This is why the ban happened

[nas7]

Well i ran into an old buddy of mine in the gym, and we started talking about lifting since he couldnt believe how much bigger i have gotten in a year. He starts telling me that he decided to get into shape too, and has been lifting for about 5 months (he is about 160lbs now), he starts telling me he takes whey, creatine and tosses "M1T" in there . He barely knew what creatine was! I asked him how much he took, etc... He finished the whole bottle in under a month, no liver supports, no PCT (!!!) and forget about blood work. He also drinks on weekends. Now this kid is no dumbass, but he simply treated m1t as just another "supplement" because it was advertised in such mild safe fashion. I educated him as much as i could, but it seems like people want to get "huge" with as little effort as possible.

 

[mass_builder]

he will learn his lesson, when his sex drive is gone with the wind, and testosterone level is -15.

 

[zed]

this is such a common story. i try to tell anyone who i talk about supplements with the importance research and sites like this. most people figure how dangerous could something be if you can buy it at the health food store. first time i tried 1-test cause the guy at the store told me it was the new great supplement. i didnt understand why my girlfriend no longer seemed hot to me... fortunately i became informed and adjusted my sporadic/ reckless usage. It's really the immediate gratification most people want but dont realize without a commited lifestyle it will pump you up but drop you like a potato.

 

[lozgod]

I don't blame your friend, I blame the supplement comapnies that aren't responsible enough to put warnings on there labels. Some were responsible enough to have them and that is/was commendable.

 

[punta]

this is such a common story

This is so true, I blame the user. The user should be smart enough to do his/her research on the supp.

 

[Foster]

How can you blame the user? On any PH bottle ever does it say anything about PCT? If the instructions on the bottles aren't to be trusted I don't think you can really blame that on the consumer.

 

[ManBeast]

... You can blame the user for NOT doing research on ANYTHING they are putting into their body, be it a mild herbal suppliment like milk thistle or a powerful steroid like halotestin or methyl 1-t.

ManBeast

 

[ryansm]

I agree with MB, ppl need to take more responsibilty for what they do.

 

[ChemicalD]

... You can blame the user for NOT doing research on ANYTHING they are putting into their body, be it a mild herbal suppliment like milk thistle or a powerful steroid like halotestin or methyl 1-t.

ManBeast

AMEN BROTHER! I WILL STAND BY YOU AND FIGHT ALL WHO OPPOSE PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY!!!

 

[BOHICA]

back when creatine first came you, did everyone research it like crazy? Or did people just take it like the instructions said. I know I just took it like the instructions said. I blame the companies for trying to make a quick buck and not properly label the bottles. Please research Post-Cycle Therapy before use of this product. Not that hard to put on a bottle.

 

[ChemicalD]

back when creatine first came you, did everyone research it like crazy? Or did people just take it like the instructions said. I know I just took it like the instructions said. I blame the companies for trying to make a quick buck and not properly label the bottles. Please research Post-Cycle Therapy before use of this product. Not that hard to put on a bottle.

I completely understand your point.
The conclusion is, that prohormones (or whatever you prefer to call them) were banned because of a lack of personal responsiblity.
Whether it was adults not educating their children, supplement companies not adequately labeling their products, of simply the 'undereducated" not doing their homework, we have the same outcome:
The government has lost faith in people being able to make educated decisions for themselves, and so they eliminated the whole scenario.
No decision to be made --> no outcome to be had --> thus no one to 'blame' for an undesired outcome.

Believe it will not end with prohormones, it will end when people decide to start taking responsibility for their own decisions.

 

[joshingyou]

The manufactures also have to have some accountability in this. A lot of people think "naturally occurring" equals benign and good for you. If its sold OTC in stores it has to be safe! Plus factor in how people take supplements with the mindset that if it works, great, if it doesn't no harm done.

I believe that claims on natural supplements should investigated, not just given an "FDA we'll look the other way notice" on every bottle.

I wish we could just have a medical acceptance - just go to a dr and get scripts and tests. This would be ideal solution for everyone.

On another note, are any of these manufactures getting legal action brought upon them for Ph/ps?

 

[lifted]

I blame it on both. But the manufacturer's here are MORE to blame IMHO.

 

[lifted]

The manufactures also have to have some accountability in this. A lot of people think "naturally occurring" equals benign and good for you. If its sold OTC in stores it has to be safe! Plus factor in how people take supplements with the mindset that if it works, great, if it doesn't no harm done.

I believe that claims on natural supplements should investigated, not just given an "FDA we'll look the other way notice" on every bottle.

I wish we could just have a medical acceptance - just go to a dr and get scripts and tests. This would be ideal solution for everyone.

On another note, are any of these manufactures getting legal action brought upon them for Ph/ps?

Well I definatley don't agree that the FDA should be allowed to regulate the supp market. If that was the case (and it still might be in the near future) then we will have to get scripts just to take vitamins, and say goodbye to HALF of the other supps that we use. Creatine IMO will be one of them as well.

 

[Chippewa]

I can see both sides here. Frankly, the many bottles of M1T I've bought say NOTHING on ANY of them about liver damage whatsoever. They carelessly omit any mention of what is perhaps the most significant cautionary. The liberal in me is outraged that corporate responsibility has been near-zero on this issue, excepting a bit of reading on their web pages (and even THAT comes from their forums, where users--not company names--bring up the liver issue). The "personal responsibility" advocate in me also understands that anyone who dump chemicals in their bodies without doing some basic learning is a fool, and I'm so conservative on that point I'll even include recreational drug abusers, alcoholics, and homeopathy customers.

 

[anonymousness]

When I was honest with myself I wasn't against the ban. It certainly sucks for those who use responsibly but I'm sure the VAST majority don't put the amount of research in they need to. I mean how many people do you expect are going to do the research to obtain a prescription PCT drug for something they can buy at GNC?

Additionally, I read the other day that something like 2% of 8th graders surveyed had used steroids in 1994. How much do you think this number increased when you could get M1T @ GNC in 2004? Don't get me wrong, I think all the media "save the children" articles are crap, but this is still scary. I'm all for personal responsibility but are you really willing to say to an 8th grader that they're just going to live with some probably truly awful consequences for the rest of their life because they polished off 12 bottles of M1T in 4 months?

 

[chasec]

i have little sympathy for the user of a product who inputs a substance into his body without being aware of its mechanisms of action, and the potential effects of use/abuse.

 

[Beelzebub]

I agree with MB, ppl need to take more responsibilty for what they do.

damn right. it's the person's fault who chooses to take a substance without knowing wtf it is. IMO, it's not the company's responsibility to watch out for every fucking dumbass who doesn't have any self-responsibility or accountability for their own actions.

 

[Beelzebub]

How can you blame the user? On any PH bottle ever does it say anything about PCT? If the instructions on the bottles aren't to be trusted I don't think you can really blame that on the consumer.

so, where is the line drawn between personal responsibility and company reponsibility? is mcdonalds to blame for not labeling their big-mac's "this may make you a fat ass"?

 

[MarcusG]

Steroids are not innocuous cough drops. By not describing their products as such and using language such as 'test booster' feed the myth of harmless suppliments. Also a minor would not be expected to keep his hands of steroids and phs on his own.

 

[KCPreki11]

so, where is the line drawn between personal responsibility and company reponsibility? is mcdonalds to blame for not labeling their big-mac's "this may make you a fat ass"?

Big-Mac's to PH's is apples to oranges.

 

[BLANE]

not to hijack this thread but if that is nas7's girl in his pic he is a lucky dude......talk about bouncing a quarter off that thing, i could probably sit down and have a nice fish dinner on that BEHIND! oh yea and i also agree about the lack of info on prohormone bottles, its hard to beleive that prolly half of the bros that used ph's prolly did no pct whatsoever. thats why i am thankful for boards like this.

 

[KCPreki11]

Also a minor would not be expected to keep his hands off steroids and phs on his own.

Why not?

 

[Nullifidian]

All the manufacturers should do is describe what is in their product. If they would just call a spade a spade it would be fine, but they didn't. They flat out lied about what it was they were selling. They called M1T a "prohormone" or in some cases they actually had the nerve to call it a "natural test booster." Yes there needs to be personal responsibility, but what happens when the consumer does a search on M1T looking for information about what it does and gets linked to a website that looks very convincingly like it contains valid information, like bodybuilding.com for example, and there they are told M1T has no side effects whatsoever? I know of literally hundreds of websites that claimed that about M1T.

You can't immediately expect every consumer to be an expert on being able to spot bullshit when they see it. You can expect them to read the label though. The truth is, many of the companies in the supplement industry are nothing more than snake oil merchants. It is an industry more full of con artists and scum than even the used car business.


How would you like it if you went to purchase a floor cleaner and on the bottle of floor cleaner it says specifically that you can use it in enclosed spaces and that it gives off no harmful fumes. Then you go home and use it and it gives off chlorine gas or some other toxic foulness and causes you some very serious medical problems. Don't you see something wrong with that? It would be ok if on the bottle it at least warned of the fumes, but in this case it actually went so far as to explicitly deny their existance. That, my friends, is called criminal fraud. It is something many companies in the supplement industry has somehow managed to get away with for years.

 

[anonymousness]

Why not?

Depends on the age, but for a 17 year old or especially 20 year old to not take personal responsibility is stupid.

Good post, Nullifidian.

 

[lifted]

Yeah, apples and oranges beezlebub. Like anything else, if a product isn't telling you what exactly it's negative effects are/could be, then that is the manufacturer's fault.

Take these drug commercials for example. Why do you think they always state possible side-effects and such for them?? Because it's irresponsible if they don't and that alone by itself is cause for a lawsuit, backlash, etc.

I could go on and on by giving examples, but the main point here is that these compounds are dangerous. And they the manufacturers are obligated to tell the consumers this. I don't understand how one cannot see this.

To the guys saying it's the consumers fault....what if you never had access to the internet? What happens if you get jaundice from taking M-1T...I'd bet the farm that you'd be looking at ways to sue for your misfortune, w/o a doubt.

 

[Nullifidian]

Yeah, apples and oranges beezlebub. Like anything else, if a product isn't telling you what exactly it's negative effects are/could be, then that is the manufacturer's fault.

Take these drug commercials for example. Why do you think they always state possible side-effects and such for them?? Because it's irresponsible if they don't and that alone by itself is cause for a lawsuit, backlash, etc.

I could go on and on by giving examples, but the main point here is that these compounds are dangerous. And they the manufacturers are obligated to tell the consumers this. I don't understand how one cannot see this.

To the guys saying it's the consumers fault....what if you never had access to the internet? What happens if you get jaundice from taking M-1T...I'd bet the farm that you'd be looking at ways to sue for your misfortune, w/o a doubt.

Another excellent point. I know a guy at my gym who don't have internet access who took M1T. When I tried to tell him how bad it was he told me that he made sure it was safe by asking the guy at GNC about it. He said the guy at GNC told him it was a natural test booster and has none of the side effects that steroids do. I'm sure the guy at GNC was told to say that by his boss, and his boss was told to instruct his employees to say that by the manufacturers.

 

[lifted]

I'm just glad that we all have these boards/info to research with. If it wasn't for places like this, then we'd all be up the creek w/o a paddle.

Just because we're the fortunate ones doesn't mean that we HAVE to shun the uninformed. If it wasn't for the companies selling products w/o warnings, this would all be a moot point and we would still have them on the shelves IMO. Let's be real, steroids are dangerous. They have side-effects. They can be lessened with proper research and precautions, btu that doesn't mean that they still can't cause serious problems.

Being able to buy steroids like we were was indeed a perk to us in regards to legality, etc. But again, these are just loophole compounds....if it wasn't for these loopholes, then we'd never have them in the first place.

 

[Iron Warrior]

I agree with MB because this is something you're putting in your body so you gotta research it IMO. You don't research stuff like toilet paper because you don't consume, but anytime you buy a product for consumption you gotta know what you're doing

 

[EEmain]

I was in a discount supp store and saw the man I used to ask questions hand someone Trib for PCT from M1T..
My first cycle was on his advice. MethlyX and 4ad (25 days) with no PCT and then I found this place and will never go back there..
By the way this guy is very built and does know some stuff, just not the right stuff I guess...

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Most M1T products suggest you consult with your physician before you begin any diet or training regimine.
how many people do that?
probably 1 in 100,000

on there for liability purposes of course

 

[Newb017]

it all falls on the shoulders of the consumer, it's your BODY, shoot i researched as much as I could be taking creatine, when you get into hormones the responsibility falls completely on the consumers shoulders to research, how can you just take something without even knowing what it is? what it does? how it works? not only will you probably not be able to use it effectively and efficiently, but you could run into problems as is the case with ph's, shoot my prolab creatine said to load, we all know is pointless but it says it on the bottle

when it comes to your body anything you do to it is on your shoulders, i couldn't imagine being ignorant enough to just go popping pills without knowing exactly what I'm taking and what's going on in my body

 

[milwood]

supp producers SHOULD have a desire to be informative and honest to consumers (i.e. those who are giving them their livelihood) regarding safety issues. I believe that to be a matter of ethics, and certainly everyone may not agree. The creators/producers/distributors we see around here seem to be of that general ilk.
Consumers, as well, have a responsibility to know what is going in their bodies. So it seems to me that both have some responsibility. That's about as wishy-washy a take as I could muster...

 

[jmh80]

My point about PH's and every other supp out there will always be make sure you know what you are taking, from what company, and if there is anything else you need to take with it. I believe it is the consumer's responsibility, esp w/ supps, to be the regulator. Do not rely on the company selling it - you can always assume they will tell you wrong unless you see mouting evidence they are correct. My example for that would be, say, Gespari. He has this product called Novadex. I've never read the bottle, nor have I read any of his PH bottles, but I would venture to say that Rich recommended this Nova crap for PCT of his PH's. (Maybe someone can confirm mention of PCT on a Gespari bottle or this Nova stuff.)

So, I guess those of you for it being the companies responsibility would say Gepari is ok, in the clear - even though we know this Nova is not tamoxifen nor ever will be. But I say if the consumer had done his research before buying, say, M1T from Gespari, he'd know he needed real Nolva or Clomid for PCT - not that Nova crap.

Bottom line - I wish I had a "Smote button" (a Simpsons episode), so I could smote the kid talked about in the 1st post. And Joe Biden.

 

[Beowulf]

First, the obvious: the government should not have the right to tell us what we put into our bodies.

Second: PHs/PSs should have been strictly regulated like alcohol. The fact that so many teens were able to buy steroids as strong as M1T is frightening. And you can say it is the kids' responsibility to know what they are putting into their bodies, but this is not entirely true. The pre-frontal cortex of the brain, the part that allows one to reason, is not completely developed. One of the consequences of the late development of the pre-frontal cortex is that teens are often incapable of anticipating consequences, such as gyno, impotence, hairloss, etc. In many, this region isn't developed unti the early 20s. Yikes. This is one of the reasons kids get into so many car accidents. They do stupid things that any RATIONAL person would know not to do.

Third: PCT was dangerously absent from PH bottles. People need to do the research, obviously. That is what I did. I have never seen a PH bottle that doesn't say "Can cause hairloss, testicle shrinkage..." etc. If that doesn't arouse your curiousity you are a fucking idiot. Nonetheless, the manufacturers could have given a bit more direction.

 

[TUCKER]

manufacturers should have taken a bigger responsibility, b/c most pple just go by what is said on the label and never know that other things need to be done

 

[chasec]

Big-Mac's to PH's is apples to oranges.

your right, they're both fruit

 

[Chippewa]

Additionally, I read the other day that something like 2% of 8th graders surveyed had used steroids in 1994. How much do you think this number increased when you could get M1T @ GNC in 2004? Don't get me wrong, I think all the media "save the children" articles are crap, but this is still scary. I'm all for personal responsibility but are you really willing to say to an 8th grader that they're just going to live with some probably truly awful consequences for the rest of their life because they polished off 12 bottles of M1T in 4 months?

I wonder if that's really true, though, considering that Channel One runs programs that liken creatine to steroids. I'll bet a bunch of 8th graders *think* they've used steroids because they've been over-warned that every sports supp in the world is some form of gear.

 

[Chippewa]

I was in a discount supp store and saw the man I used to ask questions hand someone Trib for PCT from M1T..

Now THAT one baffles me, because I still see knowledgeable people on forums like this one (not *specifically* this one) who refer to using Trib for PCT or "to raise my Test levels."

Given that there is not ONE study--zip, zilch, NONE--in a peer-reviewed publication that has EVER found tribulus to have ANY effect on testosterone or body comp, this tells me that even some guys among our own informed tribe still swallow supp company ad copy.

 

[Chippewa]

Most M1T products suggest you consult with your physician before you begin any diet or training regimine.
how many people do that?
probably 1 in 100,000

on there for liability purposes of course

PURELY for liability purposes. For that matter, how many docotrs know anything about the chemistry or uses of M1T?

 

[KCPreki11]

your right, they're both fruit

McDonalds: Billions and Billions Served.
PH's: Millions and Millions Taken. (If that)

Hope that wasn't too hard for you to comprehend.

 

[cable626]

oh my god you have to see the people at GNC and Vitamin Shoppe that I have dealt with. they're a bunch of idiots. Ugh u have no idea how many times this guy tried selling me "this new NO2 product we just got in" when I went in to ask him about 6-oxo for PCT. He looked at me like "Whattttt is PCT???"
I walked out and came on the boards.

Also, I have a friend who wanted some M1T, and he got mad at me cuz he bought me a whole bunch of protein. I told him that he shouldn't take it cuz 1-he's younger than me and 2- HE WOULD NOT RESEARCH IT AT ALL. he's one of those types who just does it. He wouldn't have done PCT, would've fucked up his body, and even when I tried telling him this he didn't want to hear it, he just wanted some M1T. wat a retard.

 

[anonymousness]

I wonder if that's really true, though, considering that Channel One runs programs that liken creatine to steroids. I'll bet a bunch of 8th graders *think* they've used steroids because they've been over-warned that every sports supp in the world is some form of gear.

Haha, Channel One that takes me back. That's a fair point but remember the statistic was from 1994.

 

[Wes Hopkins #48]

The sad part is I am 32 and I was scared about using M1T even though I have done other cycles. These kids just pop this stuff in their mouths like they were tic tacs.

Un-freaking-believable!

 

[ryansm]

A big point here that is being missed is that the manufacturers of these products wanted the truth about products such as m1t to not be known to the general public. Reason being that these compounds were always in the grey area, legal loopholes, any attention was not wanted. For instances if the warnings are placed on the bottle, that these compounds have such and such side effects, and that proper pct should be followed, how long do you think the FDA would allow the sales to continue? The ban would have been enforced much sooner, imo.

This type of mentality doesn't suit the consumer as far as education and saftey are concerned, but it did allow us to obtain these substances when in all fairness we never really should have.

 

[JavaGuru]

My best friend's girlfriend who knows nothing about steroids or supplements found his bottle of UG labs M1T, read the label and forbid him to take anymore of it, "because it was dangerous." If a person actually read the label and thought it was as innocent as protein powder they deserve to have their genes stricken from the pool before procreation. The phrase "May cause shrinkage of testicles and infertility in males" is enough to give any reasonable male pause. It also lists the dosage as 1 capsule two times per day, which is a relatively safe dosage of M1T.

The number one cause of liver failure in the United States is accidental acetimenophen overdose. Even though the bottle says in bold type not to exceed the recommended dosage. It also says not to consume alcohol but countless dumbasses exceed the dosage and take a dose after the bar for the next mornings hangover. I don't care how many warnings you put on a bottle dumbasses will always abuse a product.

 

[T-Bone]

You can't immediately expect every consumer to be an expert on being able to spot bullshit when they see it. You can expect them to read the label though. The truth is, many of the companies in the supplement industry are nothing more than snake oil merchants. It is an industry more full of con artists and scum than even the used car business.

I wholeheartaly agree!:goodpost:

 

[Newb017]

i dont, it's your body, if you mess it up you could screw something up forever, cause injury, cause discomfort, cause death, it's your job to research ANYTHING you put in your body

 

[drumirvin]

when it comes to your body anything you do to it is on your shoulders, i couldn't imagine being ignorant enough to just go popping pills without knowing exactly what I'm taking and what's going on in my body[/QUOTE]
Newbo17..you have it exactly on the head with this...I mean..I have been down the creatine road..PH road...AAS...as well as slin and Human hormone..(IGF-1..hGH) though scared s...less everytime I have "tried" something new...I have RESEARCHED EVERYTHING...and researched again..I guess that's why I noticed your quote. I was at another site (no names mentioned Get b.com) and it is so funny, the "kids" their, who will buy anything injectable or otherwise and then ask "how" to use it...I guess we have got a few here as well but it seems to be curtailed by the positive info we have at anabolicminds. Like you said ..."why would someone put compounds let alone one simple PH, into their body, without taking the time to find out what it does...?" This is what kills our sport...the idiots that develop problems associated with the "if one worked, lets try two theory." I enjoy trying and experimenting, safely, body building chemistry..I don't need some punkass 13 year old, who tells his mom that all the kids are taking it, so she buys it, ruin my chances on becoming as muscular as I can become through the sciences...but you watch...now that all the baseball players are singing like a bird...all sorts of fun supplement bans are "going" to take place, or at least try...you know...creatine will can give you a major case of the squirts..and this might cause money loss do to underwear buying...sorry for the rant...but I am glad to see an 18 year old make a good descision...wish I would have made a better descision when I took that first reforvit shot when I was 18....OUCH!! So anabolicminds was not around then for research....

 

[Foster]

I have a bottle of M1T right here by Omega Sports.
All it says is don't exceed recommended dosage of 20 mg a day or for longer than 4 weeks without a two weeks break. Don't use if you are pregnant, nursing, have heart, liver, kidney, thyroid disorder or are taking MAO inhibitors. Discontinue if you experience dizziness, heart palpatations or headaches.

Now honestly do you think that accurately reflects the contents? I mean nothing about drinking, nothing about PCT, and no warning for people under 21. I could go on, but sports center is on. Seriously, this is ridiculous. They basically tried to screw people so they could sell more product.