Cycle overlook

FreakJay

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Looking to start a cycle come June.. Going to take milk thistle 2 weeks before I decide to begin.. Going to take Dmz Xtreme 50/50/50/50.. I will be running a cycle assist on the side.. All supps I have on the side are casein creatine and protein.. Also for my pct I am taking clomid 50/50/25/25 and Xtreme pct (test booster, est block).. Any criticism would be appreciated
 
jaycuda

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I'd supplement Taurine as well, dmz can cause back pumps and other cramps that get pretty rough. Id take 3-5g split in two doses.
 

FreakJay

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I'd supplement Taurine as well, dmz can cause back pumps and other cramps that get pretty rough. Id take 3-5g split in two doses.
My bad I thought I wrote that in.. I have that as well.. Thank you for bringing that up.. You can just mix that in post workout shake correct ? thanks
 
reps4jesus

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Use cel cycle support. Its the best on cycle product. Also if your going to pre load then do hawthorn berry. It causes an initial spike in bp.
 
reps4jesus

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Meh, lgi damage control is better IMO, so is arimicare.
Low dosed tudca is worthless. I'm not gonna get into a "who's product is better argument". But I will say cel cycle support is properly dosed, uses proven ingredients, and is AFFORDABLE. I have personally used it for 2 different cycles and both where very successful. It's also cheaper than the products you listed.
I have also used tudca at 500-750mg (triple dose of the products you listed) and the only difference was that it didn't include all the other ingredients for helping with bp, prostate, ect.

Unless you want to pay the extra $ 20-40 for extra tudca, or buy 2 $30 bottles of damage control so you can double dose (to get a somewhat good dose of tudca) then cel cycle support is the way to go.
Cel $27-full cycle
Low doses tudca $60-100 for a cycle.

You could buy brawn tudca to supplement with on top of cel cycle support and it would still more than likely be cheaper. And equally/more effective.

I understand its your opinion, and I respect that. However cel has more than proven itself in terms of cycle support. Reviews are great also.
 
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mw1

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I'd supplement Taurine as well, dmz can cause back pumps and other cramps that get pretty rough. Id take 3-5g split in two doses.
Agreed

Meh, lgi damage control is better IMO, so is arimicare.
Actually Damage Control is underdosed in almost every single ingred..the only plus is the TUDCA
 
jbryand101b

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Can't comment on tudca or Sam e.

Never used them or needed to.
 

Mystere3

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Meh, cel cycle ASSIST was good for cycles 4-5 years ago; That being said:

Damage Control:
Amount Per Serving
N-acetyl L-Cysteine (NAC) 500mg
Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10 Natural/Ubidecarenone) 100mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 150mg
Hawthorne Berry 200mg
Celery Seed 75mg
Saw Palmetto (std. min 18% fatty acids)(berries) 200mg
Queretin Anhydrous (min. 95%) HPLC 150mg
SAMe (S-Adenosyl Methionine Tosylate Disulfate) 400mg
Bupleurum Chinese Root 500mg
TUDCA Sodium (as Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid Sodium) 200mg

Cel:

N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine 750 mg **
Milk Thistle (Standardized to 80% Silymarin) 500 mg **
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) 500 mg 5000%
Hawthorn Berry Extract (Satndardized to 1.8% Vitexin) 450 mg **
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 50 mg 10000%
Saw Palmetto Extract (Standardized to 45% Fatty Acids) 160 mg **
Celery Seed Extract (10:1) 75 mg **
Grape Seed Extract (95% Proanthocyanidins) 75 mg **
Policosanol 20 mg **
Zinc Gluconate 15 mg

Yes the nac is slightly low and maybe Hawthorne berry is low, but IMO the tudca more than makes up for it. IMO the most important agents for cycle support are nac, tudca, and fish oil. Coq-10 isn't bad either.

How would you know if low dosed tudca is useful or not? The only study that looked at it did use high doses but that doesn't mean low doses aren't effective. That's the same attitude that had people using 5000 IU of hcg for the longest time.

Fwiw, I double dose damage control and also add 500 mg tudca on any methylated cycle.




Low dosed tudca is worthless. I'm not gonna get into a "who's product is better argument". But I will say cel cycle support is properly dosed, uses proven ingredients, and is AFFORDABLE. I have personally used it for 2 different cycles and both where very successful. It's also cheaper than the products you listed.
I have also used tudca at 500-750mg (triple dose of the products you listed) and the only difference was that it didn't include all the other ingredients for helping with bp, prostate, ect.

Unless you want to pay the extra $ 20-40 for extra tudca, or buy 2 $30 bottles of damage control so you can double dose (to get a somewhat good dose of tudca) then cel cycle support is the way to go.
Cel $27-full cycle
Low doses tudca $60-100 for a cycle.

You could buy brawn tudca to supplement with on top of cel cycle support and it would still more than likely be cheaper. And equally/more effective.

I understand its your opinion, and I respect that. However cel has more than proven itself in terms of cycle support. Reviews are great also.
 
mw1

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Meh, cel cycle ASSIST was good for cycles 4-5 years ago; That being said:

Damage Control:
Amount Per Serving
N-acetyl L-Cysteine (NAC) 500mg
Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10 Natural/Ubidecarenone) 100mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 150mg
Hawthorne Berry 200mg
Celery Seed 75mg
Saw Palmetto (std. min 18% fatty acids)(berries) 200mg
Queretin Anhydrous (min. 95%) HPLC 150mg
SAMe (S-Adenosyl Methionine Tosylate Disulfate) 400mg
Bupleurum Chinese Root 500mg
TUDCA Sodium (as Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid Sodium) 200mg

Cel:

N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine 750 mg **
Milk Thistle (Standardized to 80% Silymarin) 500 mg **
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) 500 mg 5000%
Hawthorn Berry Extract (Satndardized to 1.8% Vitexin) 450 mg **
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 50 mg 10000%
Saw Palmetto Extract (Standardized to 45% Fatty Acids) 160 mg **
Celery Seed Extract (10:1) 75 mg **
Grape Seed Extract (95% Proanthocyanidins) 75 mg **
Policosanol 20 mg **
Zinc Gluconate 15 mg

Yes the nac is slightly low and maybe Hawthorne berry is low, but IMO the tudca more than makes up for it. IMO the most important agents for cycle support are nac, tudca, and fish oil. Coq-10 isn't bad either.

How would you know if low dosed tudca is useful or not? The only study that looked at it did use high doses but that doesn't mean low doses aren't effective. That's the same attitude that had people using 5000 IU of hcg for the longest time.

Fwiw, I double dose damage control and also add 500 mg tudca on any methylated cycle.
The Damage Control label is PER DAY and the Cycle Assist is PER SERVING;) so yes it is underdosed ..and the SAMe is actually 200mgs
 

Mystere3

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The Damage Control label is PER DAY and the Cycle Assist is PER SERVING;) so yes it is underdosed ..and the SAMe is actually 200mgs
I cut and pasted from the label, so w/e.

Yeah cel is cheap. I think running it and tudca would be fine. I'd rather run double dosed lgi.
 
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I cut and pasted from the label, so w/e.

Yeah cel is cheap. I think running it and tudca would be fine. I'd rather run double dosed lgi.
The label is somewhat "misleading" so its easy not notice the difference by just scanning over it
 

FreakJay

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So the main cycle assist would be cel with Tudca supp on side ?
 

Mystere3

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That would be a good combo. Tudca at 500 mg a day is probably fine.
 
reps4jesus

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I was merely saying cel cycle support as in cels version of cycle support. I call all versions of cycle support this. because they are all cycle support products.
cel is a better deal end of story, if you want more protection, add some tudca. Still cheaper. And more effective. Why? Because cel cycle ASSIST dosing is spot on. No under dosed ingredients like tudca just in there to make a consumer think they are getting something worth while.
 
reps4jesus

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So the main cycle assist would be cel with Tudca supp on side ?
Yessir. I'd use this combo if I was running something like sd. If I'm running epi then I would just use the cycle assist. But some people use tudca on all cycles.
 

Mystere3

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Honestly you could just run TUDCA but if it makes you feel better run cycle assist. It does have a nice dose of nac.

There's no evidence any of the agents in cycle support except tudca help your liver in the setting of steroid use. Nac is not very bioavailable when taken orally and is used IV to treat hepatotoxicity (acetaminophen overdose) but maybe a megadose will do something.

As far as bp control or whatever, maybe Hawthorne berry will help a bit but there's no established dose range for it. More isn't necessarily better.

I don't think any of the other agents do much, period.

200 isn't a lot for TUDCA and I'd run more but it's a whole lot better than nothing. There is NO EVIDENCE establishing an effective dose for TUDCA for prophylaxis against steroid induced cholestasis anywhere.
 
mw1

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Here is a little piece wrote by Synapsin comparing Cycle Assist to another popular support product..check the references at the end--

Competitive Edge Lab’s (CEL) Cycle Assist
Cycle Assist is designed to be an all-in-one support solution for basic on cycle and post cycle therapy needs. Cycle Assist contains a combination of specifically dosed ingredients designed to help provide liver, blood pressure, cholesterol, prostate, and acne support (1-35).

Also, unlike many other products in its class, every herb in Cycle Assist is a standardized extract and the standardization amount is clearly identified on the label. This is extremely important because it is the amount of active ingredient that an herb is standardized for that determines the level of benefits received from it. Example: A product can be dosed very high in mg of herb powder, but standardized poorly and therefore offer very little if anything in terms of effectiveness.
This article will serve as a comprehensive guide to the most important ingredients in Cycle Assist.
N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine (NAC) is used in the management of drug overdose (such as acetaminophen), and acts as a mucolytic agent. The inclusion of NAC in Cycle Assist is due to its protective effects on the liver and kidney. It is possibly one of the most effective over the counter products available on the market for protecting your liver from damage (1-13).
Milk Thistle is perhaps one of the most famous herbs in the world, widely known for its liver protective effects. Research on milk thistle has suggested that it is both capable of preventing liver damage AND repairing liver damage (14-18).
Pantothenic Acid has been shown to lower free cholesterol, triglyceride counts, and total cholesterol in the liver (19).
Hawthorn Berry Extract has been shown to potentially help with chronic heart failure, fatigue, palpitations, and dyspnea (20-21).
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCl) can protect individuals from cardiovascular disease by lowering homocysteine levels in the blood (22-23).
Saw Palmetto Extract is a popular men’s health herbal product, most commonly used for benign prostatic hyperplasia. Users often take it while on cycle for prostate health benefits. It has also been suggested to help with male pattern baldness (24-28).
Celery Seed Extract has been suggested to lower blood sugar, decrease blood pressure, promote relaxation, and protect the liver from damage (29-30).
Grape Seed Extract can potentially improve symptoms of hypertension, lower high levels of blood cholesterol, inflammation, and improve liver function (31-33).
Policosanol can potentially improve your cholesterol levels by lowering levels of LDL (bad cholesterol) while simultaneously improving levels of HDL (good cholesterol) (34-35).
Antaeus Labs Talos
Since the release of CEL’s Cycle Assist, many companies have tried to release their own version of Cycle Assist, but they all pale in comparison to Cycle Assist, the best on cycle product on the market. One such product is Antaeus Labs’ product “Talos”. A comprehensive review of the literature has revealed that this product is nothing more than pixie dust, filled with many ingredients at either meaningless doses, lacking any extract information, or ingredients that have zero applications in humans (with little to no animal research either).
The only overlapping ingredients in Talos that overlaps with Cycle Assist is Vitamin B6. Cycle Assist not only states what form of Vitamin B6 we use (this actually matters), but also has a higher dosage of B6.
The main ingredients in Talos are the following:
Prunus Cerasus (Sour Cherry)
Matrine
Trans-Resveratrol
Dunaliella salina extract (10% 9-Cis-Beta Carotene)
Salicin
Astaxanthin
Prunus Cerasus (Sour Cherry) only has one real study on it. The study has no data on its usage in humans, its only data conducted on cell cultures, and it’s only suggested function is that it may act as an antioxidant. It is virtually useless for usage as an on cycle product (36).
Matrine has been suggested to act as an analgesic and an anti-cancer agent, but again, that is irrelevant to an individual running a cycle. Its anti-cancer properties (specifically breast cancer) would be more relevant for usage during PCT rather than on cycle, and it has no human data to confirm such a conclusion that is indeed effective for that usage (37-38).
Trans-Resveratrol is a very popular buzz product (and it has been the last few year), but nobody is quite sure what it actually does yet. It suffers from huge bio-availability issues (oral resveratrol bio-availability is nearly zero), and the dose in Talos (50 mg), is worthless in humans (39).
Dunaliella salina extract (10% 9-Cis-Beta Carotene) is a head scratcher. It has one study on the effects of cancer of proventriculus in mice, and a few studies evaluating its efficacy as a potential antimicrobial. This ingredient has no place in an on cycle product, and truly shows how much of a filler in is (40-41).
Salicin is the one ingredient in this product has that any real benefit, but the dosage in this product is far too low for users to feel any benefit.
Astaxanthin is similar to Dunaliella salina extract in that it is an antioxidant that neutralizes free radicals in the eye and nervous system. Its inclusion in an on cycle product, however, is meaningless because it is primarily used by individuals to promote ocular health, which is not a real concern for those on cycle.

And there you have it, a comprehensive review of the best on cycle product on the market (Cycle Assist) versus the latest pretender (Talos). Not only does Cycle Assist include a variety of standardized herbal extracts with clinical trials in humans, but it also includes them at physiologically relevant dosages.
References:
1. Borgström, L.; Kågedal, B.; Paulsen, O. (1986). "Pharmacokinetics of N-acetylcysteine in man". European Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 31 (2): 217–222. doi:10.1007/BF00606662. PMID 3803419.
2. Dilger, R. N.; Baker, D. H. (2007). "Oral N-acetyl-L-cysteine is a safe and effective precursor of cysteine". Journal of Animal Science 85 (7): 1712–8. doi:10.2527/jas.2006-835. PMID 17371789.
3. Kanter, M. Z. (2006). "Comparison of oral and i.v. Acetylcysteine in the treatment of acetaminophen poisoning". American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy 63 (19): 1821–7. doi:10.2146/ajhp060050. PMID 16990628.
4. Dawson, AH; Henry, DA; McEwen, J (1989). "Adverse reactions to N-acetylcysteine during treatment for paracetamol poisoning". The Medical journal of Australia 150 (6): 329–31. PMID 2716644.
5. Bailey, B; McGuigan, M (1998). "Management of Anaphylactoid Reactions to Intravenous -Acetylcysteine". Annals of Emergency Medicine 31 (6): 710–5. doi:10.1016/S0196-0644(98)70229-X. PMID 9624310.
6. Schmidt, L. E.; Dalhoff, K (2008). "Risk factors in the development of adverse reactions to N-acetylcysteine in patients with paracetamol poisoning". British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 51 (1): 87–91. doi:10.1046/j.1365-2125.2001.01305.x. PMC 2014432. PMID 11167669.
7. Lynch, R; Robertson, R (2004). "Anaphylactoid reactions to intravenous N-acetylcysteine: a prospective case controlled study". Accident and Emergency Nursing 12 (1): 10–5. doi:10.1016/j.aaen.2003.07.001. PMID 14700565
8. Tepel, Martin; Van Der Giet, Marcus; Schwarzfeld, Carola; Laufer, Ulf; Liermann, Dieter; Zidek, Walter (2000). "Prevention of Radiographic-Contrast-Agent–Induced Reductions in Renal Function by Acetylcysteine". New England Journal of Medicine 343 (3): 180–4. doi:10.1056/NEJM200007203430304. PMID 10900277.
9. Hoffmann, U.; Fischereder, M; Krüger, B; Drobnik, W; Krämer, BK (2004). "The Value of N-Acetylcysteine in the Prevention of Radiocontrast Agent-Induced Nephropathy Seems Questionable". Journal of the American Society of Nephrology 15 (2): 407–10. doi:10.1097/01.ASN.0000106780.14856.55. PMID 14747387.
10. Miner, S; Dzavik, V; Nguyen-Ho, P; Richardson, R; Mitchell, J; Atchison, D; Seidelin, P; Daly, P; Ross, J et al. (2004). "N-acetylcysteine reduces contrast-associated nephropathy but not clinical events during long-term follow-up". American Heart Journal 148 (4): 690–5. doi:10.1016/j.ahj.2004.05.015. PMID 15459602.
11. Marenzi, Giancarlo; Assanelli, Emilio; Marana, Ivana; Lauri, Gianfranco; Campodonico, Jeness; Grazi, Marco; De Metrio, Monica; Galli, Stefano; Fabbiocchi, Franco et al. (2006). "N-Acetylcysteine and Contrast-Induced Nephropathy in Primary Angioplasty". New England Journal of Medicine 354 (26): 2773–82. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa054209. PMID 16807414.
12. Kay, J.; Chow, WH; Chan, TM; Lo, SK; Kwok, OH; Yip, A; Fan, K; Lee, CH; Lam, WF (2003). "Acetylcysteine for Prevention of Acute Deterioration of Renal Function Following Elective Coronary Angiography and Intervention: A Randomized Controlled Trial". JAMA 289 (5): 553–8. doi:10.1001/jama.289.5.553. PMID 12578487.
13. Act, Investigators (September 2011). "Acetylcysteine for prevention of renal outcomes in patients undergoing coronary and peripheral vascular angiography: main results from the randomized Acetylcysteine for Contrast-induced nephropathy Trial (ACT)". Circulation 124 (11): 1250–9.
14. Szilárd, S; Szentgyörgyi, D; Demeter, I (1988). "Protective effect of Legalon in workers exposed to organic solvents". Acta medica Hungarica 45 (2): 249–56. PMID 3073356.
15. Palasciano, Giuseppe; Portincasa, Piero; Palmieri, Vincenzo; Ciani, Daniela; Vendemiale, Gianluigi; Altomare, Emanuele (1994). "The effect of silymarin on plasma levels of malon-dialdehyde in patients receiving long-term treatment with psychotropic drugs". Current Therapeutic Research 55 (5): 537–45. doi:10.1016/S0011-393X(05)80184-5.
16. Angulo, P; Patel, T; Jorgensen, RA; Therneau, TM; Lindor, KD (2000). "Silymarin in the Treatment of Patients with Primary Biliary Cirrhosis with a Suboptimal Response to Ursodeoxycholic Acid". Hepatology 32 (5): 897–900. doi:10.1053/jhep.2000.18663. PMID 11050036.
17. Lieber, Charles S.; Leo, Maria A.; Cao, Qi; Ren, Chaoling; Decarli, Leonore M. (2003). "Silymarin Retards the Progression of Alcohol-Induced Hepatic Fibrosis in Baboons". Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology 37 (4): 336–9. doi:10.1097/00004836-200310000-00013. PMID 14506392.
18. Ladas, Elena J.; Kroll, David J.; Oberlies, Nicholas H.; Cheng, Bin; Ndao, Deborah H.; Rheingold, Susan R.; Kelly, Kara M. (2010). "A randomized, controlled, double-blind, pilot study of milk thistle for the treatment of hepatotoxicity in childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL)". Cancer 116 (2): 506–13. doi:10.1002/cncr.24723. PMC 3542639. PMID 20014183.
19. Naruta, E.; Buko, V. (2001). "Hypolipidemic effect of pantothenic acid derivatives in mice with hypothalamic obesity induced by aurothioglucose". Experimental and Toxologic Pathology 53 (5): 393–398. doi:10.1078/0940-2993-00205. PMID 11817109.
20. Harry Fong & Jerry Bauman 2002. Alternative Medicines for Cardiovascular Diseases--Hawthorn, Journal of Cardiovascular Nursing 16(4):1-8.
21. Sweet JMRBV (2002). Hawthorn: Pharmacology and therapeutic uses. American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy 59: 417-422.
22. Miodownik C, Lerner V, Vishne T, et al. High-dose vitamin B6 decreases homocysteine serum levels in patients with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders: a preliminary study. Clin Neuropharmacol 2007 Jan-Feb;30(1):13-7.
23. Schnyder G, Roffi M, Flammer Y, et al. Effect of homocysteine-lowering therapy with folic acid, vitamin B12, and vitamin B6 on clinical outcome after percutaneous coronary intervention: the Swiss Heart study: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA 8-28-2002;288(8):973-979.
24. Markowitz JS, Donovan JL, Devane CL, et al. (December 2003). "Multiple doses of saw palmetto (Serenoa repens) did not alter cytochrome P450 2D6 and 3A4 activity in normal volunteers". Clin. Pharmacol. Ther. 74 (6): 536–42. doi:10.1016/j.clpt.2003.08.010. PMID 14663456.
25. Wilt T, Ishani A, Mac Donald R (2002). "Serenoa repens for benign prostatic hyperplasia". In Tacklind, James. Cochrane Database Syst Rev (3): CD001423. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD001423. PMID 12137626.
26. Bent S, Kane C, Shinohara K, et al. (February 2006). "Saw palmetto for benign prostatic hyperplasia". N. Engl. J. Med. 354 (6): 557–66. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa053085. PMID 16467543.
27. Dedhia RC, McVary KT (June 2008). "Phytotherapy for lower urinary tract symptoms secondary to benign prostatic hyperplasia". J. Urol. 179 (6): 2119–25.
28. "Saw Palmetto". MedlinePlus (National Library of Medicine). 2008-02-01.
29. Sultana, S., Ahmed, S., Jahangir, T., & Sharma, S. (2005). Inhibitory effect of celery seeds extract on chemically induced hepatocarcinogenesis: modulation of cell proliferation, metabolism and altered hepatic foci development. Cancer letters, 221(1), 11-20.
30. Le QT, Elliott WJ. Hypotensive and hypocholesterolemic effects of celery oil may be due to BuPh. Clin Res. 1991;39:173A.
31. Bagchi, Debasis; Sen, Chandan K; Ray, Sidhartha D; Das, Dipak K; Bagchi, Manashi; Preuss, Harry G; Vinson, Joe A (2003). "Molecular mechanisms of cardioprotection by a novel grape seed proanthocyanidin extract". Mutation Research/Fundamental and Molecular Mechanisms of Mutagenesis. 523-524: 87–97. doi:10.1016/S0027-5107(02)00324-X. PMID 12628506
32. Vitseva, Olga; Varghese, Sonia; Chakrabarti, Subrata; Folts, John D; Freedman, Jane E (2005). "Grape Seed and Skin Extracts Inhibit Platelet Function and Release of Reactive Oxygen Intermediates". Journal of Cardiovascular Pharmacology 46 (4): 445–51.
33. Pan, Xinjuan; Dai, Yujie; Li, Xing; Niu, Nannan; Li, Wenjie; Liu, Fangli; Zhao, Yang; Yu, Zengli (2011). "Inhibition of arsenic induced-rat liver injury by grape seed exact through suppression of NADPH oxidase and TGF-β/Smad activation". Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 254 (3): 323–31. doi:10.1016/j.taap.2011.04.022. PMID 21605584.
34. Liu, S.; Tan, M. Y.; Zhao, S. P.; Rong, H. (2012). "Effects of policosanol on serum lipids and heme oxygenase-1 in patients with hyperlipidemia". Zhonghua xin xue guan bing za zhi 40 (10): 840–843. PMID 23302671. edit
35. Zanardi, M.; Quirico, E.; Benvenuti, C.; Pezzana, A. (2012). "Use of a lipid-lowering food supplement in patients on hormone therapy following breast cancer". Minerva ginecologica 64 (5): 431–435. PMID 23018482.
36. Blando, F., Gerardi, C., & Nicoletti, I. (2004). Sour Cherry (Prunus cerasus L) Anthocyanins as Ingredients for Functional Foods. Journal of Biomedicine and Biotechnology, 2004(5), 253-258. Hindawi Publishing Corporation.
37. Higashiyama, K.; Takeuchi, Y.; Yamauchi, T.; Imai, S.; Kamei, J.; Yajima, Y.; Narita, M.; Suzuki, T. (May 2005). "Implication of the Descending Dynorphinergic Neuron Projecting to the Spinal Cord in the (+)-Matrine- and (+)-Allomatrine-Induced Antinociceptive Effects" (pdf). Biological and Pharmaceutical Bulletin 28 (5): 845–848. doi:10.1248/bpb.28.845. PMID 15863891.
38. Ma, L.; Wen, S.; Zhan, Y.; He, Y.; Liu, X.; Jiang, J. (2008). "Anticancer Effects of the Chinese Medicine Matrine on Murine Hepatocellular Carcinoma Cells". Planta Medica 74 (3): 245–251. doi:10.1055/s-2008-1034304. PMID 18283616.
39. Wenzel, E., & Somoza, V. (2005). Metabolism and bioavailability of trans-resveratrol. Molecular nutrition & food research, 49(5), 472-481.
40. Xue, L. X. (1993). Experimental study on extract of Dunaliella salina in preventing NSAR-induced cancer of proventriculus in mice. Zhonghua yu fang yi xue za zhi [Chinese journal of preventive medicine], 27(6), 350-353.
41. Herrero, M., Ibáñez, E., Cifuentes, A., Reglero, G., & Santoyo, S. (2006). Dunaliella salina microalga pressurized liquid extracts as potential antimicrobials. Journal of food protection, 69(10), 2471-2477.
 

Mystere3

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The problem with nac is bioavailability. The dose for hepatotoxicity is 140 mg/kg, so for a 200 lb man that's about 14 grams. Bioavailability is 4%, so you'd need 400 grams of oral NAC for the same effect. Therefore the low dosage in either agent is likely worthless.

Everything else isn't going to do anything to protect your liver against steroid induced cholestasis. It might be good for lipid and bp control, though.
 

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Honestly the best possible cycle support would be something like chlorithalidone, fish oil, tudca, and a prostate specific 5a reductase inhibitor like proscar.
 
ion26

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Tried using a liver support once, felt like it was useless. Never used a liver support again.
 
jaycuda

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My bad I thought I wrote that in.. I have that as well.. Thank you for bringing that up.. You can just mix that in post workout shake correct ? thanks
That's what I do. Otherwise it tastes like chalk lol
 

FreakJay

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ok so it looks like im gonna be doing dmz 50/50/50/50 while doing 500 mg tudca and cel cycle assist and some taurine on side just incase .. PCT is going to be Clomid 50/50/25/25 with a test boost and est reduce on side... how does this sound ?!
 

FreakJay

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im actually doing 48/48/48/48 of dmz... I thought it 25 per cap its 16... going to be taking 3 caps a day how spread out should i do them and then the cycle assist (help please)
 
jbryand101b

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you should only need 2 caps per day, 32mg, and take cycle assist in the am, and again around 12hrs later or before bed, whichever comes first.
 

FreakJay

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you should only need 2 caps per day, 32mg, and take cycle assist in the am, and again around 12hrs later or before bed, whichever comes first.
It comes with 90 pills using 2 a day would only be 60... Extend the length of the cycle ?
 
KenTheEagle

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Looking to start a cycle come June.. Going to take milk thistle 2 weeks before I decide to begin.. Going to take Dmz Xtreme 50/50/50/50.. I will be running a cycle assist on the side.. All supps I have on the side are casein creatine and protein.. Also for my pct I am taking clomid 50/50/25/25 and Xtreme pct (test booster, est block).. Any criticism would be appreciated

Add tudca and you are all set. Not a fan of standalone cycles anymore, I prefer to stack to bridge and lower doses (safer doses andyou get the best of diff compounds), but you should get nice gains with dmz, good luck
 

FreakJay

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Add tudca and you are all set. Not a fan of standalone cycles anymore, I prefer to stack to bridge and lower doses (safer doses andyou get the best of diff compounds), but you should get nice gains with dmz, good luck
Thanks brah makes me feel confident for this cycle... I'm new to it don't wanna mix it and match and mess it up you know
 
reps4jesus

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good luck man.
 

FreakJay

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Do you guys think I can do without a test base on cycle
 
ion26

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Do you guys think I can do without a test base on cycle
I've done it before, because DHT derivatives messes with my hair. If you can handle the strong lethargy then you'll be fine.

Edit: I should mention. You have to be able to will yourself out of bed in the mornings. Your body will be begging you not to workout. I used to workout from 3-5, and pass out from 6-9 right after.
 
Synapsin

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The problem with nac is bioavailability. The dose for hepatotoxicity is 140 mg/kg, so for a 200 lb man that's about 14 grams. Bioavailability is 4%, so you'd need 400 grams of oral NAC for the same effect. Therefore the low dosage in either agent is likely worthless.

Everything else isn't going to do anything to protect your liver against steroid induced cholestasis. It might be good for lipid and bp control, though.
That makes absolutely no sense, not to mention you are not applying HSD properly. You're also negating studies on the matter.
 

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