propecia, DHT and weight trainning
- 03-14-2005, 01:01 PM
propecia, DHT and weight trainning
Propecia is a drug used to treat alopecia (baldness). It works by inhibiting the enzyme 5a-reductase which converts testosterone into Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is an inducer of baldness in genetically prone people.
I'm considering using propecia and are concerned about the effects it may have in my workouts. I'm not huge (160) but want to bulk up to about 170 and wonder if the drug will have any negative effects. Does anyone have experience with propecia in regards to their workout routines?
- 03-14-2005, 01:06 PM
03-14-2005, 03:04 PM
I forget but isnt that minoxidil? I've heard if used topically it wont affect your weight training only the site applied to. finisteride taken orally has been known to reduce dht in the body and its strength properties. this has been discussed before try searching.
03-14-2005, 04:14 PM
03-14-2005, 04:45 PM
There is some evidence to support that propecia actually raises free testosterone, which would be a good thing. One thing I have never understood is, if this true, then why do some men report a loss of libido while using it. I know a Doctor, who is in his late 40's, who is also a bodybuilder, that uses propecia. He believes the research indicates it is beneficial for bodybuilding purposes as well as hair loss.
03-15-2005, 11:21 AM
i've done a good bit of research on this topic.Originally Posted by medc
if the reduction in DHT due to finasteride impacts muscularity, it is not a really large amount. i am currently on finasteride (going on 3 weeks) and it has yet to make a noticeable difference in either libido or muscularity...but then again, i'm on-cycle. i have heard numerous reports of guys who experience libido loss while on it for extended periods, however.
for your case - you are very likely so far below your genetic potential at 160lbs that a small difference won't even be noticeable. if you were 100lbs heavier and with a better feel for changes in your body/strength/appearance it might be more of a consideration.
one last bit - virtually every guy with MPB concerns who runs a test-based AAS cycle employs finasteride.
03-15-2005, 07:26 PM
Before i took some time to actually consider the possibility of using finasteride i heard the loss of libido issue many times and i was obvioulsy concerned, but then i found out that it only occurs in 1.8% of the cases which isn't so bad.Originally Posted by MacMan
I haven't done enough research but I think it's safe to assume that libido is influenced by the whole gama of androgens not just testosterone. Also, both DHT and testosterone have different receptors, therefore is not only the amount of free hormone that counts - it's also the amount of available receptors. So a decrease in DHT coupled with a limited number of testosterone receptors might be a reason for the 1.8% loss of libido. But that's just a guess.
there are some links I found
03-16-2005, 08:56 AM
don't believe that 1.8% salesmanship bull****. the companies responsible for bringing the product to market funded or coordinated those "studies" and they do NOT reflect the real-world frequency of libido loss in finasteride users. it is significantly more prevalent.
all i can say about that is - use it, and if it starts to impact your libido unfavorably and more than you are comfortable with, then stop and just stick with AA, nizoral and minox.
03-18-2005, 04:22 AM
basically some of the side effects of finasteride/dutasteride are estrogen-related since the inhibition of the reduction of testosterone to dht leaves more substrate for aromatization end estrogen build-up. If I am not wrong among the probable side effects apart from libido loss and oedema is also gyno (all of these are estrogen-related).
03-18-2005, 06:43 AM
Would orally administered finasteride help deal with prostate related issues as well, since DHT tends to do a number on my prostate?
03-18-2005, 06:54 AM
there is proscar from merck which is overdosed finasteride ( 5 mg/tab) designed for prostata issues
I'd say that you need avodart (dutasteride) for this purpose bc it blocks both subtypes of the reductase, finasteride blocks only one of them as far as I know. Besides the effect on the DHT levels with avodart is rather quick and tremendous and the drug is designed rather for prostata treatment while propecia is basically developed as a hairloss remedy.
03-18-2005, 07:00 AM
Ok, thanks for the good info. Questions on this avodart tho:Originally Posted by boby-at
Would liver toxicity be an issue if I stacked it with a 17aa steroid?
How much would it inhibit my gains if I were on test based cycle?
03-18-2005, 07:13 AM
no idea about the liver toxicity but any medicine even aspirin will be detoxicated in the liver. So there could be a risk - i really dunno..
about the test and the gains:
basically a lot of the gains on the test cycle are estrogen related. If you block the aromatization the gains will diminish. DHT on the other side gives you "the kick", aggression and also acne, prostata growth and baldness but it does not influence the gains directy (although there are people which are on the opposite opinion). A lot of people run test together with an aromatase and reductase inhibitor and claim not to have any sides while gaining good but I never tried this path, and most of these people run insane doses like 1 g per week and even more. Anyway I dunno if the gains will suffer but by switching the DHT off you switch off the main estrogen antagonist in the body and furthermore you will have even more test substrate for aromatization so you should be aware of estrogenic sides like water retention etc.. so may be some adex would be a wise investment
03-18-2005, 09:20 AM
got any documented cases of gyno from finasteride use? i seriously cant imagine that happening, but i could be wrong.Originally Posted by boby-at
i reckon, if the small amount of test that is reduced to DHT via 5-AR is freed up by finasteride, there will be somewhat more test circulating, but the amount that aromatizes is driven by the amount of aromatase present...i just cant see this being a huge factor.
as for this comment: "A lot of people run test together with an aromatase and reductase inhibitor and claim not to have any sides while gaining good but I never tried this path, and most of these people run insane doses like 1 g per week and even more." - that doesnt make a helluva lot of sense. COUNTLESS test-based (e, prop, cyp, etc) cyclers, from 250mg/week up, use AI's on a very regular basis to keep bloat and fat down and still get virtually identical results, once the cycle has completed. without an AI, there will naturally be more water and fat on-cycle, but that subsides during PCT. only a small percentage of juicers go to 1g/week.
03-18-2005, 10:49 AM
"In postmarketing experience, the following adverse events have been reported: breast tenderness and enlargement; hypersensitivity reactions including rash, pruritus, urticaria, and swelling of the lips and face; and testicular pain."
and so on - it stays on the safety sheet too but i dont have any right now to quote.
To the other comments: the US juicers and the EU juicers have different approaches to juicing as far as I could see in the last couple of years so I'll leave this blank - anyone has the freedom of doing the "right" things and this is a quite personal definition.
03-18-2005, 10:56 AM
What is the deal regarding finasteride and body hair? Does it have any kind of effect on reducing/slowing the growth of body hair?
03-18-2005, 11:28 AM
Sledge's NHA has shown to prevent prostate hyperplasia even though it displaces DHT from SHBG. In fact, it acts on both known pathways of hyperplasia, namely DHT activation of AR and consequent increase of PSA and SHBG-RSHBG complex receptor signal transduction via cAMP. The NHA blocks the effects of DHT and E2 stimulating prostate hyperplasia, whereas 5a-reductase inhibitors may block dht but increase aromatization. Then excess E can bind to the RSHBG-SHBG receptor to illict hyperplasia in the prostate. Dutasteride has been known to aggravate gyno likely due to the aromatization of E. Sledge's NHA should not only protect the prostate but since it also binds to SHBG it will increase even if marginally hte effectiveness of a cycle. This product should also prohibit MPB via the same mechanism it blocks DHT AR activation in the prostate.
03-18-2005, 11:35 AM
no idea about the body hair; hiwever i googled a bit and saw that its been used by women - http://www.hormonehelpny.com/column/hirsutism.htm with excessive body hair with success and it doesn't influence this in men - http://www.pjonline.com/Editorial/19...nasteride.htmlMaybe dutasteride could be more effective but I doubt it - otherwise it should be already famous
03-18-2005, 12:02 PM
03-18-2005, 12:04 PM
the more I hear about the nha the more I like it. ersatz you seem to be pretty knowledgable about the nha. do you have some inside info. not asking for any, I can wait, just curious.
03-18-2005, 04:28 PM
word to the wise - never trust "facts" about a product provided by the manufacturer. i requested DOCUMENTED cases. if bitch tits was something experienced commonly, there would likely be very unhappy people who would make it known. although increased estrogen through elevated test aromatizing is likely a non-issue, i can see the point made about DHT as an estrogen antagonist - something it does quite well, so perhaps estrogen sides arent entirely out of the question.Originally Posted by boby-at
i have no idea what this means: "the US juicers and the EU juicers have different approaches to juicing as far as I could see in the last couple of years so I'll leave this blank - anyone has the freedom of doing the "right" things and this is a quite personal definition"....i was not aware that europeans commonly run 1g/week of test. in america, where everything is bigger, even your biggest dudes typically dont go up that high.
03-19-2005, 05:39 AM
i meant the constant use of ancilliaries - ari/letro with 250 mg test en. per week is an overkill for me but whatever; commonly those running 1 g and more use them, the others not (at least if its not needed)
anyway, this was a remark.
"never trust "facts" about a product provided by the manufacturer." i'd rather trust the manufacterer than someone else.
03-20-2005, 12:51 AM
Sledge posted the compound so I merely did some research on pubmed to see if it would be a viable product for me.Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
I would be inclined to trust the manufacturer's info as it has to be based on some clinical trials/studies. While the effects listed may not occur in all users or even a majority, I'm sure it's stated for liability issues.
03-20-2005, 08:55 PM
This is not completely true, Truck. There are quite a few guys in the US who swear by 1g+/week of test. I have talked to a few who think it is not worth going any less.Originally Posted by Truck
03-20-2005, 09:09 PM
WOW this sounds the ideal replacement of my mega-doses of saw palmetto!Originally Posted by ersatz
If all this proves true, Sledge is DA MAN!
03-21-2005, 09:48 AM
precisely why i put the word "typically" in my argument....though there are certainly many that go 1g/week, the vast majority use less.Originally Posted by GoPower
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