PH cycle during or in place of HCG therapy.

[pcav89]

Hey guys,

I am on HCG sub injections 2000iu 3x - week. I have the HCG and Tamoxifen through valid prescription from an Endo so, I am not worried about pct products. I have low testosterone and I was given HCG in an attempt to bring it up because my doctor doesn't want to use anything but HCG and I am not able to switch to another Endo. I have been working out for years and never really been able to put on size and I have my nutrition and my sleep on point, and I do constant research to improve myself and focus very much on training properly and with proper form. Im not thinking that I'm anything special by saying that in fact, I only say that because I want you to know Im not unrealistic and new to bodybuilding or how my endocrine system works and I know that I should have much more muscle mass by now.

I have run a cycle of havoc and did well with it. I gained a small but noticeable amount of lean mass but nothing special and I think the nolva I got back then was no good because pct didn't go well and later on I developed some gyno (small but gyno non the less). I'd like to try Msten by assault labs as a way to put some mass on my frame and of course its marketing make it seem like a great and pretty mild ph. I was wondering if anyone on here has any opinions on this product or suggestions for something better for me as a lot has changed in the line of available products since I last did this. I am looking for dry gains but my real goal here is mass so I know I might have to forget about keeping my body fat down while running a stronger ph.

Lastly, and most importantly, my HCG therapy is ongoing. Should I run the ph cycle and keep my hcg treatment the same but start the nova after the ph cycle? Should I stop HCG and use it after I finish the ph cycle? Instead of asking a million variations of this questions, how should I use the 3 products that I have mentioned? (Ill have cycle support supps of course but I don't need help with how to use those lol). Thanks for any and all help, I seriously appreciate it.

 

[audix2359]

What's your reason for considering adding Novla after you finish your PH cycle?

 

[pcav89]

Gyno being the main concern but I guess because its the norm. Is this unnecessary here?

 

[audix2359]

I don't think you're going to get estrogen conversion from the Msten and if you do you've got the Tamoxifen to combat that. I'll admit that I'm not familiar with HCG therapy but I'm assuming that you're pretty much already shut down - test wise. If you are not, then maybe something to get you going again is needed. But I would imagine that the HCG you are taking has your natural testosterone production shut down, in which case the Msten isn't going shut you down further.

I also see no reason to discontinue the HCG before during or after the Msten; I would continue that as laid out by your physician. So basically just keep doing your HCG therapy and add the Msten and support supps.

 

[pcav89]

Thanks audix2359 -
I actually was pretty much thinking that and it makes sense anyways but I need validation because this sort of thing deserves respect that it often isn't given. Thanks for laying that out clearly and I appreciate you taking the time man.
In case you were wondering or cared to know, I have a defect in my pituitary that is responsible for the lack in LH in my body. My test is naturally shut down so we use HCG to make my body produce it in the more natural way which will not shut down the testes. I actually just had my levels checked and my total Test was at 1450 ndgl which we want to drop down anyways so again Im not worried about being shut down. Theres just not a lot online to go off of with PH or AAS in combination with HCG or TRT so I didn't know what to do with the use of HCG during but the way you said it makes sense. I guess I just admitted to myself for the first time that Im naturally shut down, that sucks lol. Anyways thanks again for the help.

 

[pcav89]

Given my new knowledge that Im not going to worry much about pct or being shutdown and that size is my real goal here, is there a different product that anyone would recommend to me? I have only run a 6 week epistane / havoc before. Some of the PH packs come with the OTC products , would it be beneficial to take those after the cycle even though Im on HCG or should I literally just buy the PH (M-sten) solo and be done. Sorry to ask so many questions, it just seems to good to be true that I can just buy a PH and run it and carry on like I never did it. If so , Ill shut up and be grateful haha.

The only other product that I have on my mind right now is H-STane, dynamic formulas.

 

[dusty44]

As stated before, you are probably already shut down anyway, so it seems like it could be a waste of time and money. I think most people on TRT/HRT take the ph/ds, and after cessation return to their normal hrt routine - but hcg may be completely different. I'd just be carefull with your blood testing with the doc unless u know he/she is cool with it. Some will go flat out crazy if they find out you are using anything that could alter your hormone levels outside of what you're already being treated with.

 

[pcav89]

this is true, thanks. HCG therapy, at least in my case is the same as regular TRT and I can even choose to start that but I am going to give it a few more months as HCG is offering me some positive benefits that Test alone will not. I believe it won't be a problem since we are at a point where I will not be doing any further blood work for a little while and it will coincide with a decrease in HCG dosage which will cover that up?

 

[audix2359]

Hey pcav, that definitely sucks about your pituitary but it's also very good that you've found something that you can do to counteract this. By the sounds of your bloodwork, the HCG therapy is definitely working.

I'm a TRT guy myself and I also add a little bit extra or another compound from time to time. The beauty of TRT is that when I'm done, I just go back to doing what I was doing - no PCT needed. It does sound to good to be true but that's how it works. That's why the pro's cruise - they don't PCT because they never really come off.

As far as manipulating the doctor's recommended HCG dosage, I would not do that at all. I assume that when your doc runs blood work, they are looking at all of the normal markers like LH, FSH, total Test, free Test, hemocrit, hemoglobin, lipids, liver values, etc. Nothing you have mentioned taking is going to show up as testosterone so it's not going to matter there. You liver values will likely take a hit, how much depends on the individual. Using something like TUDCA will help with that. If your doc looks at lipids, you're going to have some explaining to do. Any oral PH you take will jack your lipids - there's just no way around this. It's temporary but if run Msten for 4-5 weeks and have to do blood work within 2-3 weeks after you are off, your lipids will be skewed. How quickly they return to baseline is an individual thing - maybe 4 weeks maybe twice that.

 

[pcav89]

As far as manipulating the doctor's recommended HCG dosage, I would not do that at all.

Good advice however, I just want to make sure I corrector my previous statement as that didn't come out right. I am not manipulating my doctors recommended dosage. What I should have said is that we just did my blood work and my total Test was so much higher than "normal" (just under 1500 ndgl) as with most Endo's or any other Doctor really, He wants me to lower my HCG dosage so that my Test will drop down a little bit to the 700-900 range. This is to avoid future aromatization from the super high test. Thats what I meant by my levels dropping from the cycle of Msten will coincide with the lowering of my HCG dosage. I hope I made that more clear, sometimes I don't know how to get things out right lol.
Anyways, thanks again for the advice and taking the time to help me out man.

 

[pcav89]

I'm hoping that this thread will be of help to anyone else using HCG therapy for low test (hypogonadism). It's not something that is talked about much. I guess because a lot of the men using this are in a state that is somewhat embarrassing to talk about? Whatever the reason is, I hope that some people with experience in this matter will chime in.

 

[pcav89]

I just got some tenderness in my nipples which the doc says is due to my test being too high and aromatizing so I got a bottle of Exemestane - Aromasin 25mg with a refill to take once a day along with my HCG protocol. Should I run that for a month and then run my cycle of Methylstenbelone (Msten) or do you think I should just start my Aromasin now and start my PH cycle in a week as I had planned? Methylstenbelone is a DHT derivative so, it doesn't seem like it'd matter if I started the PH cycle while taking Aromasin along with my regular HCG protocol. Sorry to ask so many questions like this, its just that I am new to doing this stuff as an HCG therapy patient so I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I start anything. If its best that I don't do a cycle right now then I will just wait.

 

[audix2359]

I don't think it's going to matter if you start your Msten now, it's not going to have an effect on the Asin or estrogen. Did your doc tell you what your estradiol levels were? It's one thing to have tender nipples but another to confirm through blood work that it is definitely from elevated estradiol.

Reading your reply about the Asin, your doc recommended 25mg per day - am I reading that right? If so, I'm thinking that's overkill. To make a comparison, I upped my Test Cyp dose a few years ago to 500mg per week. I had bloods done about 1/2 way through a 12-week run and my serum testosterone was 3885 (I'm looking at my results now). My estradiol was 21.8 and I was taking 6mg of Asin per day. This was also not pharma Asin, it was from a research chemical site. I shared that to give you a little context. Had I taken 25 mg of Asin per day I would have had no estrogen in my body at all - not a good thing.

Your body might be converting to estrogen at a higher rate (or maybe more is converted with the HCG therapy), but that's where the number from the blood work would be helpful.

As I mentioned before, I would be cautious using the Msten if your doc is checking your liver values. If he is, definitely use TUDCA with the Msten. Everyone reacts differently, but the TUDCA would help in this area. If the doc is also looking at lipids, I would probably wait until everything is sorted before running the Msten, because it will most definitely wreck your lipids while you are taking it - and it will take a while for them to recover, and there is no way around this part.

 

[pcav89]

Actually the doctor doesn't seem to be interested in anything but my free and total test levels. I actually called my reg doctor about the medication because I too, thought that 25mg is really high and I actually haven't even taken it yet. I was way to worried that my E levels would drop to nothing and I know that is a living hell. When we last checked, my estrodiol levels were just fine he said. I don't know that actual number right now. I actually just called the Endos office and requested that all the previously mentioned blood levels get checked and they said they would fax in a request so I can check everything.

With HCG therapy at least in my experience and especially this doctor, they don't worry about my lipids or anything like that because it doesn't have the same effects as actual Testosterone therapy does. HCG goes straight to the testes and like LH and in short makes the body produce its own testosterone at a more optimal level. In fact, they just let my regular practitioner do my real blood work in my annual exams because I am otherwise very healthy and have no health concerns so I won't be worried about my lipids or anything showing up on a blood test from my endo but I do appreciate the words of caution.

I am going to study Aromasin a little more and definitely not take 25mgs of this stuff. I appreciate you giving me a personal context to go off of because I truly do not know what to take as far as a starting dose of this stuff and my endo doesn't seem to have much to say either. Do you think that I would be safe to start at 12.5 cut it in half and then adjust if needed after my E levels are checked in the next week? Im concerned most with it crashing my levels to quickly so Im wondering if I should take more like 1 1/4 of the pill.

 

[audix2359]

I would definitely chop it up, maybe start out EOD with 12.5 or so. It's a hard call because of the sensitive nipples - you don't want to end up with gyno :-O. At the same time, if your doc is saying your estradiol levels are good then you really should not start to develop gyno. I do think it's probably better to start out with a smaller dose of the Asin and kind of go from there.

If you don't mind, post some results from your Msten run. I'm planning to do a low dose run starting pretty soon too with Ultradrol.

 

[pcav89]

I will actually do a summery of my cycle and I'll be sure to make sure you're kept in the loop when I do. Im going to run a 5 week reg dose cycle of (Stenabol) along with (Ar1macare Pro). Based on dosing and mg per bottle for the price, it seems like a good combo for me to run. Im open to thoughts on that if you have advice against or for either of those products.
I just started feeling closely with my hand up behind my head and I actually have quite a lump under my left nipple and a very small one in the right. Its not really sensitive so much as a little painful. The endo says its not real gyno and that its due to the high testosterone. Looks like I might be putting off my cycle for a few and figuring out a gyno protocol.
The real problem that I have is that I have 25mg coated tabs of Exemestane and its almost impossible for me to cut in half because its tiny , hard, and coated so it sort of crumbles. I read some other sites and usually the Asin dosage is said to be low but I have seen some state that 25mg is what they took and few even 1 person ran it above 36 he said (of course theres not way to validate this).
My doctor doesn't seem to know anything about this drug and my Endo doesn't either. Usually ppl are referring to research chems and such when they say Serm or AI but this is directly from my pharmacy and when I called the pharmacist, I was told that it only comes in 25mg tabs and that they also knew nothing about the drug so Im so confused. When I research gyno reversal protocols, I often see the combination of nolva and low dose Aromasin (Exemestane) which I have both of.
Im going to put my cycle on hold until I have this issue fully figured out as this nipple lump and pain literally just came on quite suddenly. Chances are that my originally low test (and I mean below 100 ndgl) shot up so quickly to 1490 ndgl that it aromatized significantly and is causes some gyno like symptoms. I probably could run my cycle on top of the rest of the stuff but it just seems like too much to be on top of and hard to get it all right. Thanks for sticking around and helping me figure all this out.

 

[pcav89]

So, I have been doing hours and hours of constant research on everything I can find related to Aromasin as well as its correlation to gyno, men, cycling other compounds, hcg use, the list goes on. The problem that I am having is that one person says one thing and someone else says another about the same drug. The other problem is that this is very legit Aromasin from my pharmacy, not a random chem site or gym dealer. The most consistent advice I am finding through people that seem to actually back it up with facts and sources is to run 10mg Nolva daily along with 25mg Aromasin every 2 days and to stop the Nolva use before stopping the Aromasin so as to avoid Estrogen rebound since it does not cause rebound and nova does. I am starting to think that I can start that same protocol and be safe. Even better given that info, I was thinking I could just run Nolva 10 mg ED, 25mg of Aromsin on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday which is the same as my HCG dosing schedule and would make it easy. I feel like that would give results for the gyno symptoms while not crushing estrogen too much as I know that there are many reasons why we want some to still be there. There probably still won't be but, it seems safer than my prescribed dose anyway.
Lastly, it still seems that the Msten won't cause an issue and that I should be able to continue HCG therapy as normal, start taking the Nolva and Aromasin protocol, and in a couple weeks start my Msten cycle and then go right back to my HCG therapy like nothing happened provided my post cycle blood work looks fine. Does this sound safe and acceptable or am I missing something. I know Im overcomplicating things but better safe than sorry.

 

[pcav89]

I found this write up that might help. Please if you're interested in reading it, let me know what you think given that you have actually used this drug yourself. Although, I still can't help but feel like there is a difference between the pharmacy meds and the chem liquids and online forms. Anyways heres the link.
http://www.ironmagresearch.com/forums/showthread.php/18-Exemestane?

It argues that Aromasin should be used at 25mg, so Im just wanting some more anecdotal feedback on the use of Aromasin at 25mg and when and how to dose this since my doctors don't know and online research is conflicting. Not being argumentative with you Audix, just trying to share some info.