Tear apart my cycle plan , need guidance from the gurus !

[ThatGuyZA]

Hi All,

Ok finalising my order and planning everything so would like some input from the pros please...

History : I have done AAS as well as PH cycles before as well as a Superdrol cycle.
I have decided to end of with the M-Sten as opposed to kickstarting with it
I do have Dbol on hand but do not want to put the additional strain on my liver after discussing that on this forum at a previous time

Here is my plan so far...
I am looking at doing 12 weeks Test C and then adding Methylstenbolone at the last 4 or 6 weeks to end the cycle and hopefully dry things out a bit.
I am looking at a 3 month winter bulk with a strict gym regime 5 days on 2 days rest and a clean diet of around 3500 calories.



Week 1 - 12
Test Cyp @ 500ml (250ml Twice a week to keep levels stable)
I have taken Test C to test my reaction as I have done Test E in the past.
I have researched this **** out of this across the web so i hope I am not coming in with stupid questions.

Week 6-12
Methylstenbolone (M-Sten extreme by Assault labs) @ 12\16\16\16\20\20mg ED

• Preload hawthorn berry 2 week prior to starting…
• Taurine throughout cycle – to assist with pumps \ cramps \ improve sleep
• Milk Thistle – Liver
• Organ protect supplement
• Joint control supplement

Do I need to add TUDCA and Fenugreek to this?

THIS IS THE AREA I NEED GUIDANCE PLEASE
I have the following available and just need to put in the order, but need to know quantities and how where i add them in.
I have a average idea but would prefer to have the input from experienced users as I am a bit unsure about the AI portion during cycle as I have never used AI on a cycle before

• Pregnyl
• Aromasin

PCT: (4weeks)
Nolvadex 40/20/20/20 (mg/day per week)
Clomid 100/50/50/0
Post Cycle 3x by Vital Labs
Nutritech DAA
Cortisol control

Once again thank you for your help, tear it apart ! I am open to any suggestions you are the gurus with all the experience after all!

 

[Mystere3]

Given you're running no other orals I think finishing with msten is safe but I don't understand the rationale. If you're looking to dry out, epi, anavar, tbol, winny would be better.

Aromasin 25 mg eod or 12.5 ed is a good dose.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

You could add in TUDCA but no need for fenugreek.

Your SERM doses are excessive. 20/20/10/10 with Nolva and/or 50/50/25/25 with Clomid is enough.

No need for Pregnyl (HCG) with such a short cycle IMO.

I'd also run M-Sten for weeks 9-14 so it would be in your system while the test E clears out.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Thanks gents,
Mystere I think its more I have the Msten on hand already so dont want to spend more cash. g0hardorgohom Thanks I will adjust the Msten as you stated!

 

[Mystere3]

If you're dead set on msten it'd be more effective as a kicker at the beginning.

 

[rizamoto]

It's debatable what's more effective. Up front to speed up gains or at the end to solidify them. If you have troubke making gains and then up front. If you have troubke keeping them then at the end whaiting for esters to clear going into pct. Personally I have found that at the end is very usefully in maintaing gains. And I only used 20mg. If you have enough run it up front and at the end.

 

[Mystere3]

We'll ideally both but I'd prefer something else as a finisher than msten.

 

[reps4jesus]

I'd kickstart with msten and use a nonmethyl at the end. Trendione would be effective at the end and it would be nice to get some extra strength gains before ending your cycle. 6 weeks min.

 

[rizamoto]

I'd kickstart with msten and use a nonmethyl at the end. Trendione would be effective at the end and it would be nice to get some extra strength gains before ending your cycle. 6 weeks min.

He already said he's not buying more great. Trying to incorporate what he has. You could mAke endless suggestions on how to make the cycle better by adding more gear.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Ok so essentially from all the input , I should look at running something to start as well as end, so I am going to have to go with another PH regardless as I only have enough M-Sten for one month.

So all your suggestions on a closer then please, I shall start with the M-sten to speed up my gains as advised by Rizamoto.

Seeing this will be my complete winter bulk I might as well throw more skin in the game

 

[Mystere3]

Ideal finisher would be anavar or tbol for a bulk; if those arebt available or affordable epi or halo may be good choices.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

I also recommend Epi.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Think I shall go with Epistane then !

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Think I shall go with Epistane then !

Check out EP15TANE, it's the most affordable clone in the market. One bottle is enough for full 6 weeks at 30/45/45/45/45/45

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Perfect !

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Would this change my PCT or anything else I have planned?

Week 1 - 12
Test Cyp @500mg (250mg twice a week)

Week 1-4
Methylstenbolone (M-Sten extreme by Assault labs) @ 20\20\20\20mg ED

Week 6-12
Epistane 6 weeks at 30/45/45/45/45/45

Aromadex (what dose would I use for this and where in the cycle?)
Seems my guy cant get aromasin anymore

PCT: (4weeks)
Nolvadex 20/20/10/10
Clomid 50/50/25/25
Post Cycle 3x by Vital Labs
Nutritech DAA

Plus
• Preload hawthorn berry 2 week prior to starting…
• Taurine throughout cycle – to assist with pumps \ cramps \ improve sleep
• Milk Thistle – Liver
• Organ protect supplement
• Joint control supplement

Is this clean and GTG?

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Would this be ok on the liver ?

 

[Driven2lift]

You already have a solid option but another great Epi clone

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/ironflex-supplements-brawn.html

Also if you're having issues getting an AI a good and viable OTC option is always Form

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/black-lion-research-formeron.html

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Would the Formeron be better than using Aromadex on cycle?

Still very concerned about doing 2 methyls over 12 weeks. Has anyone done a cycle like this before? I don't want to murder my liver!

 

[g0hardorgohom]

I prefer Formeron because Arimidex can be bad for your lipids.

I'd run the cycle this way:

Weeks 1-12 test at 500mg/week
Weeks 1-4 M-Sten
Weeks 9-14 Epi at 30/45/45/45/45/45

You would have 4 week break between methylated compounds... And you would have decent amount of androgens (Epi) in your body while the test clears out of your system.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

I prefer Formeron because Arimidex can be bad for your lipids.

I'd run the cycle this way:

Weeks 1-12 test at 500mg/week
Weeks 1-4 M-Sten
Weeks 9-14 Epi at 30/45/45/45/45/45

You would have 4 week break between methylated compounds... And you would have decent amount of androgens (Epi) in your body while the test clears out of your system.

Sounds good to me, I can only get Forma Stanzol will that suffice over Formeron and if so will one bottle be enough?

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Sounds good to me, I can only get Forma Stanzol will that suffice over Formeron and if so will one bottle be enough?

Forma Stanzol seems to be okay but I always prefer Formeron because Black Lion Research is a reputable company unlike N T B M IMO.

One bottle is not enough for those 14 weeks. At least 2 bottles are needed.

 

[Ancalagon]

If you need a potent AI that's not overly expensive, my recommendation would be ATD. Highly potent suicidal aromatase inhibitor. Good stuff, not very expensive.

 

[rizamoto]

New cycke layout looks great. Use the formeron over that other formstanzol garbage tho.

 

[Ancalagon]

Formeron is much more expensive than ATD.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Yeah it is but it's better AI too IMO.

ATD has some antiandrogenic properties too...

And formestane increases IGF-1 levels.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yeah it is but it's better AI too IMO.

ATD has some antiandrogenic properties too...

And formestane increases IGF-1 levels.

Fair enough. If i haven't said so on this thread I'm no fan of using AI's. Used them before, but I don't anymore.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Fair enough. If i haven't said so on this thread I'm no fan of using AI's. Used them before, but I don't anymore.

I only use mild AI's too but if I'm running something that aromatizes, I always use transdermal formestane. I got gyno when I ran M1,4ADD without AI in the past and I don't want to experience that ever again.

 

[Ancalagon]

I only use mild AI's too but if I'm running something that aromatizes, I always use transdermal formestane. I got gyno when I ran M1,4ADD without AI in the past and I don't want to experience that ever again.

When I run M14 I take Nolva 20mg every 5th day. No AI.

 

[jbryand101b]

I prefer Formeron because Arimidex can be bad for your lipids.

Wut?

 

[jbryand101b]

Yeah it is but it's better AI too IMO.

ATD has some antiandrogenic properties too...

And formestane increases IGF-1 levels.

Huh?

 

[reps4jesus]

He already said he's not buying more great. Trying to incorporate what he has. You could mAke endless suggestions on how to make the cycle better by adding more gear.

I said kick start with msten, which he already has. But if he wants to finish with another oral then use something else. A non methyl.

I did incorporate his msten. And I added something else. He doesn't have to follow my advice.

Also you don't just "add more gear" to make a cycle better. That's how you hurt yourself bud.

He doesn't have to buy more "great" as you said, I'm assuming its gear though lmao. I prefer to buy gear over great any day.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Wut?

Yes, and I've got bloods done and they proved it. I used Arimidex as on-cycle AI with test solo and it was bad for my lipids. Aromasin and formestane didn't affect my lipids negatively.

Huh?

Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androg... [Horm Behav. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

Effect of two-4-hydroxyandrostenedio... [Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[jbryand101b]

Yes, and I've got bloods done and they proved it. I used Arimidex as on-cycle AI with test solo and it was bad for my lipids. Aromasin and formestane didn't affect my lipids negatively.

Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androg... [Horm Behav. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

Effect of two-4-hydroxyandrostenedio... [Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Really? Do you not know that androgens can bind with the androgen receptor?
Both atd and formestane are steroids.

Atd is as much an anti androgen as boldenone.

Not to mention they were giving 15mg to rats. That's a lot of atd for a rat

Second study listed results as
272.47 +/-213.22 ng/ml,

With a variance of plus or minus 213.22ng/ml !
Yea, that's reliable

There are so many factors that come into play, to anecdotally to to blame one steroidal aromatase inhibitor, and not another is preposterous.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, and I've got bloods done and they proved it. I used Arimidex as on-cycle AI with test solo and it was bad for my lipids. Aromasin and formestane didn't affect my lipids negatively.


Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androg... [Horm Behav. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

Effect of two-4-hydroxyandrostenedio... [Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks for the links, good reads. I don't really use ATD anymore, but this serves as extra confirmation that not using it is a good choice.

 

[Ancalagon]

Really? Do you not know that androgens can bind with the androgen receptor?
Both atd and formestane are steroids.

Atd is as much an anti androgen as boldenone.

Not to mention they were giving 15mg to rats. That's a lot of atd for a rat

Second study listed results as
272.47 +/-213.22 ng/ml,

With a variance of plus or minus 213.22ng/ml !
Yea, that's reliable

There are so many factors that come into play, to anecdotally to to blame one steroidal aromatase inhibitor, and not another is preposterous.

Perhaps so. But I still think avoidance of AIs is a good idea where possible. If only because lowering estrogen is generally a bad thing.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Thanks for the links, good reads. I don't really use ATD anymore, but this serves as extra confirmation that not using it is a good choice.

Take them with a grain of salt if you want, jbry is def smarter than me.

ATD being not the best OTC option out there is just common knowledge (or rumour) here where I'm from.

 

[Ancalagon]

Take them with a grain of salt if you want, jbry is def smarter than me.

ATD being not the best OTC option out there is just common knowledge (or rumour) here where I'm from.

Fair enough. Like i said, interesting reads (I have a degree in math and biology and plenty of chemistry so I know what I'm reading). That said, it isn't changing what I'm already doing (or not doing). Just interesting. No big deal.

 

[jbryand101b]

Take them with a grain of salt if you want, jbry is def smarter than me.

ATD being not the best OTC option out there is just common knowledge (or rumour) here where I'm from.

I'll say this, atd crushes my estrogen, so I don't use it.

You want to control estrogen on cycle, not destroy it

 

[Ancalagon]

I'll say this, atd crushes my estrogen, so I don't use it.

You want to control estrogen on cycle, not destroy it

True that. And some extra estrogen never hurt anyone who is taking a SERM.

 

[jaycuda]

You could add in TUDCA but no need for fenugreek.

Your SERM doses are excessive. 20/20/10/10 with Nolva and/or 50/50/25/25 with Clomid is enough.

No need for Pregnyl (HCG) with such a short cycle IMO.

I'd also run M-Sten for weeks 9-14 so it would be in your system while the test E clears out.

Agreed, I like doing 40 for the first 3 days then 20/20/10/10 Nolva but that paired with 100 Clomid would be overkill and probably bring on some nasty sides of itself.

 

[hardknock]

No significant IGF-I variations were seen in the 250 mg group, whereas a significant increase after 3 months (181.57 +/- 84.78 ng/ml versus 272.47 +/- 213.22 ng/ml, p = 0.0032) was observed in the 500 mg group

The avg patient age was basically 55...

I wouldn't specifically place that as evidence with someone 23 and on cycle, plus the variance was very high.

Never the less, I wouldn't touch ATD because it makes my joints feel as if they are hardened chips.

 

[g0hardorgohom]

I'll say this, atd crushes my estrogen, so I don't use it.

You want to control estrogen on cycle, not destroy it

I agree 100%.

ATD is nasty stuff.

 

[Colbert]

Rather than doing 250ml twice a week it's much better to do 166 EOD. A lot of IFBB have recommended me that and that is what I have been doing and everything has been going much better and I'm not even sore from pinning anymore.

Test C and E are basically the same thing.

I would say the test alone would do a great cycle for 12 weeks but if you want to mix something else with it I would say only ONE other product. Stacking comes into play when you have been using these for a long time and you know how you react to every component.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Found some Formeron so All systems go !

 

[ThatGuyZA]

I prefer Formeron because Arimidex can be bad for your lipids.

I'd run the cycle this way:

Weeks 1-12 test at 500mg/week
Weeks 1-4 M-Sten
Weeks 9-14 Epi at 30/45/45/45/45/45

You would have 4 week break between methylated compounds... And you would have decent amount of androgens (Epi) in your body while the test clears out of your system.

Hi there , g0hardorgohom please could you advise on where I would add the Formeron into the cycle ? On cycle or PCT?

 

[g0hardorgohom]

Hi there , g0hardorgohom please could you advise on where I would add the Formeron into the cycle ? On cycle or PCT?

On cycle. I think 2 pumps/day would be good starting point.

 

[Driven2lift]

On cycle. I think 2 pumps/day would be good starting point.

Agreed, usually start with 2 and add mire pumps if needed. If you add more split it into 2 applications, the initial 2 pumps can be done at once.

http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/black-lion-research-formeron.html

The BLR section here has lots if feedback on dosing people used and also proper application techniques.

 

[ThatGuyZA]

Logging here...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/250993-test-cypionate-m.html