Best anti-estrogen for Clomid Only Cycle

[Buffspartan]

Planning on starting a clomid only cycle next week to boost my low T levels. I am aware that clomid acts as a weak estrogen and for that reason a SERM or AI is recommended with it. What would be my best choice for other things to take with Clomid? I was originally planning to take Clomid with Formeron, but now I was thinking of possibly stacking it with Nolva instead. Suggestions on how to go about this? Looking for something that won't completely kill my libido like many OTC AIs seem to do.

 

[pl8tes]

I don't think a clomid only cycle is going to do much... If anything, just run nolva and formeron.

 

[Buffspartan]

I don't think a clomid only cycle is going to do much... If anything, just run nolva and formeron.

You think Nolva is a better serm than clomid?

 

[pl8tes]

I don't know the facts to be honest, but I'm on nolva and it's working. Don't overcomplicate things. If you want to naturally boost your T levels a bit, try DAA or a test booster.

 

[Buffspartan]

Those don't really work for me. I'm on DAA, DHEA and an AI at the moment. Have tried several test boosters to.

 

[hewhoisripped]

SERMS can also upregulate SHBG production, which leads to really high total test levels but not really good free test levels. In other words you may get no benefit at all from them except feeling like ****. They would still boost test production, which would lead to more estrogen, which yes, could mean you need an AI. But really no point in running clomid only as a cycle. Something with AI properties would be better suited, a combo of DAA with a low dose AI could in theory boost test, but not worth it IMO.

 

[Buffspartan]

SERMS can also upregulate SHBG production, which leads to really high total test levels but not really good free test levels. In other words you may get no benefit at all from them except feeling like ****. They would still boost test production, which would lead to more estrogen, which yes, could mean you need an AI. But really no point in running clomid only as a cycle. Something with AI properties would be better suited, a combo of DAA with a low dose AI could in theory boost test, but not worth it IMO.

Well even though my total test is only in the high 300s, my SHBG is actually very low, barely in the low end of the normal range so I definitely wouldn't want to screw that up. I was planning on running like 40-50mg of Clomid for 60 days and Formeron. Like I said though, I'm doing the DAA/OTC AI stack and it's not doing much IMO.

 

[pl8tes]

Well even though my total test is only in the high 300s, my SHBG is actually very low, barely in the low end of the normal range so I definitely wouldn't want to screw that up. I was planning on running like 40-50mg of Clomid for 60 days and Formeron. Like I said though, I'm doing the DAA/OTC AI stack and it's not doing much IMO.

Go to your doc and ask him. I'm at 814ng/dl right now and 2 weeks into pct. You are 22 years old, definitely too low for your age.

 

[Buffspartan]

Go to your doc and ask him. I'm at 814ng/dl right now and 2 weeks into pct. You are 22 years old, definitely too low for your age.

Been trying to deal with docs for over 2-3 years about this issue, I've given up at this point. Highest I've ever tested is 415 and that was 2 years ago. Been to endo multiple times and gen practitioner and they always tell me I'm fine and within the normal range. Already discussed this on other threads. I'm just trying to get advice on helping myself at this point since I know I'm not going to get any medical help.

 

[Peppers]

No need to stack the Nolva & Clomid bro.

Just run the Clomid, you can also use the Formeron.

Gets some labs done before and after to see how we'll this worked for you.

 

[Buffspartan]

No need to stack the Nolva & Clomid bro.

Just run the Clomid, you can also use the Formeron.

Gets some labs done before and after to see how we'll this worked for you.

Sweet! You think my SHBG will be ok cuz that freaked me out a little bit when the other dude said Clomid could **** it up

 

[hewhoisripped]

I'd run the clomid but only to see if you can get your test higher on a more permanent basis, doubtful but worth a shot. Another option is to run osta+form or something to try and get your test <200, and then go see the doc again. 6 weeks on 40mg osta should do the trick. Get yourself tested privately for like $50 beforehand just to make sure and then go see the doc. I don't usually recommend this sort of **** but I hate doctors who are so hard headed that anything 'in range' is fine for them. I've been told that my levels 1ng/dL within range are fine... Retarded.

 

[Peppers]

If I'm not mistaken the Formeron will actually lower it, which should help you out with the libido issues. As we'll as controlling estrogen levels.

I think in your case, it should work nice.
I'm curious to see how it goes for you, keep is updated with the before & after labs if you get them.

 

[pl8tes]

Definitely work the system here. Some docs are stuck up in their ways. Show them evidence that it's not alright. Mention that it's kind of depressing knowing that the average level for your age group is here, and you are here. Bring in papers that show you've tried to research on your own and tell them something needs to be done.

 

[Buffspartan]

I'd run the clomid but only to see if you can get your test higher on a more permanent basis, doubtful but worth a shot. Another option is to run osta+form or something to try and get your test <200, and then go see the doc again. 6 weeks on 40mg osta should do the trick. Get yourself tested privately for like $50 beforehand just to make sure and then go see the doc. I don't usually recommend this sort of **** but I hate doctors who are so hard headed that anything 'in range' is fine for them. I've been told that my levels 1ng/dL within range are fine... Retarded.

What would be the advantage of Osta vs Clomid? And yup, gotta love doctors always doing everything by the book and not catering to the individual. And I was told my vitamin d levels were fine at 31 when the minimum "in range" is 30 lol. Now I'm in the sun everyday, tanning booths in the winter, and taking 6000-8000IU Vitamin D per day and I've managed to bump it up into the 50s. My docs wanna kill me because they say I'm getting too much sun and shouldn't take more than 1000IU vitamin D. I say **** that, if it works, it works.

 

[Buffspartan]

If I'm not mistaken the Formeron will actually lower it, which should help you out with the libido issues. As we'll as controlling estrogen levels.

I think in your case, it should work nice.
I'm curious to see how it goes for you, keep is updated with the before & after labs if you get them.

Well that works for me! That makes me feel a lot better. I'm just kinda clueless on this stuff so I'm just making sure

 

[Buffspartan]

Definitely work the system here. Some docs are stuck up in their ways. Show them evidence that it's not alright. Mention that it's kind of depressing knowing that the average level for your age group is here, and you are here. Bring in papers that show you've tried to research on your own and tell them something needs to be done.

Believe me, I've tried every approach known to man. I'm just done with it

 

[hewhoisripped]

What would be the advantage of Osta vs Clomid? And yup, gotta love doctors always doing everything by the book and not catering to the individual

well osta would supress your natty test in order to get it into the 100-200 range. I don't think it's a good idea to run aas in order to get it to 0 as the doc will probably think it's fishy plus recovery would be harder if he doesn't do something about it. the idea would be to run mildly suppressive stuff to put your test out of range so that the doc does something about it. might also get some gains from the run lol

 

[Buffspartan]

well osta would supress your natty test in order to get it into the 100-200 range. I don't think it's a good idea to run aas in order to get it to 0 as the doc will probably think it's fishy plus recovery would be harder if he doesn't do something about it. the idea would be to run mildly suppressive stuff to put your test out of range so that the doc does something about it. might also get some gains from the run lol

The "soon to be" girlfriend would not like that too much though lol.

 

[hewhoisripped]

The "soon to be" girlfriend would not like that too much though lol.

tadafil my friend. but serms can also mess you up sexually, pretty badly actually. a lot of the positive sexual effects of test come from elevated estrogen levels in the brain, and clomid tricks your brain into thinking you've got 0 estrogen... what would you like to get from a doc? pharma serms? trt? honestly if I had your levels I'd go straight for trt

 

[Buffspartan]

tadafil my friend. but serms can also mess you up sexually, pretty badly actually. a lot of the positive sexual effects of test come from elevated estrogen levels in the brain, and clomid tricks your brain into thinking you've got 0 estrogen... what would you like to get from a doc? pharma serms? trt? honestly if I had your levels I'd go straight for trt

Yeah, I've heard they can have that effect, although my libido levels suck anyways. I was just gonna suck it up and deal with the sides as long as it would result in higher test levels in the long run. I was hoping the formeron could help combat some of those sides from the Clomid. Also, won't libido go back to normal when I come off the clomid anyways? I'm planning on following it with a crazy natty stack that was suggested to me by someone else on here in here indefinitely to keep my test gains up and my libido functioning at peak levels. The stack seriously looks badass to. I'm almost more excited to try that than the clomid tbh.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Yeah, I've heard they can have that effect, although my libido levels suck anyways. I was just gonna suck it up and deal with the sides as long as it would result in higher test levels in the long run. I was hoping the formeron could help combat some of those sides from the Clomid. Also, won't libido go back to normal when I come off the clomid anyways? I'm planning on following it with a crazy natty stack that was suggested to me by someone else on here in here indefinitely to keep my test gains up and my libido functioning at peak levels. The stack seriously looks badass to. I'm almost more excited to try that than the clomid tbh.

yes it would go back to normal but chances are so would your test. also a change from 300 to 450 probably wouldn't make that much of a difference, permanent elevation to 600+ would, but I doubt you can get that without hopping on trt

 

[Buffspartan]

yes it would go back to normal but chances are so would your test. also a change from 300 to 450 probably wouldn't make that much of a difference, permanent elevation to 600+ would, but I doubt you can get that without hopping on trt

Mine is like 390 or something. I'm just trying to avoid TRT as much as I can until I truly need it because I know once I start, I pretty much have to do it my entire life. Not sure if I'm quite ready for that yet.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Mine is like 390 or something. I'm just trying to avoid TRT as much as I can until I truly need it because I know once I start, I pretty much have to do it my entire life. Not sure if I'm quite ready for that yet.

I totally understand. clomid is probably your best bet then, but be prepared for failure. and trt is not necessarily a lifetime thing. what I'd do is run a 12 week trt dose test cycle, see if it's worth it for you, and go from there. you may find that the benefits outweigh the consequences. it's really not as bad as many make it out to be. you even have stuff like test undec which you could pin once a month and feel fine

 

[FitnessLuke]

SERMS can also upregulate SHBG production, which leads to really high total test levels but not really good free test levels. In other words you may get no benefit at all from them except feeling like ****. They would still boost test production, which would lead to more estrogen, which yes, could mean you need an AI. But really no point in running clomid only as a cycle. Something with AI properties would be better suited, a combo of DAA with a low dose AI could in theory boost test, but not worth it IMO.

However, if he added an ai like formeron (proven to lower shgb) maybe a clomid cycle would show a real benefit.

I mean all depends what his goals are. Dont expect steroid gains, but if youre just trying to bring up low t levels without injecting testosterone a serm would be the best way to go.

I seriously think 90% of test boosters are hype...daa may have some benefit, but not more effective than a serm.

 

[Peppers]

I totally understand. clomid is probably your best bet then, but be prepared for failure. and trt is not necessarily a lifetime thing. what I'd do is run a 12 week trt dose test cycle, see if it's worth it for you, and go from there. you may find that the benefits outweigh the consequences. it's really not as bad as many make it out to be. you even have stuff like test undec which you could pin once a month and feel fine

I've been trying to just be patient in this thread but all of your advice is ****ing trash.

Did you know he made another thread of his full situation?

If he starts pinning, there's a good chance he can loose the t levels he has and then be stuck with TRT for life at 22.

Maybe clomid will help, maybe it won't. You don't know how his body will react.
Telling him he's set up for failure, really.

Pinning is setting him up for failure unless he wants to do it for life. 12 week cycle? For what, so he can use clomid to bring his levels back from 0 and pray he gets back to 300.

That's why people end up with ****ing issues.

 

[Buffspartan]

However, if he added an ai like formeron (proven to lower shgb) maybe a clomid cycle would show a real benefit.

I mean all depends what his goals are. Dont expect steroid gains, but if youre just trying to bring up low t levels without injecting testosterone a serm would be the best way to go.

I seriously think 90% of test boosters are hype...daa may have some benefit, but not more effective than a serm.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Not necessarily steroid gains, but a nice increase in test so that I feel better and live a higher quality of life. If I can get my test to hit 800, I'll have reached my goal. Even 650 wouldn't be too bad either, not optimal, but I'd take it. In addition I'd like my physique to reflect the amount of work I've put into it lol. I'm definitely gonna use the Formeron with the Clomid.

 

[Buffspartan]

I totally understand. clomid is probably your best bet then, but be prepared for failure. and trt is not necessarily a lifetime thing. what I'd do is run a 12 week trt dose test cycle, see if it's worth it for you, and go from there. you may find that the benefits outweigh the consequences. it's really not as bad as many make it out to be. you even have stuff like test undec which you could pin once a month and feel fine

I will consider that in the future. I def wanna start out with the the clomid/formeron though and then follow it with a natty stack indefinitely for a while and if all else fails I may consider the trt cycle. But for now I'd like to see if I can improve the situation without the use of AAS

 

[hewhoisripped]

I've been trying to just be patient in this thread but all of your advice is ****ing trash.

Did you know he made another thread of his full situation?

If he starts pinning, there's a good chance he can loose the t levels he has and then be stuck with TRT for life at 22.

Maybe clomid will help, maybe it won't. You don't know how his body will react.
Telling him he's set up for failure, really.

Pinning is setting him up for failure unless he wants to do it for life. 12 week cycle? For what, so he can use clomid to bring his levels back from 0 and pray he gets back to 300.

That's why people end up with ****ing issues.

no I didn't know about his other thread. I simply haven't seen many people get their test from 400 to 600 permanently with a clomid run, unless they were recovering from a cycle or something, but I do agree it's his best bet if trt is not an option. most people recover fine from test, of course he might not, but I doubt it would make his situation that much worse.

 

[FitnessLuke]

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Not necessarily steroid gains, but a nice increase in test so that I feel better and live a higher quality of life. If I can get my test to hit 800, I'll have reached my goal. Even 650 wouldn't be too bad either, not optimal, but I'd take it. In addition I'd like my physique to reflect the amount of work I've put into it lol. I'm definitely gonna use the Formeron with the Clomid.

I say go for then. You dont have anything to loose at this point..
I mean the guy above saying all this advice is trash..

Okay, but at least he has a chance of bringing up natty test. By doing nothing for the problem no recovery from 12 week test cycle is even more possible.

Another option would be gnrh, but that is only an option on the table and I am in no way suggesting it bc dose would have to be perfect.

 

[hewhoisripped]

I say go for then. You dont have anything to loose at this point..
I mean the guy above saying all this advice is trash..

Okay, but at least he has a chance of bringing up natty test. By doing nothing for the problem no recovery from 12 week test cycle is even more possible.

Another option would be gnrh, but that is only an option on the table and I am in no way suggesting it bc dose would have to be perfect.

Just to clarify, I think Peppers was calling just my advice trash, and in any case I have nothing against OP trying clomid nor am I saying it's not a good choice. I'm just throwing options at him and trying to be as realistic as possible as I can about what I think the results might be. I'm obviously no doctor and don't know OP nor his physiology personally so it's just a guess.

I didn't understand what you said about the recovery from a 12 week cycle, but I'm tired as all hell anyways. If OP did decide to give test a try now that I think about it again it'd probably be best for him to do a 4-5 week run of test prop or something, he'd still get shutdown but would probably avoid testicular atrophy to some degree and with the short ester could hop off whenever as well as feel it kick in the next day. Hell he could even run 2 weeks, feel the effects and maybe not even get shutdown much more. Recovery from something like that should be a breeze.
In any case, it does seem like a good idea for him to try clomid first, just gives a good idea of how he would feel on it and whatnot.

I'm not a big fan of trip or other gnrhs, simply because as you said dose needs to be perfect, and since it all comes from china who knows if the purity etc. not to mention there's longer acting versions that even at the same dose could have you basically castrated for months, I wouldn't trust some RC site or their chinese supplier with my castration lol.

@OP would you mind linking the other thread Peppers mentioned where you give some more details on your case? Also, before I forget, if you do go thru with clomid, make sure you get bloodwork done 8 or more weeks after you finish your run to see what's happened in the long run. Even results at the four week mark can be skewed (so get bloods 4 weeks after or even on if you want/have the $ but the real deal is 8+ weeks if you want to evaluate lasting results).

 

[Peppers]

Search "debating my first cycle"

 

[T-Bone]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/251451-debating-my-first.html

 

[T-Bone]

Don't worry, we are all doctors here on the interwebz. Just ask us stuff and we will tell what to take to fix all you medical problems.


*Disclaimer-This is meant to be a joke and fictional.(This is for the idiots that read above and think it's meant to be serious). I was making a point. If you don't get it, than I just feel sorry for you and hope you get the psychological help that you need.

 

[fueledpassion]

Clomid and Formestane of ur choice.

 

[killandgo]

I know you're frustrated with doctors, but I would ask for recommendations from people you know. This is a medical issue at your age and should be treated as such. When talking with doctors, emphasize the health aspects or even fib and say that's is for fertility/want to have kids with your gf. I would tread carefully dealing with stuff that might make your issues worse.

Just emphasize the fertility aspects. Don't bring weightlifting into the discussion at all. Docs could care less if the most exercise you can do is tie your shoes due to low T. And research your condition before your visit. If you can discuss it expertly, the doctor might be more willing to help you. Emphasize the health detriments you have (hypothetically speaking, maybe you fall asleep in class/have trouble concentrating at work, irritable with family or similar issues that provide financial or personal hardships.) Low T could also mean your whole endocrine system is out of whack (thyroid, immune system, etc.) and taking something - that in theory could bring your test up temporarily - might affect other hormonal systems. Because if you have low T, I'd imagine it will be an issue for your entire life and better to take care of it now while you're young. Unfortunately, this is a condition that maybe one in five or ten doctors take seriously. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

 

[FitnessLuke]

Just to clarify, I think Peppers was calling just my advice trash, and in any case I have nothing against OP trying clomid nor am I saying it's not a good choice. I'm just throwing options at him and trying to be as realistic as possible as I can about what I think the results might be. I'm obviously no doctor and don't know OP nor his physiology personally so it's just a guess.

I didn't understand what you said about the recovery from a 12 week cycle, but I'm tired as all hell anyways. If OP did decide to give test a try now that I think about it again it'd probably be best for him to do a 4-5 week run of test prop or something, he'd still get shutdown but would probably avoid testicular atrophy to some degree and with the short ester could hop off whenever as well as feel it kick in the next day. Hell he could even run 2 weeks, feel the effects and maybe not even get shutdown much more. Recovery from something like that should be a breeze.
In any case, it does seem like a good idea for him to try clomid first, just gives a good idea of how he would feel on it and whatnot.

I'm not a big fan of trip or other gnrhs, simply because as you said dose needs to be perfect, and since it all comes from china who knows if the purity etc. not to mention there's longer acting versions that even at the same dose could have you basically castrated for months, I wouldn't trust some RC site or their chinese supplier with my castration lol.

@OP would you mind linking the other thread Peppers mentioned where you give some more details on your case? Also, before I forget, if you do go thru with clomid, make sure you get bloodwork done 8 or more weeks after you finish your run to see what's happened in the long run. Even results at the four week mark can be skewed (so get bloods 4 weeks after or even on if you want/have the $ but the real deal is 8+ weeks if you want to evaluate lasting results).

That last part hit home. Research chemicals in general are sketchy with dosing, but gnrh is above and beyond in terms of safety instability.

 

[T-Bone]

I've been trying to just be patient in this thread but all of your advice is ****ing trash.

Did you know he made another thread of his full situation?

If he starts pinning, there's a good chance he can loose the t levels he has and then be stuck with TRT for life at 22.

Maybe clomid will help, maybe it won't. You don't know how his body will react.
Telling him he's set up for failure, really.

Pinning is setting him up for failure unless he wants to do it for life. 12 week cycle? For what, so he can use clomid to bring his levels back from 0 and pray he gets back to 300.

That's why people end up with ****ing issues.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/general-chat/251710-need-good-alternative.html

 

[Peppers]

Lmao Your probably right.

( if I'm thinking what your getting at )

 

[fueledpassion]

I've been trying to just be patient in this thread but all of your advice is ****ing trash.

Did you know he made another thread of his full situation?

If he starts pinning, there's a good chance he can loose the t levels he has and then be stuck with TRT for life at 22.

Maybe clomid will help, maybe it won't. You don't know how his body will react.
Telling him he's set up for failure, really.

Pinning is setting him up for failure unless he wants to do it for life. 12 week cycle? For what, so he can use clomid to bring his levels back from 0 and pray he gets back to 300.

That's why people end up with ****ing issues.

I'm not challenging u at all on this, but with 1 shot per week @ 140mg of Test C, I never got fully shutdown. I know this because the T took me from 250ish to 750ish but then when I started taking StenZine with the standard TRT from my doc, my T levels dropped to 500ish. I basically lost the little bit of T my nuts were able to muster up on their own, which also told me that the supplemental T wasnt high enough or frequent enough to suppress my own production to a sig degree.

In my case, at one shot per week, I maintained my baseline so long as I didnt take anything else on top. This was without HCG.

 

[reps4jesus]

Don't worry, we are all doctors here on the interwebz. Just ask us stuff and we will tell what to take to fix all you medical problems.

*Disclaimer-This is meant to be a joke and fictional.(This is for the idiots that read above and think it's meant to be serious). I was making a point. If you don't get it, than I just feel sorry for you and hope you get the psychological help that you need.

That disclaimer tho

 

[Buffspartan]

Just gonna try the Clomid (pharma grade) and Formeron though....debating whether to run the clomid for 60 or 90 days. Gonna do 50mg....should I taper the dose down or just stop when I run out? And should I run the formeron for the entire cycle? I know the bottle says not to run it for more than 6 weeks

 

[fueledpassion]

Just gonna try the Clomid (pharma grade) and Formeron though....debating whether to run the clomid for 60 or 90 days. Gonna do 50mg....should I taper the dose down or just stop when I run out? And should I run the formeron for the entire cycle? I know the bottle says not to run it for more than 6 weeks

I'd taper. The idea is to restart ur own production so a weaning protocol might work better than cutting it off cold turkey.

 

[hewhoisripped]

And 50mg for your purposes is a high dose. I'd go with 25mg.

 

[Buffspartan]

And 50mg for your purposes is a high dose. I'd go with 25mg.

Whichever dose I decide on, should I run it over 60 or 90 days? Trying to decide how much to buy. I've personally heard the guys with the most significant success have used 50mg (no more, no less). The ones that use 12.5 or even 25 have gotten test gains modest at best.

 

[Buffspartan]

I'd taper. The idea is to restart ur own production so a weaning protocol might work better than cutting it off cold turkey.

What would be a good taper? Say my max dose is 50mg and I'm using Pharma-grade pills

 

[hewhoisripped]

Whichever dose I decide on, should I run it over 60 or 90 days? Trying to decide how much to buy. I've personally heard the guys with the most significant success have used 50mg (no more, no less). The ones that use 12.5 or even 25 have gotten test gains modest at best.

again, when did they get tested? You can cause desensitization and then your natural test will spike but drop abruptly thereafter.

 

[hewhoisripped]

What would be a good taper? Say my max dose is 50mg and I'm using Pharma-grade pills

Maybe 50/50/50/25/25/12.5

 

[Buffspartan]

again, when did they get tested? You can cause desensitization and then your natural test will spike but drop abruptly thereafter.

would I be better off running 25mg for 90 days as opposed to the 50mg for 60 days? And I think they tested very soon after they stopped, like within days

 

[Buffspartan]

Actually the Brazilian medical study used 25mg for a 6 month period and managed to almost double the test in almost ALL the men under the age of 70 in the study . And even those who were over the age of 70 had a 50% success rate, meaning that Clomid seems to work better if you're younger. Twenty-five milligrams of clomiphene... [Int Braz J Urol. 2012 Jul-Aug] - PubMed - NCBI I think I might actually go for the lower dose for longer...lemme do a little more research though

Another study shows average free testosterone among 173 men going from an average 9.3 pre treatment to 21.8 post treatment for men who dosed 50mg Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for 4 months. There was also a minimum 75% increase in Total test in full responders. Again, the highest percentage of full responders were under the age of 55 International Journal of Impotence Research - Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

It also seems from what I'm reading that most docs that prescribe it for low test are doing 50mg for 3 months or 100mg for 2 months.

Of course the 100mg dose for two months is generally used in cases of complete testosterone shutdown from steroid use