's concentration divided by 2^(24/35) (this is the amount that the clen degrades over a 24-hour period given that it has a half-life of 35 hours). So for a cycle that goes 40/60/60/80/80/100/100/120/120/140/140/140/160/160/160 (note that I'm only giving this as an example, not saying that one should necessarily do such a cycle), daily concentrations are 40.0/84.9/112.8/150.1/173.3/207.8/229.2/262.5/283.2/316.0/336.5/349.2/377.1/394.4/405.2.

    Now it should be obvious why you should ramp clen slowly: even on two successive days at the same dose, the concentration in your body is still increasing! This means that if you start to have trouble with the dose and decide "I'll play it safe and keep it the same tomorrow," you could end up in even more trouble the next day.

    Be safe with that clen, guys. This ain't your mom's dexatrim.

    -kwantam
    (Clearly, all information in this post is in reference to my pet heifer, not to me! Daisy says: MOOOOOOOOO!)
    I don't know much about clen, but through my cycle have been taking it slowly and have only increased when I feel little or no sides and only by 10mcgs. Up to 90 mcgs now. I give clen lot's of respect.
  3. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    I give clen lot's of respect.
    Glad to hear it; keep up the good work!

    How's your cut coming? Seeing decent results so far?

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    Glad to hear it; keep up the good work!

    How's your cut coming? Seeing decent results so far?

    -kwantam
    It's going okay, I'm in PCT right now so my calories are still pretty high but just upping the cardio work along with clen has helped. It's also my first clen cycle. I read somewhere that if everything is in check Nutrition/cardio that after two two week cycles the cuts should be coming along nicely. Hope that's true. I'm on day 11 right now so I'm probably going to finish this cycle at 100mcgs.
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    I was thinking the same thing this morning. Im going to try an every other day dosing schedule. If that doesnt work, then Ill try 2 on 1 off.
  6. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondDriven
    I was thinking the same thing this morning. Im going to try an every other day dosing schedule. If that doesnt work, then Ill try 2 on 1 off.
    You might even consider every 36 hours.

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    You might even consider every 36 hours.

    -kwantam
    Kwantam-

    Have you tried this, or even the 2 on 2off method? If so have you seen results?

    I read that the 2weeks on and 2weeks off was the best unless you had keto.
  8. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    Have you tried this, or even the 2 on 2off method? If so have you seen results?

    I read that the 2weeks on and 2weeks off was the best unless you had keto.
    I've heard that 2 days on 2 days off is popular in the UK, but I honestly don't really like that idea much---your receptors will still be downgrading over time, so the efficacy will be going down with every 4-day cycle, meaning you have to up the dose, but with only 2 days you don't have very long for the dose to stabilize. Overall, I'd say you're either going to be getting worse results or incurring more risk.

    I haven't tried every 36 hours, I was only suggesting it as a way of getting a more stable circulating clen level than 2 days on 1 off. I think the best thing to do is stay at once per 24 hours and just ramp slowly while gauging your tolerance. Are your sides horrible? What does your cycle look like so far?

    As far as 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, yes, definitely. Some people extend this to 3, but there's a study floating around out there that implies that clen's anti-catabolism tails off after 17 days, which means you could be losing LBM. You can use ECA or something like that during the off weeks.

    Ketotifen will keep your receptors clear, which means you can run clen for longer, though like I said I've seen claims that clen's anti-catabolic effects go away after a while even with the use of keto. Also, be careful when dosing clen with ketotifen; it makes the clen stronger, which makes sense, since most clen cycles are a continuous battle against receptor degradation, and keto reduces this degradation.

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    I've heard that 2 days on 2 days off is popular in the UK, but I honestly don't really like that idea much---your receptors will still be downgrading over time, so the efficacy will be going down with every 4-day cycle, meaning you have to up the dose, but with only 2 days you don't have very long for the dose to stabilize. Overall, I'd say you're either going to be getting worse results or incurring more risk.

    I haven't tried every 36 hours, I was only suggesting it as a way of getting a more stable circulating clen level than 2 days on 1 off. I think the best thing to do is stay at once per 24 hours and just ramp slowly while gauging your tolerance. Are your sides horrible? What does your cycle look like so far?

    As far as 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, yes, definitely. Some people extend this to 3, but there's a study floating around out there that implies that clen's anti-catabolism tails off after 17 days, which means you could be losing LBM. You can use ECA or something like that during the off weeks.

    Ketotifen will keep your receptors clear, which means you can run clen for longer, though like I said I've seen claims that clen's anti-catabolic effects go away after a while even with the use of keto. Also, be careful when dosing clen with ketotifen; it makes the clen stronger, which makes sense, since most clen cycles are a continuous battle against receptor degradation, and keto reduces this degradation.

    -kwantam
    My sides aren't bad at all, NOW. Days two through four were the worst. Like I said before though I'm very careful with this stuff. BTW I'm 5'11" 221 and I think my bf's around 18-19% Only able to use the bio-electrical impedence method-not very accurate IMO. I'm using IBE's not underdosed to me. I really don't understand how anybody could take 200mcg of this stuff and not feel any sides.

    My cycle is looking like this:

    Day 1: 20mcg
    2: 40mcg
    3: 45mcg -Days two through four I had read what the sides were but I guess I didn't expect them to be that strong.
    4: 40mcg
    5: 50mcg
    6: 55mcg
    7: 60mcg
    8: 60mcg
    9: 75mcg
    10: 80mcg
    11: 90mcg (today little shakiness, not bad, so tomorrow I'll do 100mcg, and stay there for the remaining two days.)
    Do you know if it's possible to use T3 with clen and avoid thyroid shutdown? The results would be amazing I'm sure.

    Thanks.
  10. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    My sides aren't bad at all, NOW. Days two through four were the worst.
    Someone here was saying that he gets the worst sides early on and they go away when he goes up. Can't explain that one, but I certainly believe it...

    I really don't understand how anybody could take 200mcg of this stuff and not feel any sides.
    Some people are weird that way. I know a guy who can't smoke half a cigarette without nearly having a seizure...


    Do you know if it's possible to use T3 with clen and avoid thyroid shutdown? The results would be amazing I'm sure.
    No way. IMHO you should never do T3 (TriMax, et cetera) without serious anabolics. I've heard stories of guys who were on cycle and still lost LBM dosing T3. T3 is one hell of a thermogenic, but it doesn't care what it burns :-)

    If you're looking for something other than clen, you might wait until April-ish when Sledge's uncoupler is supposed to come out at designersupps...

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    Someone here was saying that he gets the worst sides early on and they go away when he goes up. Can't explain that one, but I certainly believe it...



    Some people are weird that way. I know a guy who can't smoke half a cigarette without nearly having a seizure...




    No way. IMHO you should never do T3 (TriMax, et cetera) without serious anabolics. I've heard stories of guys who were on cycle and still lost LBM dosing T3. T3 is one hell of a thermogenic, but it doesn't care what it burns :-)

    If you're looking for something other than clen, you might wait until April-ish when Sledge's uncoupler is supposed to come out at designersupps...

    -kwantam
    I have no idea what Sledge's uncoupler is. Do tell....I don't think i'm going to touch T3.

    Thanks for all the info Kwantam
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    No way. IMHO you should never do T3 (TriMax, et cetera) without serious anabolics. I've heard stories of guys who were on cycle and still lost LBM dosing T3. T3 is one hell of a thermogenic, but it doesn't care what it burns :-)
    --------------------------------------------

    What would you say is a serious anabolic to use to save muscle while using t3 ?

    I saw in another thread someone planning to use M1T with it ... is that enough in your opinion ? Maybe d-bol ?

    Yet in another thread that I can't find now , someone said it depends how big you are when you start, and as long as you kept the t3 dose small ( never going above 50 mcgs ) and a short cycle , you'd be fine without any anabolic.

    Hope to hear some feedback ... I ordered some T3 and wanted to try it with clen to drop some stubborn fat that doesn't want to go away this spring.

    I'm 5'6" , 190 at 13 -14% BF right now. I was thinking of starting at 10mcgs and not going above 30mcgs .... bad idea ?
  13. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crotalus
    What would you say is a serious anabolic to use to save muscle while using t3 ?

    I saw in another thread someone planning to use M1T with it ... is that enough in your opinion ? Maybe d-bol ?
    I really don't feel like I have enough experience with it to comment; I was only relaying an anecdote. (Though off the cuff I'd have to say that at the right doses it's very likely that M1T would be enough; dbol, well, it's dbol...)

    Yet in another thread that I can't find now , someone said it depends how big you are when you start, and as long as you kept the t3 dose small ( never going above 50 mcgs ) and a short cycle , you'd be fine without any anabolic.

    Hope to hear some feedback ... I ordered some T3 and wanted to try it with clen to drop some stubborn fat that doesn't want to go away this spring.

    I'm 5'6" , 190 at 13 -14% BF right now. I was thinking of starting at 10mcgs and not going above 30mcgs .... bad idea ?
    I think at 13-14%bf you're going to see catabolism with T3. It's probably safe up at like 20% or higher, because your body doesn't like to be that high anyway and it's easy for most guys to lose fat at that bf% (girls are, of course, on a completely different scale!).

    On the other hand, I've had very good results at 13% with clen on CKD.

    From what I hear, clen works best on low-carb diets. I've only done it with a low carb diet, so I only have experience low-carb, but one of the mods over at c-k-d.com whom I respect highly holds the opinion that restricting carbs with clen gives the best results.

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    I really don't understand how anybody could take 200mcg of this stuff and not feel any sides.
    I'm one of those people that takes that dosage. On cycles I usually start off with 150-200mcgs with out feeling out of sorts. Ive done a few cycle before, so I knew I can handle it from the start. Ive seen a lot of advice saying if you know what your limit is, start off near it at the start, so you get the most use out of those 2-3 weeks. I haven't gone past 200mcgs yet, not sure if I will either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    I have no idea what Sledge's uncoupler is. Do tell....
    There's a thread in the Designer Supps forum; check it out. I'm as excited for this to come out as a chihuahua with diarrhea... :P

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakebyte05
    Ive seen a lot of advice saying if you know what your limit is, start off near it at the start
    I don't know, that sounds dangerous. One of the reasons you ramp is because your receptors are downgrading, which means your apparent limit after two weeks on clen is higher than your limit at the beginning.

    Then again, it does make sense to start somewhat higher if you know your tolerance is high. No sense starting at 20 if you don't feel anything until 60.

    -kwantam
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    I don't know, that sounds dangerous. One of the reasons you ramp is because your receptors are downgrading, which means your apparent limit after two weeks on clen is higher than your limit at the beginning.

    Then again, it does make sense to start somewhat higher if you know your tolerance is high. No sense starting at 20 if you don't feel anything until 60.

    -kwantam
    I believe that is the point, to get the full effects before your recepters start downregulating. That way you get the most out of the little time you have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantam
    There's a thread in the Designer Supps forum; check it out. I'm as excited for this to come out as a chihuahua with diarrhea... :P

    -kwantam
    Thanks bro, I read through about half of it and am about to finish it (sounds awesome!!). Update: I'm up to 110mcg. I'm done on tuesday do you think I should start ramping down?
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    On the other hand, I've had very good results at 13% with clen on CKD.

    --------------------------

    Thanks for the response. Yeah, I just got my T3 today and am now real hesitant to use it hearing so much about the muscle wasting poperties of it if not using a strong anabolic. I could try it with the D-bol I have but hate d-bol because I get crippling back aches with it ... I mean like I can stand for 20 minutes and that's it. Last time while on it I barely made it out of WalMart without getting into one of those motorized carts. This time of the year when I'm real active with things would suicide to be on it.

    I never had luck with clen alone so that's why I wanted to try it with the T3. I never tried a CKD diet but now I'm thinking about that with the clen , maybe that was why I didn't have success with it in the past.

    How long did you remain on it ... just until you got down to the BF% you wanted or is this something you follow most of the time now ? I can't imagine remaining on a 5 day a week protien and fat diet for months.

    For whatever reason, this year I can't seem to drop anymore fat and was hoping to get to around 10% this summer.
  20. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea223
    do you think I should start ramping down?
    I think ramping down clen is a waste of the clen. You're going off it because your receptors are downgrading; no reason to keep giving them a dose they won't respond to.

    -kwantam
  21. the triumph of the grill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crotalus
    How long did you remain on it ... just until you got down to the BF% you wanted or is this something you follow most of the time now ? I can't imagine remaining on a 5 day a week protien and fat diet for months.
    I've been on CKD since Jan 2, and I'm planning on running it for another clen cycle or two at least. I'm running a marathon in July, so I'm not planning on bulking until after that anyway. No reason not to take my time and get down to as low a bf% as possible.

    -kwantam
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    kwantum ;

    I appreciate your responses ... I have my T3/clen questions posted a few boards and you've been the only one answering so thanks for your time.

    One more question on the Keto diet since I just read two more articles / diet plans ;

    Apparently there isn't ONE way / ONLY way with this keto approach ? On the C-K-D site , it's clear NO carbs during the week , just protien and fat. The other two I read was a small amout of carbs ( 30 - 50 for a 200lb guys ) were allowed early in the day.

    The term ' kicked out of ketosis' was used quite a bit on the CKD site and wondering what your experiance was . It seems if someone was to have a teaspoon of sugar in their coffee or ate some peas during the week the whole thing was shot in the ass. That was my impression , maybe I'm wrong.

    Have you been doing zero carbs during the week with it or have you been just keeping them real low until the weekend ? In one of you responses to me you mentioned you had good results with clen and LOW carbs ... not NO carbs.

    I want to try one or the other with clen and see what happens. Are you following that CKD plan to the letter each week or made some minor changes to make it work better for yourself ?
  23. the triumph of the grill
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    This is getting off-topic; I'd suggest reading a little more over at c-k-d.com and registering there to ask any further questions just to keep everyone around here happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crotalus
    On the C-K-D site , it's clear NO carbs during the week
    It's not really zero carbs; most people can handle a small amount and stay in keto, but they generally have to be very low-GI. Almost all the carbs I eat (about 30g a day total) come from veggies, which are necessary to keep a healthy relationship with your toilet.

    The term ' kicked out of ketosis' was used quite a bit on the CKD site and wondering what your experiance was . It seems if someone was to have a teaspoon of sugar in their coffee or ate some peas during the week the whole thing was shot in the ass. That was my impression , maybe I'm wrong.
    Oh, well, if you're kicked, depending on what you eat you'll be back in a few hours later. But yeah, it's a no-brainer that you can't eat sugar. It's a diet; sorry...

    Are you following that CKD plan to the letter each week or made some minor changes to make it work better for yourself ?
    CKD is more a style of diet than a specific plan; at best, it's a set of guidelines to help you plan a diet which will help you lose weight. Like I said, I'd suggest reading more about it over at c-k-d.com (most notably, read the stickies in the forum, they're the most helpful part of the whole site), do some searches on the questions you have, and ask if you can't find what you're looking for.

    Everyone else: no more pimping CKD. I promise

    -kwantam
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