The ultimate PCT combo
- 03-17-2005, 01:37 PM
- 03-17-2005, 01:57 PM
03-17-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by extremefighter
I would argue against Arimidex for two reasons. One, why reduce estrogen when you are taking an estrogen antagonist (clomid)? You are already largely blocking its inhibitory effects at the hypothalamous. Estrogen is needed to maintain muscle mass and keep you joint hydrated. Second, the aramotization of testosterone to estrogen maintains healthy GH, IGF-1 and insulin production.
03-17-2005, 03:18 PM
i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound
i would NOT recommend HCG for PCT as its suppressive and best used while still on cycle
add in a cortisol blunter like lean xtreme or ps and take out the clomid and replace it with nolva (same results, no PMS like attitude)
03-17-2005, 03:25 PM
03-17-2005, 03:55 PM
haha in my opinion its igf-1, nolva, a cortisol blunter (lean xtreme or ps), creatine, and an AI at a low dosage like a-dex .25 mg eod or e3d ... there's probably some other stuff you can add like arganine (sp) and those non hormonal anabolics that are similar to creatine
03-17-2005, 03:58 PM
03-17-2005, 04:02 PM
nolva, through a negative feedback loop, tells your body its gotta start producing more test
i don't really know anything about designer's rebound XT but that may have some real use in PCT as well ... although it may be redundant while using nolva
03-17-2005, 04:18 PM
03-17-2005, 04:24 PM
03-17-2005, 04:28 PM
03-17-2005, 08:34 PM
Sounds like a winning combo to me. I'd probably throw some ZMA in a bed time as well.
03-17-2005, 09:20 PM
You can go into PCT w/ hCG no prob, it's a good way to do it, but like Glen said, it's bad all the way so it should not extend more than 2 weeks into PCT, same as the Arimidex. A steroidal AI like Rebound could be used all the way through, it's a better option than 6-oxo because it's much stronger with no androgenic metabolites and can be used at lower doses that will not adversely affect SHBG. I'd sub Fenugreek for the Trib (it's just stronger), and the Clomid is best up front but finish the last half with Nolva. Nobody would argue with the IGF Also don't forget the creatine and DHEA, or at least a cort inhibitor like 7-OH-DHEA or PS.Originally Posted by extremefighter
03-18-2005, 02:52 AM
Im not too keen on an AI post cycle. Your HDL/LDL is already skewed, and to further lower estrogen PC is not a good idea IMO. Dr. D correct me if Im way off base here.
03-18-2005, 06:35 AM
03-18-2005, 10:38 AM
no no no , not like this, u guys have to post doses, timing, etc etc . come on, evryone start again .
no, a better idea would be to use it close to the end of the cycle, and use only anti estrogens post cycle.i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound
03-18-2005, 10:46 AM
my idea of a good post cycle therapy protocol (in general) would have the following:
Nolvadex: /40mg/40mg/20mg/20 mg
clomid : 50/50/50/50 mg
Lean Xtreme: 150mg/day for 4 weeks /PS-800 mg per day, taken before cardio/workout.
creatine- 10 gms per day, 5 before workout and 5 gms after workout.
ZMA: Recommended dose for 6 weeks
vit c- 3 gms per day, on an empty stomach.
i like insulin, so 6 iu insulin twice a day.
rosiglitazone(avandia) 4 mg twice a day/metformin 850 mg with lunch.
if u could afford, gh 4 iu per day or igf-1 40 mcg on workout days to go with the slin.
ofcourse, add HCG to this protocol too .
variations in training would be like this:
) dont train the smaller muscles much, so pretty much stick to pressing movements, ie bench/incline for the chest, chins and deadlifts for the back, squats and stiff leg deads for the hammies, and dips for the triceps, this is enough.
2)train only 3-4 times a week, each muscle only one per week, but movements should be heavy, but again, for the 4 weeks of pct, keep rep range within 6-10.
3)After 6 weeks(of pct), emphasise negatives, drop sets for each muscle at the end of the training session for the muscle.. this is in prepration for the next cycle. So that u have increased AR count, insulin sensitivity etc when u cycle again.
did i cover everything? critique as well as add in your own ideas like this people !
03-18-2005, 10:57 AM
i disagree, after a few weeks of PCT many people experience estrogen rebound and many have had success running low dose a-dex throughout (like .25mg eod or e3d) to kill off excess estrogen ... jmoOriginally Posted by raybravo
03-18-2005, 06:50 PM
Well, you never want to just destroy your estrogen level, true. But if you have elevated your estrogen on cycle (which is any cycle with test in it) your FSH output is going to be low. Even once your testicles start producing again, the test will contribute to estrogen levels and should be attenuated until you are normalized. You can recover LH in PCT without an anti-estrogen, but to restore volume and sperm counts, estrogen must be controled.Originally Posted by prolangtum
03-18-2005, 06:51 PM
Is it optimal to take all anti-E's before bed? I know that nolva has a 4 day 1/2 life, so does it even matter?
03-18-2005, 07:00 PM
Hey D, I think it does matter because SERM's are metabolized in two phases. It's an amine that must be deaminated first with a much shorter half life for the intact drug than it's metabolites. Peak plasma concentrations are reached 5 hours after a dose, so if you take it at bedtime, that's just about right.
03-19-2005, 06:18 PM
03-20-2005, 12:41 AM
For a 6wk PCT, here goes:Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER
*hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
*Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
*Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
*Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
*IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
*DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
*7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
*Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
*Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
*Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)
Maybe not exactly, but something very close to that. I know most guys PCT for about 4wks but I do it 6-8wks.
03-20-2005, 01:02 AM
An AI like arimidex could cause a problem with recovery. Driving estrogen levels down during post cycle can be an issue as estrogen like or hate it is part of recovery. As mentioned, causing additional cholesterol issues is unwanted.Originally Posted by glenihan
I agree with Raybravo's approach. Use the AI in the end of a cycle. Taper off of the nolva to avoid an estrogen rebound issue.
03-20-2005, 01:32 PM
I was waiting for someone to say DHEA. I belive DHEA is invaluable for PCT, as has been spoken of in great dept of late.Originally Posted by DR.D
03-20-2005, 01:45 PM
7-OH PFO: 600mg EW X 5 weeks
CEE: 5g ED
DHEA: 100mg ED X 5 weeks
IGF-1: Don't know much about it. I hear its good tho
Really the only thing different than everybody elses is that rebound xt starting toward the end of PCT. I always get a gyno flare up the week after I taper off Nolva. I think thats due to the excess estrogen the nolva gives thats still there once I come off it and the estrogen receptors start working again. I think if I use a suicide inhibitor like rebound xt it will kill the excess estrogen I get from the nolva at the end of PCT and prevent the gyno flare up. Any thoughts?
03-20-2005, 01:52 PM
We've started a revolution brother! Just remember to be humble Bow, and don't say 'I told you so' too many times when it really catches on!Originally Posted by bow
03-20-2005, 01:59 PM
That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?Originally Posted by RobInKuwait
03-20-2005, 02:11 PM
03-20-2005, 09:38 PM
DHEA morn and noon- should I take an anti-E with it, such as 6-oxo with DHEA to block any e forming and my nolva at night. The ideal times for everything is the only part messing with me right now.Originally Posted by DR.D
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