The ultimate PCT combo

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    The ultimate PCT combo


    Lets say some one was going to do an as or ph cycle in which the gains would be hard to keep. What would be the best combo and dosages to keep the most gains possible. Assume the cycle is a one month cycle, not a very lengthy as cycle.

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    igf-1
    hcg
    clomid
    Tribulus Terriestris
    Arimidex

    (IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremefighter
    igf-1
    hcg
    clomid
    Tribulus Terriestris
    Arimidex

    (IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)

    I would argue against Arimidex for two reasons. One, why reduce estrogen when you are taking an estrogen antagonist (clomid)? You are already largely blocking its inhibitory effects at the hypothalamous. Estrogen is needed to maintain muscle mass and keep you joint hydrated. Second, the aramotization of testosterone to estrogen maintains healthy GH, IGF-1 and insulin production.
    •   
       

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    i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound

    i would NOT recommend HCG for PCT as its suppressive and best used while still on cycle
    add in a cortisol blunter like lean xtreme or ps and take out the clomid and replace it with nolva (same results, no PMS like attitude)
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    so in summary glenihan---what is the ultimate pct?
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    haha in my opinion its igf-1, nolva, a cortisol blunter (lean xtreme or ps), creatine, and an AI at a low dosage like a-dex .25 mg eod or e3d ... there's probably some other stuff you can add like arganine (sp) and those non hormonal anabolics that are similar to creatine
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    Novla keeps estrogren blocked, what about something to bring test levels back up?
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    nolva, through a negative feedback loop, tells your body its gotta start producing more test

    i don't really know anything about designer's rebound XT but that may have some real use in PCT as well ... although it may be redundant while using nolva
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    glen---dont mean to change the subject, but could you look at my tread entitled " need pic of QV's 75mg anadrol pill" about half way down this page and chime in if you have any input?
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    (lean xtreme or ps)
    sorry, what is "ps"
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    phosphatidyl serine [sp?]. You can buy it in bulk from custom.
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    Nolva
    Creatine
    Trib
    PS

    Sounds like a winning combo to me. I'd probably throw some ZMA in a bed time as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremefighter
    igf-1
    hcg
    clomid
    Tribulus Terriestris
    Arimidex

    (IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)
    You can go into PCT w/ hCG no prob, it's a good way to do it, but like Glen said, it's bad all the way so it should not extend more than 2 weeks into PCT, same as the Arimidex. A steroidal AI like Rebound could be used all the way through, it's a better option than 6-oxo because it's much stronger with no androgenic metabolites and can be used at lower doses that will not adversely affect SHBG. I'd sub Fenugreek for the Trib (it's just stronger), and the Clomid is best up front but finish the last half with Nolva. Nobody would argue with the IGF Also don't forget the creatine and DHEA, or at least a cort inhibitor like 7-OH-DHEA or PS.
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    Im not too keen on an AI post cycle. Your HDL/LDL is already skewed, and to further lower estrogen PC is not a good idea IMO. Dr. D correct me if Im way off base here.
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    Food
    IGF-1
    Rebound
    HCG
    7OH
    Tribulus+Avena sativa
    CEE
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    no no no , not like this, u guys have to post doses, timing, etc etc . come on, evryone start again .
    i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound
    no, a better idea would be to use it close to the end of the cycle, and use only anti estrogens post cycle.
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    my idea of a good post cycle therapy protocol (in general) would have the following:

    week1/week2/week3/week 4
    Nolvadex: /40mg/40mg/20mg/20 mg
    clomid : 50/50/50/50 mg
    Lean Xtreme: 150mg/day for 4 weeks /PS-800 mg per day, taken before cardio/workout.
    creatine- 10 gms per day, 5 before workout and 5 gms after workout.
    ZMA: Recommended dose for 6 weeks
    vit c- 3 gms per day, on an empty stomach.

    i like insulin, so 6 iu insulin twice a day.
    rosiglitazone(avandia) 4 mg twice a day/metformin 850 mg with lunch.

    if u could afford, gh 4 iu per day or igf-1 40 mcg on workout days to go with the slin.

    ofcourse, add HCG to this protocol too .

    variations in training would be like this:

    ) dont train the smaller muscles much, so pretty much stick to pressing movements, ie bench/incline for the chest, chins and deadlifts for the back, squats and stiff leg deads for the hammies, and dips for the triceps, this is enough.

    2)train only 3-4 times a week, each muscle only one per week, but movements should be heavy, but again, for the 4 weeks of pct, keep rep range within 6-10.

    3)After 6 weeks(of pct), emphasise negatives, drop sets for each muscle at the end of the training session for the muscle.. this is in prepration for the next cycle. So that u have increased AR count, insulin sensitivity etc when u cycle again.

    did i cover everything? critique as well as add in your own ideas like this people !
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    Quote Originally Posted by raybravo
    no no no , not like this, u guys have to post doses, timing, etc etc . come on, evryone start again .


    no, a better idea would be to use it close to the end of the cycle, and use only anti estrogens post cycle.
    i disagree, after a few weeks of PCT many people experience estrogen rebound and many have had success running low dose a-dex throughout (like .25mg eod or e3d) to kill off excess estrogen ... jmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by prolangtum
    Im not too keen on an AI post cycle. Your HDL/LDL is already skewed, and to further lower estrogen PC is not a good idea IMO. Dr. D correct me if Im way off base here.
    Well, you never want to just destroy your estrogen level, true. But if you have elevated your estrogen on cycle (which is any cycle with test in it) your FSH output is going to be low. Even once your testicles start producing again, the test will contribute to estrogen levels and should be attenuated until you are normalized. You can recover LH in PCT without an anti-estrogen, but to restore volume and sperm counts, estrogen must be controled.
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    Is it optimal to take all anti-E's before bed? I know that nolva has a 4 day 1/2 life, so does it even matter?
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    Hey D, I think it does matter because SERM's are metabolized in two phases. It's an amine that must be deaminated first with a much shorter half life for the intact drug than it's metabolites. Peak plasma concentrations are reached 5 hours after a dose, so if you take it at bedtime, that's just about right.
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    So DRD.....in summary what is the ideal pct? And could you please give dosages as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
    So DRD.....in summary what is the ideal pct? And could you please give dosages as well
    For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

    *hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
    *Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
    *Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
    *Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
    *IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
    *DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
    *7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
    *Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
    *Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
    *Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)

    Maybe not exactly, but something very close to that. I know most guys PCT for about 4wks but I do it 6-8wks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    i disagree, after a few weeks of PCT many people experience estrogen rebound and many have had success running low dose a-dex throughout (like .25mg eod or e3d) to kill off excess estrogen ... jmo
    An AI like arimidex could cause a problem with recovery. Driving estrogen levels down during post cycle can be an issue as estrogen like or hate it is part of recovery. As mentioned, causing additional cholesterol issues is unwanted.

    I agree with Raybravo's approach. Use the AI in the end of a cycle. Taper off of the nolva to avoid an estrogen rebound issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

    *hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
    *Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
    *Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
    *Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
    *IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
    *DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
    *7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
    *Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
    *Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
    *Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)
    I was waiting for someone to say DHEA. I belive DHEA is invaluable for PCT, as has been spoken of in great dept of late.
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    Nolva: 60/40/40/20/0
    ReboundXT: 0/0/50/25/25
    7-OH PFO: 600mg EW X 5 weeks
    CEE: 5g ED
    DHEA: 100mg ED X 5 weeks
    IGF-1: Don't know much about it. I hear its good tho

    Really the only thing different than everybody elses is that rebound xt starting toward the end of PCT. I always get a gyno flare up the week after I taper off Nolva. I think thats due to the excess estrogen the nolva gives thats still there once I come off it and the estrogen receptors start working again. I think if I use a suicide inhibitor like rebound xt it will kill the excess estrogen I get from the nolva at the end of PCT and prevent the gyno flare up. Any thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bow
    I was waiting for someone to say DHEA. I belive DHEA is invaluable for PCT, as has been spoken of in great dept of late.
    We've started a revolution brother! Just remember to be humble Bow, and don't say 'I told you so' too many times when it really catches on!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait
    Nolva: 60/40/40/20/0
    ReboundXT: 0/0/50/25/25
    7-OH PFO: 600mg EW X 5 weeks
    CEE: 5g ED
    DHEA: 100mg ED X 5 weeks
    IGF-1: Don't know much about it. I hear its good tho

    Really the only thing different than everybody elses is that rebound xt starting toward the end of PCT. I always get a gyno flare up the week after I taper off Nolva. I think thats due to the excess estrogen the nolva gives thats still there once I come off it and the estrogen receptors start working again. I think if I use a suicide inhibitor like rebound xt it will kill the excess estrogen I get from the nolva at the end of PCT and prevent the gyno flare up. Any thoughts?
    That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
    My thoughts exactly
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

    *hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
    *Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
    *Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
    *Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
    *IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
    *DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
    *7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
    *Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
    *Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
    *Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)

    Maybe not exactly, but something very close to that. I know most guys PCT for about 4wks but I do it 6-8wks.
    DHEA morn and noon- should I take an anti-E with it, such as 6-oxo with DHEA to block any e forming and my nolva at night. The ideal times for everything is the only part messing with me right now.
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    I take my whole dose of SERM at night, except with the high dose Clomid load upfront, I'll split into 3 daily doses just to avoid the liver stress, but once I get to 100mg or less all at once at night only. DHEA is suppose to form 5AD and andro but to be honest, I only get androgenic sides. Nothing suggestive of extra estrogen for sure. I get acne, over time notice increased body hair, etc.. Never bloat or gyno or emotional issues. I think it's estrogenic potential is greatly overestimated, but everyone has their own enzyme sytems. You could use a small dose of 6-oxo if you like, but I doubt you truely need it. Robin had a good idea about reserving the steroidal AI for the last few weeks of the PCT cycle when test is high again and estrogen may try to bounce.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?
    No, you are right Ryan, just an absentee effect once it's gone and it's rare given you did a proper ramp down and the length of Nolva's active metabolites even if you didn't ramp right. But a rebound effect can result from non-steroidal AI's like letro and ana after about 3months of excessive dosing.
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    I know this has probably been talked about the DS forum extensively, but can ReboundXT totally take the place of novla. Are they both the same cataogory of compound?
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    Thumbs up


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    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg…..Liver Pro 2 Caps….B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)....................Liver Pro 2 Caps….B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg……..Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liv er Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA).......................Li ver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liv er Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liv er Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ..........CMZ (ZMA)........................L iver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ..........CMZ (ZMA).......................Li ver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. .............CMZ (ZMA)........................L iver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ...........CMZ (ZMA)........................L iver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ..........CMZ (ZMA)........................L iver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ............CMZ (ZMA).......................Li ver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ...........CMZ (ZMA)........................L iver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
    .............................. ..........CMZ (ZMA).......................Li ver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
  36. Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?
    I'm not sure if there is a rebound effect or what causes it, but gyno flares like clockwork whenever I come off Nolva following PCT. Maybe theres an extra sensitivty to estrogenic effects after the receptor were blocked for a month straight. This happens even if I slowly taper down the dose.
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    N4cer has a nice system, look how low he keeps the Clomid all the way through. That would be sweet..
    Last edited by DR.D; 03-22-2005 at 09:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
    I know this has probably been talked about the DS forum extensively, but can ReboundXT totally take the place of novla. Are they both the same cataogory of compound?

    No, ReboudXT is a suicide inhibitor. It reduces the amount of active aramotase and thus the amount of circulating estrogen. Nolva is an estrogen antagonist. It competes at the receptor, fooling the body into believing there is less circulating estrogen present (even though there is not).
    Last edited by Alpha Dog; 03-22-2005 at 01:08 PM.
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    which is the superior pct product? Nolva or Rebound? Could one use both for pct?
  40. Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
    which is the superior pct product? Nolva or Rebound? Could one use both for pct?
    My post on this thread is about using both.
  

  
 

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