The ultimate PCT combo

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Lets say some one was going to do an as or ph cycle in which the gains would be hard to keep. What would be the best combo and dosages to keep the most gains possible. Assume the cycle is a one month cycle, not a very lengthy as cycle.
 

extremefighter

New member
Awards
0
igf-1
hcg
clomid
Tribulus Terriestris
Arimidex

(IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)
 
Alpha Dog

Alpha Dog

Obese Member
Awards
1
  • Established
igf-1
hcg
clomid
Tribulus Terriestris
Arimidex

(IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)

I would argue against Arimidex for two reasons. One, why reduce estrogen when you are taking an estrogen antagonist (clomid)? You are already largely blocking its inhibitory effects at the hypothalamous. Estrogen is needed to maintain muscle mass and keep you joint hydrated. Second, the aramotization of testosterone to estrogen maintains healthy GH, IGF-1 and insulin production.
 

glenihan

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound

i would NOT recommend HCG for PCT as its suppressive and best used while still on cycle
add in a cortisol blunter like lean xtreme or ps and take out the clomid and replace it with nolva (same results, no PMS like attitude)
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
so in summary glenihan---what is the ultimate pct?
 

glenihan

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
haha in my opinion its igf-1, nolva, a cortisol blunter (lean xtreme or ps), creatine, and an AI at a low dosage like a-dex .25 mg eod or e3d ... there's probably some other stuff you can add like arganine (sp) and those non hormonal anabolics that are similar to creatine
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Novla keeps estrogren blocked, what about something to bring test levels back up?
 

glenihan

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
nolva, through a negative feedback loop, tells your body its gotta start producing more test

i don't really know anything about designer's rebound XT but that may have some real use in PCT as well ... although it may be redundant while using nolva
 
Beowulf

Beowulf

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
phosphatidyl serine [sp?]. You can buy it in bulk from custom.
 
Gethuge

Gethuge

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Nolva
Creatine
Trib
PS

Sounds like a winning combo to me. I'd probably throw some ZMA in a bed time as well.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
igf-1
hcg
clomid
Tribulus Terriestris
Arimidex

(IGF-1 sould be in anyones PCT)
You can go into PCT w/ hCG no prob, it's a good way to do it, but like Glen said, it's bad all the way so it should not extend more than 2 weeks into PCT, same as the Arimidex. A steroidal AI like Rebound could be used all the way through, it's a better option than 6-oxo because it's much stronger with no androgenic metabolites and can be used at lower doses that will not adversely affect SHBG. I'd sub Fenugreek for the Trib (it's just stronger), and the Clomid is best up front but finish the last half with Nolva. Nobody would argue with the IGF :D Also don't forget the creatine and DHEA, or at least a cort inhibitor like 7-OH-DHEA or PS.
 
prolangtum

prolangtum

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Im not too keen on an AI post cycle. Your HDL/LDL is already skewed, and to further lower estrogen PC is not a good idea IMO. Dr. D correct me if Im way off base here.
 
Syr

Syr

Hot Italian Goldmember
Awards
1
  • Established
Food
IGF-1
Rebound
HCG
7OH
Tribulus+Avena sativa
CEE
 

raybravo

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
no no no , not like this, u guys have to post doses, timing, etc etc :). come on, evryone start again :).
i think having a-dex (or preferably aromasin) at a low does pct is good ... it helps prevent estro rebound
no, a better idea would be to use it close to the end of the cycle, and use only anti estrogens post cycle.
 

raybravo

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
my idea of a good post cycle therapy protocol (in general) would have the following:

week1/week2/week3/week 4
Nolvadex: /40mg/40mg/20mg/20 mg
clomid : 50/50/50/50 mg
Lean Xtreme: 150mg/day for 4 weeks /PS-800 mg per day, taken before cardio/workout.
creatine- 10 gms per day, 5 before workout and 5 gms after workout.
ZMA: Recommended dose for 6 weeks
vit c- 3 gms per day, on an empty stomach.

i like insulin, so 6 iu insulin twice a day.
rosiglitazone(avandia) 4 mg twice a day/metformin 850 mg with lunch.

if u could afford, gh 4 iu per day or igf-1 40 mcg on workout days to go with the slin.

ofcourse, add HCG to this protocol too :).

variations in training would be like this:

) dont train the smaller muscles much, so pretty much stick to pressing movements, ie bench/incline for the chest, chins and deadlifts for the back, squats and stiff leg deads for the hammies, and dips for the triceps, this is enough.

2)train only 3-4 times a week, each muscle only one per week, but movements should be heavy, but again, for the 4 weeks of pct, keep rep range within 6-10.

3)After 6 weeks(of pct), emphasise negatives, drop sets for each muscle at the end of the training session for the muscle.. this is in prepration for the next cycle. So that u have increased AR count, insulin sensitivity etc when u cycle again.

did i cover everything? critique as well as add in your own ideas like this people :) !
 

glenihan

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
no no no , not like this, u guys have to post doses, timing, etc etc :). come on, evryone start again :).


no, a better idea would be to use it close to the end of the cycle, and use only anti estrogens post cycle.
i disagree, after a few weeks of PCT many people experience estrogen rebound and many have had success running low dose a-dex throughout (like .25mg eod or e3d) to kill off excess estrogen ... jmo
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Im not too keen on an AI post cycle. Your HDL/LDL is already skewed, and to further lower estrogen PC is not a good idea IMO. Dr. D correct me if Im way off base here.
Well, you never want to just destroy your estrogen level, true. But if you have elevated your estrogen on cycle (which is any cycle with test in it) your FSH output is going to be low. Even once your testicles start producing again, the test will contribute to estrogen levels and should be attenuated until you are normalized. You can recover LH in PCT without an anti-estrogen, but to restore volume and sperm counts, estrogen must be controled.
 
D_town

D_town

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Is it optimal to take all anti-E's before bed? I know that nolva has a 4 day 1/2 life, so does it even matter?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Hey D, I think it does matter because SERM's are metabolized in two phases. It's an amine that must be deaminated first with a much shorter half life for the intact drug than it's metabolites. Peak plasma concentrations are reached 5 hours after a dose, so if you take it at bedtime, that's just about right.
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
So DRD.....in summary what is the ideal pct? And could you please give dosages as well
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
So DRD.....in summary what is the ideal pct? And could you please give dosages as well
For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

*hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
*Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
*Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
*Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
*IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
*DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
*7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
*Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
*Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
*Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)

Maybe not exactly, but something very close to that. I know most guys PCT for about 4wks but I do it 6-8wks.
 

size

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
i disagree, after a few weeks of PCT many people experience estrogen rebound and many have had success running low dose a-dex throughout (like .25mg eod or e3d) to kill off excess estrogen ... jmo
An AI like arimidex could cause a problem with recovery. Driving estrogen levels down during post cycle can be an issue as estrogen like or hate it is part of recovery. As mentioned, causing additional cholesterol issues is unwanted.

I agree with Raybravo's approach. Use the AI in the end of a cycle. Taper off of the nolva to avoid an estrogen rebound issue.
 
Alpha Dog

Alpha Dog

Obese Member
Awards
1
  • Established
For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

*hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
*Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
*Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
*Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
*IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
*DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
*7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
*Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
*Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
*Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)
I was waiting for someone to say DHEA. I belive DHEA is invaluable for PCT, as has been spoken of in great dept of late.
 
RobInKuwait

RobInKuwait

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Nolva: 60/40/40/20/0
ReboundXT: 0/0/50/25/25
7-OH PFO: 600mg EW X 5 weeks
CEE: 5g ED
DHEA: 100mg ED X 5 weeks
IGF-1: Don't know much about it. I hear its good tho ;)

Really the only thing different than everybody elses is that rebound xt starting toward the end of PCT. I always get a gyno flare up the week after I taper off Nolva. I think thats due to the excess estrogen the nolva gives thats still there once I come off it and the estrogen receptors start working again. I think if I use a suicide inhibitor like rebound xt it will kill the excess estrogen I get from the nolva at the end of PCT and prevent the gyno flare up. Any thoughts?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I was waiting for someone to say DHEA. I belive DHEA is invaluable for PCT, as has been spoken of in great dept of late.
We've started a revolution brother! Just remember to be humble Bow, and don't say 'I told you so' too many times when it really catches on! :p
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Nolva: 60/40/40/20/0
ReboundXT: 0/0/50/25/25
7-OH PFO: 600mg EW X 5 weeks
CEE: 5g ED
DHEA: 100mg ED X 5 weeks
IGF-1: Don't know much about it. I hear its good tho ;)

Really the only thing different than everybody elses is that rebound xt starting toward the end of PCT. I always get a gyno flare up the week after I taper off Nolva. I think thats due to the excess estrogen the nolva gives thats still there once I come off it and the estrogen receptors start working again. I think if I use a suicide inhibitor like rebound xt it will kill the excess estrogen I get from the nolva at the end of PCT and prevent the gyno flare up. Any thoughts?
That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
 
RobInKuwait

RobInKuwait

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
My thoughts exactly ;)
 
D_town

D_town

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
For a 6wk PCT, here goes:

*hCG 1000iu/wk extending 2wk into PCT
*Letro 0.1mg/d extending 10d into PCT
*Rebound could be used at low does all the way (25mg/d)
*Fenugreek(gnd whole seed) @ ~1200mg the first wk, and increasing 600mg/wk untill PCT is over.
*IGF @ 20iu BID all the way
*DHEA 100mg BID (morn and noon)
*7-OH-DHEA 50mg @ 6pm
*Clomid 300mg day1, 150mg day2-3, 100mg day 4-10
*Nolva 60mg day 11-14, 40mg wk3, 20mg wk4, 10mg wk5-6
*Creatine 5g/d (more or less depending on the form)

Maybe not exactly, but something very close to that. I know most guys PCT for about 4wks but I do it 6-8wks.
DHEA morn and noon- should I take an anti-E with it, such as 6-oxo with DHEA to block any e forming and my nolva at night. The ideal times for everything is the only part messing with me right now.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I take my whole dose of SERM at night, except with the high dose Clomid load upfront, I'll split into 3 daily doses just to avoid the liver stress, but once I get to 100mg or less all at once at night only. DHEA is suppose to form 5AD and andro but to be honest, I only get androgenic sides. Nothing suggestive of extra estrogen for sure. I get acne, over time notice increased body hair, etc.. Never bloat or gyno or emotional issues. I think it's estrogenic potential is greatly overestimated, but everyone has their own enzyme sytems. You could use a small dose of 6-oxo if you like, but I doubt you truely need it. Robin had a good idea about reserving the steroidal AI for the last few weeks of the PCT cycle when test is high again and estrogen may try to bounce.
 
ryansm

ryansm

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
That's a great application Rob, like start taking it with your lowest dose of Nolva so it overlaps a bit right at the end of the cycle. Then take it a few weeks more just to be sure. I've been hearing that it rivals Nolva in it's gyno benefits. I've heard about 4 guys so far saying it works better than Nolva and even squashes out long-standing gyno. So I say, why not try it like that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?
No, you are right Ryan, just an absentee effect once it's gone and it's rare given you did a proper ramp down and the length of Nolva's active metabolites even if you didn't ramp right. But a rebound effect can result from non-steroidal AI's like letro and ana after about 3months of excessive dosing.
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I know this has probably been talked about the DS forum extensively, but can ReboundXT totally take the place of novla. Are they both the same cataogory of compound?
 
N4cer

N4cer

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
(PS = phosphatidylserine)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg.....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg..................................B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps....B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg….Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg..................................B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 40mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg….Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg....Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg….Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 30mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 1100mg….Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg.....Liver Pro 2 Caps....B5 5g
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg......Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg.....Liver Pro 2 Caps....B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg…...Liver Pro 2 Caps....B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg…..Liver Pro 2 Caps….B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liver Pro 2 Caps....B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg…..Liver Pro 2 Caps….B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)....................Liver Pro 2 Caps….B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 20mg...CMZ (ZMA)...PS 550mg……..Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA).......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
Clomid 50mg...Nolva 10mg...CMZ (ZMA)......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
........................................CMZ (ZMA)........................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
........................................CMZ (ZMA).......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
...........................................CMZ (ZMA)........................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
.........................................CMZ (ZMA)........................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
........................................CMZ (ZMA)........................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
..........................................CMZ (ZMA).......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
.........................................CMZ (ZMA)........................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
........................................CMZ (ZMA).......................Liver Pro 2 Caps...B5 5g...CEX 2.5g (2x/day)
 
RobInKuwait

RobInKuwait

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rebound effect from estrogen on Nolva?
I'm not sure if there is a rebound effect or what causes it, but gyno flares like clockwork whenever I come off Nolva following PCT. Maybe theres an extra sensitivty to estrogenic effects after the receptor were blocked for a month straight. This happens even if I slowly taper down the dose.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
N4cer has a nice system, look how low he keeps the Clomid all the way through. That would be sweet..
 
Last edited:
Alpha Dog

Alpha Dog

Obese Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I know this has probably been talked about the DS forum extensively, but can ReboundXT totally take the place of novla. Are they both the same cataogory of compound?

No, ReboudXT is a suicide inhibitor. It reduces the amount of active aramotase and thus the amount of circulating estrogen. Nolva is an estrogen antagonist. It competes at the receptor, fooling the body into believing there is less circulating estrogen present (even though there is not).
 
Last edited:

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
which is the superior pct product? Nolva or Rebound? Could one use both for pct?
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
what about this pct...in theory

Nolva 40/20/0/0
ReboundXT 75/50/50/25
Oratropin(IBE) 1 oral syringe ed for 1 month (2 kits)
 
hrdgain81

hrdgain81

Member
Awards
0
that looks pretty good undertaker, but your pct is gonna cost
more then your actual cycle is. I've read a few reviews on
oraptropin and it looks promising, but my bank account would
hate me.

with rebound being a suicide inhibitor, will it drop levels below
what is benificial? Are there potential problems with associated
with this?
 

UNDERTAKER

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
"with rebound being a suicide inhibitor, will it drop levels below
what is benificial? Are there potential problems with associated
with this?"

bump on this, exactly why I post this pct
 
milwood

milwood

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Dr. D and others: If we use something like LX (which is 7OXO-DHEA), would dosing DHEA as well in PCT need to be lowered because of the similarities, or are they 2 totally different things? In other words, if you use DHEA @ 200mg for PCT, then you add 150mg of LX, would you cut the DHEA dose at all or not? Thanks!
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
what about this pct...in theory

Nolva 40/20/0/0
ReboundXT 75/50/50/25
Oratropin(IBE) 1 oral syringe ed for 1 month (2 kits)
I would invert the Rebound with the Nolva, for example:

Nolva...... 40/20/0/0
Rebound.. 25/25/50/75

See what I mean?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
that looks pretty good undertaker, but your pct is gonna cost
more then your actual cycle is. I've read a few reviews on
oraptropin and it looks promising, but my bank account would
hate me.

with rebound being a suicide inhibitor, will it drop levels below
what is benificial? Are there potential problems with associated
with this?
I hear that.. My bank account would just laugh at me!!

And yes, it's bad for estro to be too low for too long, but that's the whole point of PCT. You want it as low as reasonably achievable. Low estrogen is mostly assosiated with cardiovascular probs. Thromboembolism and arteriosclerosis. Eat good fats on PCT!
 
milwood

milwood

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
do you think that for a short cycle (4 weeks) relatively low shut down, and primarily using Rebound as PCT, a small dose of nolva is advisable anyway (say 10-20mg/day for 1-2 weeks?) Thanks.
 

bigred869

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
can any good PCT stuff be bought over-the-counter at a store like GNC or Vitamin world (besides nolva and clomid of course)?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Dr. D and others: If we use something like LX (which is 7OXO-DHEA), would dosing DHEA as well in PCT need to be lowered because of the similarities, or are they 2 totally different things? In other words, if you use DHEA @ 200mg for PCT, then you add 150mg of LX, would you cut the DHEA dose at all or not? Thanks!
I think you could lower it a little. They are different, but until I've experimented more with LX, I'm just basically going to sub mg/mg. So instead of 250mg DHEA, 200mg + 50mgLX or 150mg + 100mg LX. Then fine tune from there, but it's really not that simple, that's just my starting point for testing different ratios.
 
ryansm

ryansm

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
WHat exactly will you be looking for? To figure your ratio. Oh and ygpm.
 

Similar threads


Top