simons cycle appraisal

[simon1972]

hey Guys,

about to start my next cycle and wanted to get all my ancillaries lined up in a row so i dont cause undue sides.

Now, im from Australia where its borderline impossible to get any pct ..BUT.. i managed to get Tamoxifen 20mg tabs x 60, anastrazole (arimidex ) 60 tabs all pharma grade and super dmz 3.0 all gtg.

I will also source LIV52 for on cycle support.
my cycle plan is as follows.

Wk 1-4 , 1xDMZ ED
WK 1-4 Liv52 twice daily
Wk 1-4 , arimidex 0.5mg EOD(at onset of gyno symptoms-until subsided)
WK 4-7 Tamoxifen 20mg ED
WK 8 arimidex 0.5mg EOD to soften Estrogen rebound whilst TE ratio normalises


any feedback greatly welcomed.

 

[simon1972]

hey Guys,

about to start my next cycle and wanted to get all my ancillaries lined up in a row so i dont cause undue sides.

Now, im from Australia where its borderline impossible to get any pct ..BUT.. i managed to get Tamoxifen 20mg tabs x 60, anastrazole (arimidex ) 60 tabs all pharma grade and super dmz 3.0 all gtg.

I will also source LIV52 for on cycle support.
my cycle plan is as follows.

Wk 1-4 , 1xDMZ ED
WK 1-4 Liv52 twice daily
Wk 1-4 , arimidex 0.5mg EOD(at onset of gyno symptoms-until subsided)
WK 4-7 Tamoxifen 20mg ED
WK 8 arimidex 0.5mg EOD to soften Estrogen rebound whilst TE ratio normalises


any feedback greatly welcomed.

Bump

 

[themayor]

Wk 1-4 , 1xDMZ ED
WK 1-4 Liv52 twice daily
Wk 1-4 , arimidex 0.5mg EOD(at onset of gyno symptoms-until subsided)
WK 4-7 Tamoxifen 20mg ED
WK 8 arimidex 0.5mg EOD to soften Estrogen rebound whilst TE ratio normalises

Start the Nolva at week 5, not your last week of the DMZ. I think that is what you meant, but when I see it say week 4, It makes me think your going to use it during the DMZ.

 

[simon1972]

Thanks! Yeah I did mean WK 5 onwards, typo, my bad, besides that, is the rest looking good?

 

[themayor]

Thanks! Yeah I did mean WK 5 onwards, typo, my bad, besides that, is the rest looking good?

The only thing I would change is the Adex to Aromasin, since that would help with any kind of estrogen rebound. Plus many other benefits that come along with Aromasin vs. Adex. I just don't know to many people using Adex in PCT, I just think Aromasin is better in PCT.

Easy way of explaining

When you stop taking Adex--Adex at times will start to let go of the estor, even if you miss a day and your levels are not stable.

However, Aromasin will not let go of estro, it binds and doesn’t let go. And is why it is good to have during PCT--it has other benefits for when your on cycle..

But some people use Adex and are fine, so it depends.

 

[simon1972]

Yeah I tried exemestane, in research form but I have bonafide adex in tabs, so will probably tirate it down as I trust tabs over research chems any day. If I could score exemestane in pill form I,d jump on it in a heartbeat

 

[Looseunitwa]

Don't think you will need Adex while taking sdmz 3. Haven't seen any reported gyno issues esp solo for sdmz3.
Sdmz3 pretty potent PH. Maybe suggest a test base on cycle like stano or trest etc?

 

[simon1972]

The andro1 is a precursor to test for on what I've read so test is not required. How does my cycle look besides that?

 

[Looseunitwa]

Looks fine champ.
Make sure you log it. Very interested. This is a strong oral so be sure listen to your body. Eat big and train big. I reckon at the end of your cycle you will be big!

 

[jbryand101b]

The only thing I would change is the Adex to Aromasin, since that would help with any kind of estrogen rebound. Plus many other benefits that come along with Aromasin vs. Adex. I just don't know to many people using Adex in PCT, I just think Aromasin is better in PCT.

Easy way of explaining

When you stop taking Adex--Adex at times will start to let go of the estor, even if you miss a day and your levels are not stable.

However, Aromasin will not let go of estro, it binds and doesn’t let go. And is why it is good to have during PCT--it has other benefits for when your on cycle..

But some people use Adex and are fine, so it depends.

This is a load of nonsense

 

[simon1972]

This is a load of nonsense

how so?

 

[jbryand101b]

how so?

It's all bro science.
You'll be fine with whatever ai you use.

Some ai's are more potent than others.

Liquid Letro is the best bang for your buck.
.622mg e/o/d controls estrogen nicely.

 

[jbryand101b]

The andro1 is a precursor to test for on what I've read so test is not required. How does my cycle look besides that?

It isn't a precursor to test.

It's a precursor to 1 testosterone, 5a reduced boldenone. Completely different.

If it's the super Dmz from iron mag labs, it contains methyl 1 androstenediol, a potent steroid that can convert into a even more potent version. Methyl 1 testosterone.
It's a stupid product

 

[Zach0075]

It isn't a precursor to test.

It's a precursor to 1 testosterone, 5a reduced boldenone. Completely different.

If it's the super Dmz from iron mag labs, it contains methyl 1 androstenediol, a potent steroid that can convert into a even more potent version. Methyl 1 testosterone.
It's a stupid product

Can you explain why? this is for my own knowledge i was considering this product for a future cycle.

 

[jbryand101b]

Can you explain why? this is for my own knowledge i was considering this product for a future cycle.

There is no point in stacking dimethazine, methyl stenbolone, and methyl 1androdiol besides to make inexperienced newbs think it's "cool"

 

[Zach0075]

Didn't realize it had multiple compounds my back I should have looked at t closer.

 

[simon1972]

There is no point in stacking dimethazine, methyl stenbolone, and methyl 1androdiol besides to make inexperienced newbs think it's "cool"

..and building lots of muscle.

Bro science is knowledge based on unscientific hearsay.. Why it DMZ uncool, besides the liver sides, which is reversible if you manage it.

You mentioned that the mayors post was nonsense...how? Exemestasne is a suicide inhibitor,letro is not, his post checks out and his info is solid.
Exemestasne virtually foolproofs estro rebound, metro need constant dosing. If you are going to rebuke posts can you please offer up evidence and not opinion. A lot of first timers will search and come across a thread such as this, and it should give them the info they seek.

 

[jbryand101b]

..and building lots of muscle.

Bro science is knowledge based on unscientific hearsay.. Why it DMZ uncool, besides the liver sides, which is reversible if you manage it.

You mentioned that the mayors post was nonsense...how? Exemestasne is a suicide inhibitor,letro is not, his post checks out and his info is solid.
Exemestasne virtually foolproofs estro rebound, metro need constant dosing. If you are going to rebuke posts can you please offer up evidence and not opinion. A lot of first timers will search and come across a thread such as this, and it should give them the info they seek.

Post one study to back up estrogen rebound from suicidal vs non suicidal ai's.
You won't find any. It's all bro lore.

What benifit does stacking these three compounds have? You know, scientifically.

You of all people should not post but sit and read. You don't even know what's in the products your using.
Calling 1andro a test base. Get the fuq outta here

 

[simon1972]

Post one study to back up estrogen rebound from suicidal vs non suicidal ai's.
You won't find any. It's all bro lore.

What benifit does stacking these three compounds have? You know, scientifically.

You of all people should not post but sit and read. You don't even know what's in the products your using.
Calling 1andro a test base. Get the fuq outta here

hey buddy- and i use that term loosly- your the one stating a supposed fact so front up with your study that says non suicidal AI's cant cause rebound.-

They can if not tirated down- exemestane resists that ,

as far as stacking three compounds- its a freakin prohormone, 3 compounds will definitely increase mass, its a question of how much, efficacy and risk analysis- there are no scientific papers, thats why i asked for feedback, so i could build up a concensus

you seem to have alot of posts to your name, do you actually spend time in the gym or do you internet desk jocky for a living? judging by your attitude you seem to be a very angry man, and im sorry if ive hurt your internet feelings.



oh...by the way!!

Estrogen rebound: This is one of the Arimidex side effects that are very important to understand. It is a side effect generally unique to both Arimidex as well as Letrozole (Femara). The third major aromatase inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane) does not exhibit Estrogen rebound. This is because Arimidex and Letrozole are what is known as non-suicidal aromatase inhibitors. Aromasein (Exemestane) is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor. A suicidal aromatase inhibitor (such as Aromasin) indicates that once it has bound to the aromatase enzyme (and thereby inhibiting it), the inhibited enzyme remains bound to aromatase permanently, rendering the enzyme inactive forever. The body will eventually manufacture more aromatase enzymes, but the current bound enzymes are bound indefinitely, eliminating any risk for Estrogen rebound.

Non-suicidal aromatase inhibitors such as Arimidex and Letro, however, are only bound to the aromatase enzyme for limited time periods before the aromatase inhibitors unbind either due to natural metabolism, or through competition with other substrates. If a non-suicidal aromatase inhibitor is halted too abruptly, the circulating inhibited aromatase enzymes that have not been metabolized out of the body will then become free again, and begin aromatizing androgens into Estrogens at an often rapid rate. This is why it is advised to slowly halt administration of Arimidex, and/or slowly reduce the dose and/or frequency of the dose when stopping.


[related-items]

[1] “Switching of postmenopausal women with endocrine-responsive early breast cancer to anastrozole after 2 years’ adjuvant tamoxifen: combined results of ABCSG trial 8 and ARNO 95 trial”. Jakesz R, Jonat W, Gnant M, Mittlboeck M, Greil R, Tausch C, Hilfrich J, Kwasny W, Menzel C, Samonigg H, Seifert M, Gademann G, Kaufmann M, Wolfgang J (2005). Lancet 366 (9484): 455–62. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67059-6. PMID 16084253.

[2] Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects. Mauras N; O’Brien KO; Klein KO; Hayes V. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 (ISSN: 0021-972X)

[3] Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men. Bhasin S, Woodhouse L. et al. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 281:E1172-81, 2001

if your still reading- get he fuq outta here yourself!!

 

[jbryand101b]

Well, I can tell you just read the article and not the reference. That's hilarious and sad at the same time

The links to the studies say nothing about estrogen rebound.

Not are they cited in the article. Btw, link to article?

Rebound is a possibility with any type of ai. It doesn't matter if it's suicidal or not.

If one wants to use bro logic, one can say rebound is even more so possible with suicidal (perm binding) ai's as the rebound effect of the body making more aromatase and ultimately more estrogen in an attempt to balance the test to estrogen ratio, will be greater since aromatase is perm deactivated causing a greater imbalances in the test to e ratio,, unlike non aromatizing ai's which bind and un bind with aromatase, preventing a rebound effect in aromatase an estrogen.


The product super dzine contains 3 oral anabolic steroids, not prohormones. Now, pay attention to the next part)
These are
methyl stenbolone ( 2,17a dimethyl 1-testosterone)
Dimethazine ( 2a,17a di methyl dht-azine)
M1a ( 17a methyl 1-androstenediol)

The point of stacking compounds is to create a synergistic effect, thereby needing less total steroid for similar or more desired effect.
One compound brings something to the table the other doesn't.

Now, based of the structural modifications, cause I'm sure you understand what they are, what are the benifits of stacking these compounds?
None. No compound brings something to the table the other doesn't have.

Like I said, all this product does is stack 3 very potent steroids in an attempt to trick unsuspecting newbs as yourself into thinking, "Aw cool, if one of these is awesome, 3 HAS TO BE SUPER AWESOME!) When that is unfortunately not the case.
It is just more
a) expensive,
b) damaging to your health
C) no more gains than using either solo at rec dosage. Esp not the m1a.

There is plenty of scientific literature available on structural modifications of anabolic androgenic hormones, and the impact it makes.

I have a lot of post by my name, you should spend time sifting through and reading them.
You can learn info on androgens that many companies have paid me for.

 

[simon1972]

Rebound is a possibility with any type of ai. It doesn't matter if it's suicidal or not.

If one wants to use bro logic, one can say rebound is even more so possible with suicidal (perm binding) ai's as the rebound effect of the body making more aromatase and ultimately more estrogen in an attempt to balance the test to estrogen ratio, will be greater since aromatase is perm deactivated causing a greater imbalances in the test to e ratio,, unlike non aromatizing ai's which bind and un bind with aromatase, preventing a rebound effect in aromatase an estrogen.

i hope you werent serious with your quote above stating suicidal inhibitors can cause more rebounding estrogen?

Extemestane does bind, yes agreed, however the body will only produce more aromatase enzyme quantities in order to restore natural homoeostasis.

As it takes 2-3 weeks for aromatase inhibitors to be produced naturally- your tests levels should be at a natural (or close) level by then and the aromatase enzyme/testosterone ratio should be in check.

this is common knowledge isnt it?

 

[jbryand101b]

i hope you werent serious with your quote above stating suicidal inhibitors can cause more rebounding estrogen?

Extemestane does bind, yes agreed, however the body will only produce more aromatase enzyme quantities in order to restore natural homoeostasis.

As it takes 2-3 weeks for aromatase inhibitors to be produced naturally- your tests levels should beat a natural (or close) level by then and the aromatase inhibitor ratio should be in check.

this is common knowledge isnt it?

No, you are incorrect. Like I said, read through my post.
This topic has been discussed and put to rest, all the info from sources such as Patrick Arnold can be found in my post somewhere, where I previously did the researching and posting info for another newb who didn't know how to research, or read studies posted in articles.

It's all there for you, I've done the leg work. All you have to do is look it up an read it

You can probably find it easier by Googling my name, and the topic.

I know you are new and want to seem smart and knowledgeable, but that all went out the window when you stated 1andro was a test base.
So why don't you take the time to learn from one of the most knowledgeable members here on the subject?

 

[jbryand101b]

I feel like I'm doing pretty good today, no negging or name calling yet.
:smoker:

 

[jbryand101b]

so far, only this suicidal rebound thing is supported by bro scientist, not anyone with credibility.

What would happen if someone were to take letro or some other sort of AI for a long period of time?

and no, im not planning on doing this.


edit: suppression ~_~

you would have chronic high testosterone and low estrogen. and perhaps some muscle or joint pain (that is a common side effect with women on long term AI). Libido may suffer. i dunno if letro has any unique side effects of its own (beyond just related to AI action) either

i am not sure you will have a large rebound when you stop. i have never seen evidence of that happening in the literature, generally you would just go back to baseline

btw, for some reason the extra testosterone you get from taking an AI or SERM does not seem to cause the anabolic/androgenic action that you would see if the testosterone was elevated by normal means (or by exogenous testosterone). This may mean that estrogen is essential for full testosterone activity in the body

.

Here is some info on the subject from pa

 

[simon1972]

So, your evidence that an AI will not rebound is a quote by Patrick Arnold saying he is NOT SURE if estrogen will rebound.but hasn't seen it in literature.


OK that seems very solid, not sure of your background , you obviously outdate me on this forum by a few years/decades and your post count shows lots of posts so that must be proof of your extensive knowledge.

so how about I just take my AI In case I'm right, and no offence, stop hijacking my thread please. I'm going to titate it and play it safe rather than take your advice and risk it.
Thanks for your concern, ciao.

 

[jbryand101b]

He was referring to a large rebound, and there is no evidence of this happening, and most people will go back to base line. are you not able to read or comprehend conversation as a whole?

All ai's will have a rebound effect it's basic human physiology.

There is more info, that was one of the first threads that I posted that from when I googled my name an topic.
But there were quite a few others.
Negged for not researching thoroughly. Everyone wants to be spoon fed.

You were asking for feedback in Op, I gave it to you, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

 

[simon1972]

He was referring to a large rebound, and there is no evidence of this happening, and most people will go back to base line. are you not able to read or comprehend conversation as a whole?

All ai's will have a rebound effect it's basic human physiology.

There is more info, that was one of the first threads that I posted that from when I googled my name an topic.
But there were quite a few others.
Negged for not researching thoroughly. Everyone wants to be spoon fed.

You were asking for feedback in Op, I gave it to you, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Ouch! You negged me! My internet feelings are really hurt

 

[themayor]

But some people use Adex and are fine, so it depends.

Well like I stated some people are fine with using adex in PCT. That's fine, but I am just stating what I think is better when it comes to an AI for pct.

But again, some people don't respond well to Aromasin and Arimidex works perfectly.

 

[jbryand101b]

Well like I stated some people are fine with using adex in PCT. That's fine, but I am just stating what I think is better when it comes to an AI for pct.

But again, some people don't respond well to Aromasin and Arimidex works perfectly.

Which ever is easier to control estrogen will be best.
Imo that is the one with the most flexible dosing.
I haven't used aromasin, but it seems easier to not destroy your estrogen with than Adex or letro.

I prefer letro cause a little goes a long way. It isn't for the inexperienced.

 

[themayor]

Which ever is easier to control estrogen will be best.
Imo that is the one with the most flexible dosing.
I haven't used aromasin, but it seems easier to not destroy your estrogen with than Adex or letro.

I prefer letro cause a little goes a long way. It isn't for the inexperienced.

In the end your right, whatever you can control your estrogen the best with is best for you!

 

[PinkHeart]

Fellow aussie mate, using the same product as you. At 4 caps a day.

Good strength gains so far and a modest gain in size but nothing amazing. I'm at day 11 I think? Lol

The liver problems are really over exaggerated, from the countless people who use this stuff only a handful end up with serious problems and they are generally susceptible in the first place genetically.

As for PCT I'm going with nolva for 5 weeks, I'm getting blood work drawn in a few days for something unrelated so it will be interesting to see impact on liver values..

 

[PinkHeart]

addressing the previous poster ^ I guess I'm one of the guys who run stupid dosages. I guess I'm under the impression if I'm going to waste my time with this stuff I want to make sure I get the full effect.

You mentioned getting the same effect from 1 compound or a lower dose? Surely a higher dose illicit greater strength and size gains? My knowledge on PH/DS isn't the strongest but I know higher dosages of test equate to more strength and size isn't this the same for PH/DS?

curious

 

[Godstrength]

addressing the previous poster ^ I guess I'm one of the guys who run stupid dosages. I guess I'm under the impression if I'm going to waste my time with this stuff I want to make sure I get the full effect. You mentioned getting the same effect from 1 compound or a lower dose? Surely a higher dose illicit greater strength and size gains? My knowledge on PH/DS isn't the strongest but I know higher dosages of test equate to more strength and size isn't this the same for PH/DS? curious

There is a point of diminishing returns, where sides greatly increase and size/strength gains are minimal. At this point it's just not worth the risk..... Jbry is one of the most knowledgeable members here if not the most when it comes to serms/AIs...... I think his intentions are to help, no need to be hostile.... Thanks

 

[PinkHeart]

Hostile? Not in the slightest. Didn't mention anything about SERMS/aI lol

Genuinely curious about the dosages. And point of finishing returns in regards to super dmz

 

[jbryand101b]

Hostile? Not in the slightest. Didn't mention anything about SERMS/aI lol

Genuinely curious about the dosages. And point of finishing returns in regards to super dmz

You would have to run each compound solo at its popular dosage to understand what I'm saying.

Msten solo at 30mg brings big gains,
Dzine solo at 30-40mg brings big gains
Alpha one solo at 40-60mg brings big gains.

All three compounds are power house compounds.

Can you do it? Sure.

When I was a newb, I ran a stacked product,
20mg sd, 20mg pp, 50mg hd it was called decabolen.
I was fine, no sides except gyno in pct.
Now that I'm older an more knowledge, I would never run all three.
Only maybe 2.

Sd/pp was pretty nice stack.

But again, now that I've ran all three of those compounds solo, I know there is no need to stack them.
Sd solo at 20-30mg is plenty
Pp solo at 30-40 is plenty
Hd solo at 50-75 is plenty

 

[Godstrength]

....

 

[jbryand101b]

Here's the problem.....

1. You are not familiar with any of the 3 compounds in sdmz 3.0, all 3 are stacked together and the doses "fixed" . Since you have no experience with these compounds solo, how would you know which one was causing the sides? There would be no way to know. The only way you would know where the diminishing returns are is by what point your body begins to produce a lot of sides. I hate the ds/ph stacks bc there is no way of adjusting doses accordingly. Your stuck the way the manufacturer has dosed it. Everyone is different and picking one dose for 3 compounds is a bad idea. Use single compound and experiment with the dose. If you want bigger gains, run the dose higher. Then you will know at what point you experience more sides and minimal gains (diminishing returns). Once your familiar with certain compounds then you can try stacking, though I say stacking orals is a bad idea..... A ds like dymethazine solo can easily net huge gains solo at high doses. All 3 ds in this sdmz are similar as already discussed, so no point in stacking all 3 together. Here's why I say stacking orals is not the best idea....

2. Though you say it's not that toxic, phs elevate liver enzymes..... You may not "feel" it or notice anything. Also it can elevate blood pressure and produce havoc on your lipid profile.... Again these are all things you may not necessarily "feel" or notice because they are going on inside the body..... Definitely a lot more to messing with hormones than just popping some capsules. The only way to know what's actually going on is to be medically measured.

3. More is not better

That's a good well spoken response that I wouldn't have the patience any more to type out, esp not on my phone.

 

[PinkHeart]

Haha likewise.


Alright I see wha you guys mean, thanks for clarifying godstrength. Might run DMZ solo later on the year so I can also asses myself.

I generally make educated guesses in regards to these new products that I haven't tried yet by reading about the compounds, other peoples experiences and knowing my body. For example I monitor my BP daily and the highest recording I have had on this cycle is 130, my normal BP is 120-130 anyway so not a signficant impact.


Always learning however, thanks guys..

 

[simon1972]

Fellow aussie mate, using the same product as you. At 4 caps a day.

Good strength gains so far and a modest gain in size but nothing amazing. I'm at day 11 I think? Lol

The liver problems are really over exaggerated, from the countless people who use this stuff only a handful end up with serious problems and they are generally susceptible in the first place genetically.

As for PCT I'm going with nolva for 5 weeks, I'm getting blood work drawn in a few days for something unrelated so it will be interesting to see impact on liver values..

Gee mate, I'm only planning on two a day, reckon you should take it back a peg and play it safe. Reccomendations say 2 is max. How much weight have you put on?

 

[PinkHeart]

Gee mate, I'm only planning on two a day, reckon you should take it back a peg and play it safe. Reccomendations say 2 is max. How much weight have you put on?

I'm ok, no real sides apart from pumps, started some taurine, bananas and magnesium so all good. (Highly recommend btw)

About 10lbs and I'm ending second week. Jeez time flys.
Weight doesn't say much especially being a bigger guy, but I have seen a hardening effect, strength gains and such.

IMO good product, eager to see what the comig weeks will bring.

GL man

 

[hewhoisripped]

Wow sorry for all the fighting OP.

I personally am a fan of exemstane (aromasin) as well. Not only because of the rebound thing, but also the fact that it's much easier on the lipids than letro say.

Also like clomid more than nolva, but that's just personal preference, and if you've got pharma grade stuff I'd stick with what you have, I'm sure it'll work just fine.

Your cycle looks good, but I'd look into some TUDCA instead of Liv52, Antaeus makes an excellent product called Aegis, by far the best liver support on the market, it includes both TUDCA and NAC, which are arguably the two best liver supports out there.

 

[themayor]

Wow sorry for all the fighting OP.

I personally am a fan of exemstane (aromasin) as well. Not only because of the rebound thing, but also the fact that it's much easier on the lipids than letro say.

Also like clomid more than nolva, but that's just personal preference, and if you've got pharma grade stuff I'd stick with what you have, I'm sure it'll work just fine.

Your cycle looks good, but I'd look into some TUDCA instead of Liv52, Antaeus makes an excellent product called Aegis, by far the best liver support on the market, it includes both TUDCA and NAC, which are arguably the two best liver supports out there.

Yea, I agree, and if Aegis is out of stock, which sometimes it can be would you ever suggest Damage Control? I know it's not dosed the same so just wondering, since it has both NAC and TUDCA.
Thanks

 

[hewhoisripped]

Yea, I agree, and if Aegis is out of stock, which sometimes it can be would you ever suggest Damage Control? I know it's not dosed the same so just wondering, since it has both NAC and TUDCA.
Thanks

Well I believe Aegis is a better product, you can rest assured that Antaeus is using top notch high purity raws and is cutting no corners. If you look at the prices, you're getting almost twice the TUDCA/dollar with Aegis (if my math is working right, ~400mg/$ vs ~200mg/$), and arguably TUDCA is the most important ingredient in the mix. Aegis is in stock right now at nutra. Damage Control does come with some other support ingredients, but I believe you'd be better off stacking Aegis with Talos 2.0 and Achilles for one sick support stack that covers all your bases and is specifically formulated to work in unison.