Synergy Pro-active recovery therapy (PART)!!

[Guest]

Disclaimer: The protocol works without cAMPHIBOLIC but its a great addition to an already proven protocol. The user is liberated to use PART with or without cAMPHIBOLIC and encouraged to use both protocols. I am confident they would chose to use the cAMPHIBOLIC version after experiementing. This is not a low down scheme or gimmic.


Synergy Pro-active recovery therapy (PART)!!



Retain and even gain muscle with PART.



The basis of this Recovery Method is based on Factual Data and Real World results. These methods are the brainchild of the smartest man (of course my personal opinion) in Pharmakentics applied to bodybuilding. The Name I will not disclose but many will postulate the protocols origin. The genius of the protocol is revolutionary. Traditional Post cycle Therapy (PCT) protocols will exit stage left when Pro-Active recovery therapy (PART) is introduced!



The purpose of PART is to recover natural production of testosterone and thyroid (if t-3 is used) while maintaining, or losing a minimum of lean body mass gained during an Anabolic/androgenic cycle. Bodybuilders are afraid to discontinue AAS because of the inevitable crash. We all experienced the lack of sexual vigor, depression, loss of Lean body mass, and the many other negative effects associated with the “crash.�



DRUGS USED FOR (PART)



Testosterone Enanthate

Clomid



Yes, I said Testosterone Enanthate! More specifically 150mg/ml of testosterone Enanthate a week! PART if administered correctly will allow the user to maintain 90% of lean body mass gained during an AAS cycle, or even gain a few pounds during PART.



Rules of PART

--You must discontinue Long ester Steroids 4 weeks before starting PART. Nandrolone deconate, Boldenone Undecylnate, and Sustanon are steroids with esters that last over 3 weeks in the system. The presence of long estered steroids will eliminate the purpose of PART, and you will be on an extended weak steroid cycle.

--You must use estrogen antagonist (clomid) or again, you will be on an extended cycle.



SUPPLEMENTS USED WITH PCR



My personal theory is that all supplements should be avoided (except fish oil, Protein powders, and vitamins) while using Steroids. The simple reasoning behind the theory is that the supraphysiological effects of steroids will not be aided with additional dietary supplements. In PART, You need additional “motivation� to continue to training and maintain focus. The supplements below are the ones that I currently use in my regimen. The supplement regimens are unique to each individual so just find what works and put it to work.



cAMPHIBOLIC is the only supplement required in the PART regimen. The research behind cAMPHIBOLIC can be found at synergymuscle.com in an article titled the cAMPHIBOLIC series. In short, cAMPHIBOLIC blocks cortisol, stimulates LH, and anabolic. The forskolin in cAMPhibolic increases both testosterone production and GnRH secretion.



cAMPHIBOLIC

Creatine

Citrulline Malate

Acetly L-carnitine

Nootrophic formula of your choice



Pre-PART PROTOCOL

The first part of the protocol will prime your body for PART. We will call it Pre-PART. Pre-PART begins in the last 3 weeks of your steroid cycle.



Pre-PART is simply the addition of HCG at 500 IU every 3 days for the duration of your cycle. You must discontinue HCG to continue the PART protocol. cAMPHIBOLIC will be introduced in the last week of your steroid cycle and continued through PART. Again, cAMPHIBOLIC increases testosterone production, GnRH secretion, TSH (thyroid stimulating hormones) secretion, and blocks cortisol.



THE PART PROTOCOL



Week one

--150mg testosterone enanthate injection

--300mg of clomid for the first 3 days then reduce dose to 150mg per day

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on workout days

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes on workout days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on non-training days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 6-7 hours latter on non-training days

--Supplement regimen of choice

Week Two

--150mg testosterone enanthate injection

--150mg clomid per day

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on workout days

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes on workout days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on non-training days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 6-7 hours latter on non-training days

--Supplement regimen of choice

Week 3

--150mg testosterone enanthate injection

--150mg clomid per day

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on workout days

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes on workout days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on non-training days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 6-7 hours latter on non-training days

--Supplement regimen of choice

Week 4

--50mg clomid per day

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on workout days

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes on workout days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC in morning on empty stomach on non-training days

--2 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 6-7 hours latter on non-training days

--Supplement regimen of choice

Week 5 and on

--You can discontinue clomid after week four and continue on your regular supplement regimen. I continue using cAMPHIBOLIC for additional 30-60 days but that decision is for the consumer to gage.





Conclusion



For the progressive thinkers, the new PART program will be loved and will change PCT as we know it today!! Of course there will be the nay Sayers and critics. The references are listed for those interested in the science behind the PART protocol. The PART protocol is backed by science and REAL WORLD results. PART WORKS!!!







Finkelstein JS, Whitcomb RW, O’Dea LStL, Longcope C, Schoenfeld DA, Crowley Jr WF. 1991 Sex steroid control of gonadotropin secretion in the human male. I. Effects of testosterone administration in normal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone-deficient men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 73:609—620

Schnorr JA, Bray MJ, Veldhuis JD. "Aromatization mediates testosterone's short-term feedback restraint of 24-hour endogenously driven and acute exogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone-stimulated luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone secretion in young men." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2001 Jun;86(6):2600-6

Winters SJ, Janick JJ, Loriaux DL, Sherins RJ. "Studies on the role of sex steroids in the feedback control of gonadotropin concentrations in men. II. Use of the estrogen antagonist, clomiphene citrate." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1979 Feb;48(2):222-7

Naftolin F, Judd HL, Yen SS. "Pulsatile patterns of gonadotropins and testosterone in man: the effects of clomiphene, with and without testosterone added." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1973 Feb;36(2):285-8

Product Information: AndroGel(TM), testosterone gel. Unimed Pharmaceuticals, Buffalo Grove, IL, USA, 2000.

Sokol RZ, Palacios A, Campfield LA et al: Comparison of the kinetics of injectable testosterone in eugonadal and hypogonadal men. Fertil Steril 1982; 37:425-430.

 

[lifted]

I don't understand. Are you saying you're taking on testers or what? Also why are you advocating using 150mg of test during PCT?? I must be missing something.

 

[Alpha Dog]

Questions:

1. What is the rationalle behind Clomid over Nolava? Personal opinion or otherwise?
2. Why test enthanate? Wouldn't a shorter ester work better with lower and more frequent dosing?
3. How would you modify this program for shorter cycles (4-6 weeks)? Shorter cycles seem to be a trend, but keeping gains is always a challenge regardless of cycle length.
4. If using test post cycle, why not use an anti-aramotas or suicide inhibitor to prevent it from aramotising to estrogen? It would seem to make sense....

bow

 

[Guest]

No sir, I am not taking on testers. This method has been tested by my clients and many others.

Correct, You could even go to 200mg/ml of testosterone and recover, but an estrogen antagonist must be used in combination. I would stay on the safe side at 150mg/ml. You will not be dissappointed on the results...absolutely no crash!

You will have to reduce training volume.

ceosm

 

[Guest]

1. What is the rationalle behind Clomid over Nolava? Personal opinion or otherwise?

Clomid also stimulates the testicals. You would not want to use an armotase inhibitor because you want estrogen for recovery.



2. Why test enthanate? Wouldn't a shorter ester work better with lower and more frequent dosing?

The data comes from using Test E so I would not refute the data. You want a steady release of Test in the system and not quick spikes like prop would provide.
3. How would you modify this program for shorter cycles (4-6 weeks)? Shorter cycles seem to be a trend, but keeping gains is always a challenge regardless of cycle length.

No modification needed. You could start HCG on the last 2 weeks instead of the last three.

4. If using test post cycle, why not use an anti-aramotas or suicide inhibitor to prevent it from aramotising to estrogen? It would seem to make sense....

You do not want to suppress estrogen for recovery. Clomid is an anti estrogen. You are only using 150mg/ml so aromatization should not be problem if gyno is your concern.

ceosm

 

[Sticks]

No offense to you, and I hope I don't catch hell for this. But this seems like more of an ad for your product line than anything else. Using even as little as 150 mg of test a week will be enough to keep your exogeneous test surpressed. I've seen this type of regimen discussed on these boards before, and to me this looks more like the infamous dbol bridge than pct.

If one could recover on 150 mg's of test a week then why would we ever come off. This sounds an awful lot like the cruising method that doggcrap has advocated.

 

[Guest]

No offense to you, and I hope I don't catch hell for this. But this seems like more of an ad for your product line than anything else. Using even as little as 150 mg of test a week will be enough to keep your exogeneous test surpressed. I've seen this type of regimen discussed on these boards before, and to me this looks more like the infamous dbol bridge than pct.

If one could recover on 150 mg's of test a week then why would we ever come off. This sounds an awful lot like the cruising method that doggcrap has advocated.

Personal opinion is always welcomed, and your frame of mind was expected. The protocol works without cAMPHIBOLIC but its a great addition to an already proven protocol. The user is liberated to use PART with or without cAMPHIBOLIC and encouraged to use both protocols. I am confident they would chose to use the cAMPHIBOLIC version after experiementing. Read the Data from the research papers posted at the end of the article.

150mg testosterone with an estrogen antagonist will not suppress your endogenous testosterone.

I am not sure what the cruising method is, but I am sure it does have research and the backing of a "GURU." I would hate to believe that supplement marketing has tainted the industry to the point that every owner of every supplement has agendas beyond helping.

ceosm

 

[Alpha Dog]

Sorry, more questions.

My personal theory is that all supplements should be avoided (except fish oil, Protein powders, and vitamins) while using Steroids. The simple reasoning behind the theory is that the supraphysiological effects of steroids will not be aided with additional dietary supplements.

Yet you list ALC for post cycle. Why not ALC, R-ALA or NAC for liver protection during cycle?

You do not want to suppress estrogen for recovery. Clomid is an anti estrogen.

But clomid is a weak estrogen. Also, this is in direct conflict with most of the studies I have seen which show that estrogen is a strong part of the feedback mechanism regulating HTPA. While I agree that you want estrogen to maintain gains, wouldn’t you want to reduce estrogen in the short term to kick start GnRH production? Or am I just confused?

 

[Guest]

Sorry, more questions.




Yet you list ALC for post cycle. Why not ALC, R-ALA or NAC for liver protection during cycle?




But clomid is a weak estrogen. Also, this is in direct conflict with most of the studies I have seen which show that estrogen is a strong part of the feedback mechanism regulating HTPA. While I agree that you want estrogen to maintain gains, wouldn’t you want to reduce estrogen in the short term to kick start GnRH production? Or am I just confused?

Correct clomid is a weak estrogen that has high affinity to bind with the estrogen receptor. Hopefully, you are using anti-estrogen on your cycle up the finality of the steroid cycle.

The supplement regimen is what I use and not a critical to PART. In the article, I state that each individaul has his unique regimen. if You like to use ALC, R-ala, Or NAC for liver protection thats personal preference.

I personally like to all all my supplements after my steroid cycle.

ceosm

 

[flava]

can you provide some research that says that low doses of test e and clomid will not supress natural test. i find this very hard to understand how you body can recover with an exogenous hormone still being deliverd into the body. how come we havent heard about this along time ago? this would in a sense eleminate pct.

 

[Guest]

The references are posted at the end of the article.

ceosm

 

[glenihan]

1. What is the rationalle behind Clomid over Nolava? Personal opinion or otherwise?

Clomid also stimulates the testicals. You would not want to use an armotase inhibitor because you want estrogen for recovery.

....what are you talking about? are you saying Nolva is an aromatase inhibitor? because it isn't ... its a SERM just like clomid is
a-dex, letro, aromisin .. those are AIs

i am REALLY failing to see the science and rationale behind taking test e for several weeks during PCT .. its not POST cycle if you're still taking in test

 

[Alpha Dog]

.....Hopefully, you are using anti-estrogen on your cycle up the finality of the steroid cycle..

Nope, and for the same reason that you don't advocate an anti-estrogen or suicide inhibitor post cycle. As long as there is no evidence of gyno, I want a little estrogen during the cycle (not to the point of being bloated) to maintain joint viscosity and for its anabolic properties.

So, you are saying run an anti estrogen up to the finality of the cycle but not post cycle, correct? Just run the estrogen antagonist post cycle. This seems contradictory.

 

[lifted]

I don't see the studies listed that say exo Test admin. in combination w/ clomid is not supressive. Can you please post the study in it's entirety?

Also, why use a long test ester like enth? The effects won't even be seen until the week 4 mark if at all.

ALSO, the theory about clomid/test won't supress is mixing you up I think. In order for HCG/SERM use to begin, one's levels must come down to a "high normal" level. This meaning exo or endo Test. And 150mg/week is definately not hgih normal...it's still a supraphysiological level. And then you say 200mg/week will even work??!!

I'm not trying to be a dick here as is noone else, but I'm really failing to see ANY kind of logic here.

 

[Guest]

....what are you talking about? are you saying Nolva is an aromatase inhibitor? because it isn't ... its a SERM just like clomid is
a-dex, letro, aromisin .. those are AIs

i am REALLY failing to see the science and rationale behind taking test e for several weeks during PCT .. its not POST cycle if you're still taking in test

Where did I mention that Nolva was a aromatas inhibitor? didn't.

"It's not post cycle if your're still taking test"

Says who and where is the science behind that?

ceosm

 

[Guest]

Nope, and for the same reason that you don't advocate an anti-estrogen or suicide inhibitor post cycle. As long as there is no evidence of gyno, I want a little estrogen during the cycle (not to the point of being bloated) to maintain joint viscosity and for its anabolic properties.

So, you are saying run an anti estrogen up to the finality of the cycle but not post cycle, correct? Just run the estrogen antagonist post cycle. This seems contradictory.

Come on, Contradictory...did you read the question you sent.

"4. If using test post cycle, why not use an anti-aramotas or suicide inhibitor to prevent it from aramotising to estrogen? It would seem to make sense...."

If your concern is estrogen aromatizing at 150mg/ml of enanthate, I should of not assumed that you would be concerned with estrogen aromatizing on a regular steroid cycle. There was crazy rationale behind that statement. Please again point out where I contradicted myself.

 

[Guest]

I don't see the studies listed that say exo Test admin. in combination w/ clomid is not supressive. Can you please post the study in it's entirety?

Also, why use a long test ester like enth? The effects won't even be seen until the week 4 mark if at all.

ALSO, the theory about clomid/test won't supress is mixing you up I think. In order for HCG/SERM use to begin, one's levels must come down to a "high normal" level. This meaning exo or endo Test. And 150mg/week is definately not hgih normal...it's still a supraphysiological level. And then you say 200mg/week will even work??!!

I'm not trying to be a dick here as is noone else, but I'm really failing to see ANY kind of logic here.

Winters SJ, Janick JJ, Loriaux DL, Sherins RJ. "Studies on the role of sex steroids in the feedback control of gonadotropin concentrations in men. II. Use of the estrogen antagonist, clomiphene citrate." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1979 Feb;48(2):222-7

Naftolin F, Judd HL, Yen SS. "Pulsatile patterns of gonadotropins and testosterone in man: the effects of clomiphene, with and without testosterone added." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1973 Feb;36(2):285-8

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Winters SJ, Janick JJ, Loriaux DL, Sherins RJ. "Studies on the role of sex steroids in the feedback control of gonadotropin concentrations in men. II. Use of the estrogen antagonist, clomiphene citrate." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1979 Feb;48(2):222-7

Naftolin F, Judd HL, Yen SS. "Pulsatile patterns of gonadotropins and testosterone in man: the effects of clomiphene, with and without testosterone added." J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1973 Feb;36(2):285-8

Could you please provide scanned copies of these? They were in the early and late 70's and the information is not on Pubmed.

From every account that I have seen Clomid/Nolva will not reverse a hypogonadic state while still administering exogenous hormones, especially 150mg of testosterone. Clomid/Nolva will not bypass the feedback loop like HCG will. The only thing that can reverse atrophy and a hypogonadic state while still taking exogneous hormones is HCG. This has been well documentd in many HRT clinics.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

From Nandi:

"I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."


From Swale:

"Clomid does not cause an increase in LH (and therefore endogenous T production) in an environment of androgenic suppression. IOW, the "Clomid burst" is a myth."

 

[Dwight Schrute]

And 150mg will suppress:

"Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."


Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


"Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"

 

[Jeff]

This is not really the same protocol as cruising in that you do eventually come off of the test, it almost looks like the tread that was floating around on short cycles where the user took 'large' doses of clomid on the first day of the cycle and then tapered down every week until you stop the androgens. I have to say that this is the way my HRT doc had me run test cyp/clomid - every two months I would start the clomid (at a lower dose then above) while still using 150 mg/wk and then after two weeks of that I would drop the test for a week and continue with the clomid. I ran that for over a year and notice no testicular shrinkage (not that they were big to begin with) without HCG. I know that no testicular atrophy is not the same as not being supressed.

 

[glenihan]

1. What is the rationalle behind Clomid over Nolava? Personal opinion or otherwise?

Clomid also stimulates the testicals. You would not want to use an armotase inhibitor because you want estrogen for recovery.

right here it seems you indicate nolva is an AI, the question was posed why clomid over nolva, and your response was that clomid will stimulate the testicles, which hasn't (to my knowledge) been backed up in any studies, and that you don't want an AI, it seemed by your wording that you were implying nolva was an AI

if you weren't implying that, then you just didn't answer the question of why clomid over nolva

 

[Guest]

And 150mg will suppress:

"Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."


Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


"Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"

150mg will suppress healthy young men that are not comming off supraphysiological levels of hormone administration. You are considered hypogonadal comming off an AAS cycle. These studies are found on medline and one would need access to med libary for the full text.

In the references found below, The data was based on data LH will not be suppressed when elevating testosterone concentration to a peak level of 2,044 ng/dl. Know we have data demonstrating that 200 mg of Testosterone enanthate given to seven hypogonadal men was 1,233 ng/dl.

ceosm

 

[Guest]

right here it seems you indicate nolva is an AI, the question was posed why clomid over nolva, and your response was that clomid will stimulate the testicles, which hasn't (to my knowledge) been backed up in any studies, and that you don't want an AI, it seemed by your wording that you were implying nolva was an AI

if you weren't implying that, then you just didn't answer the question of why clomid over nolva

LOL..Correct I can see where you implied. I was thinking ahead of the question...My apology.

The individual who postulated this theory is working with an endocrinologist using this protocol patients on HRT. I am working on getting the creator of this protocol over to discuss the topic in depth. With his permission, I was able to spread this progressive thinking theory to the boards. I do not go out on a limb on sketchy science. The man who postulated the protocol has my deepest respect and is well versed in pharmacuetical chemistry. If comming from just a board expert( I am not expert in chemistry), I would be weary of the protocol aswell. The information is just that information. I took the information and applied it when comming off a cycle. In the past, I would lose close to 80% of LBM from a steroid cycle. Last year when I was presented this information, I applied the protocol. I ended the cycle wieghing 225 and I weigh 222 6 weeks after the cycle. I avoided the loss of libido, loss of LBM, loss of motivation and depression which accompany post ccyle. I spread the protocol to my friends and clients. The results where the same.

The purpose of presenting the information was not to portray myself as an expert in chemisty because my knowledge holds a dime to brains like Nandi, bill roberts, and cy wilson. In my time, I learned to form a great team and listen to words of the wise. You could either ditch the idea or try the idea. There is not much bad that could come from trying.

ceosm

 

[Dwight Schrute]

150mg will suppress healthy young men that are not comming off supraphysiological levels of hormone administration. You are considered hypogonadal comming off an AAS cycle. These studies are found on medline and one would need access to med libary for the full text.

In the references found below, The data was based on data LH will not be suppressed when elevating testosterone concentration to a peak level of 2,044 ng/dl. Know we have data demonstrating that 200 mg of Testosterone enanthate given to seven hypogonadal men was 1,233 ng/dl.

ceosm

150mg will suppress someone even FURTHER if they are coming off a cycle of supraphysiological doses. Studies clearly show the longer you are suppressed, the longer it will take Leydig Cell production to normalize. Clomid/Nolva do not ncrease Leydig Cell production WHILE on 150mg of testosterone.

As I have said before and noted on many occasions, LH rise does not mean you are recovered at all. LH pulses continue within the first week when coming off supraphysiological doses using nothing at all. It recovers VERY fast. Its the response of the testes TO LH that initiates recovery and that takes time. The only thing that can speed this process up while on is HCG. If your reports are just measuring LH pulses then your conclusions are WAY off. It shows bascially nothing. There are many steroids than even intiate higher levels of LH during a cycle yet testosterone production is nil.

If you have the papers, scan them post them. I can easily get access to a med library but if you already have the data please present it.

 

[Alpha Dog]

Come on, Contradictory...did you read the question you sent.

Please, chill. I was not attacking you. However, you must realize this goes far against the conventional wisdom and as such people are going to be skeptical and ask questions.

So, that being said, let me try again.

.....Hopefully, you are using anti-estrogen on your cycle up the finality of the steroid cycle.

This statement would indicate that estrogen would be less than benefical at the end of a cycle, correct? Why, is estrogen anti-anabolic? We know that's not the truth. Is it because that like test, when it exceeds baseline it can negatively effect HTPA? That is the ony conclusion I can draw from the statement above.

...You do not want to suppress estrogen for recovery. Clomid is an anti estrogen.

But, we want HTPA recovery. Supressing estrogen has been shown to assist in this process. So, why would we want to supress estrogen during the cycle but not during PCT?

Do you see where I was going? If I worded the question poorly, I apologize.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Clomid/Nolva suppress estrogen selectively (SERM) at the hypothalamus and pituitary and you definetly want this PCT.

 

[captainbicept]

This is extremely similar in concept to using Dbol upon waking. In theory taking 10mg of dbol upon waking would be in coordination with the bodys own natural test spike. However, it has been proven that even using this method, the body does not fully recover. I have used this method succesfully and did not crash when i did. However, it was blaitantly obvious to me that my body was still utilizing androgens.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

The problem with that is that the natural test spike is during the first 2-3 hours of sleep (along with LH and GH), not in the morning

 

[Guest]

Please, chill. I was not attacking you. However, you must realize this goes far against the conventional wisdom and as such people are going to be skeptical and ask questions.

So, that being said, let me try again.



This statement would indicate that estrogen would be less than benefical at the end of a cycle, correct? Why, is estrogen anti-anabolic? We know that's not the truth. Is it because that like test, when it exceeds baseline it can negatively effect HTPA? That is the ony conclusion I can draw from the statement above.



But, we want HTPA recovery. Supressing estrogen has been shown to assist in this process. So, why would we want to supress estrogen during the cycle but not during PCT?

Do you see where I was going? If I worded the question poorly, I apologize.

bow,

The problem on communication on the boards is that we judge mood by words and not emotion. I am not taking offense to any question just answering on how i See fit...Again, honest discussion!

ceosm

 

[Guest]

This is extremely similar in concept to ung Dbol upon waking. In theory taking 10mg of dbol upon waking would be in coordination with the bodys own natural test spike. However, it has been proven that even using this method, the body does not fully recover. I have used this method succesfully and did not crash when i did. However, it was blaitantly obvious to me that my body was still utilizing androgens.

ca


captianbicept,

did you use it on a bridge and proceed on to another cycle?

 

[chasec]

i'd be immensely grateful to somebody who could give some normative feedback on this issue. to me, it seems contradictory to further inhibit your testes response to the LH during PCT; but than again i'm way over my head here. some feedback from people who have done this would be appreciated.

 

[Guest]

bobo,

The full text lies in the hands of the creator but he informed me it can be found in the MED libary.

ceosm

 

[captainbicept]

I ran it during my PCT, I was not using it as bridge, as i like to take breaks in between cycles. It definately helped avoid a crash and helped keep gains. However, I was not fully recovering.

Bobo, can you post a link or study showing this please? Most things I have read indicate that there is a natural testosterone spike approximately around the time we wake up. I know many people say morning erections are proof of this; I dont know if I would take it that far though.

 

[Guest]

I ran it during my PCT, I was not using it as bridge, as i like to take breaks in between cycles. It definately helped avoid a crash and helped keep gains. However, I was not fully recovering.

Bobo, can you post a link or study showing this please? Most things I have read indicate that there is a natural testosterone spike approximately around the time we wake up. I know many people say morning erections are proof of this; I dont know if I would take it that far though.

So you eventually crashed and lost gains?

 

[ericnb_98]

i'd be immensely grateful to somebody who could give some normative feedback on this issue. to me, it seems contradictory to further inhibit your testes response to the LH during PCT; but than again i'm way over my head here. some feedback from people who have done this would be appreciated.

I'm with you bro, I learned a lot from this thread but it's still over my head. :think:

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I ran it during my PCT, I was not using it as bridge, as i like to take breaks in between cycles. It definately helped avoid a crash and helped keep gains. However, I was not fully recovering.

Bobo, can you post a link or study showing this please? Most things I have read indicate that there is a natural testosterone spike approximately around the time we wake up. I know many people say morning erections are proof of this; I dont know if I would take it that far though.

Relationship between rapid eye movement sleep and testosterone secretion in normal men.

Luboshitzky R, Herer P, Levi M, Shen-Orr Z, Lavie P.

Endocrine Institute, Haemek Medical Center, Afula, Israel.

The relation between the pituitary-gonadal hormones' rhythm and sleep physiology in men is not fully elucidated. To examine whether the reproductive hormones are correlated with sleep architecture, we determined the nocturnal serum levels of testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) in six healthy young men. Serum hormone levels were obtained every 15 minutes from 1900 to 0700 hours with simultaneous polysomnographic sleep recordings. Hourly testosterone levels were lowest when subjects were awake (1900-2200 hours) than during sleep (2300-0700 hours). Testosterone nocturnal rise antedated the first REM by about 90 minutes. The rise in testosterone levels was slower when REM latency was longer. Mean nocturnal testosterone levels did not correlate with the number of rapid eye movement (REM) episodes. Also, pre-non-REM (NREM) testosterone levels were higher as compared with the pre-REM periods and lower during the first NREM period as compared with other nocturnal NREM periods. Serum LH levels disclosed a nocturnal rise that preceeded a similar rise in testosterone by about an hour. We conclude that in young adult men, testosterone levels begin to rise on falling asleep, peak at about the time of first REM, and remain at the same levels until awakening.

When you wake up, it actually drops.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'm with you bro, I learned a lot from this thread but it's still nver my head. :think:

Its pretty simple.

If you take 150mg/week of testosterone, you will be suppressed. The use of Clomid/Nolva will not change this.


The only thing that can change that and actually reverse a hypogonadic state (normal test levels) is HCG.

 

[captainbicept]

So you eventually crashed and lost gains?

Well, there wasnt a crash. The weight loss wasnt as rapid. However, upon cessation of my PCT protocol and the morning d-bol regimen, the gains slowing begain tapering off. I waited a long time before doing my next cycle, and I was sick in between cycles. The illness definately contributed to me losing my gains.
The dbol prevented the crash, the gains slowly faded there after.
My illness is an anomally and what makes my observations inconclusive obviously.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Dbol is even worse because its metabolite 17 methyl E2 is more suppressive than Dbol itself. So in other words, its metabolites do more damage (cause more suppression) than the parent hormone.

 

[captainbicept]

Bobo, so in reality the dbol bridge, or the use of dbol during PCT really tries to create a piggy back ride on the initial Testosterone spike by pro-longing it throughout the day?
The test spikes during REM sleep would make sense, because I have read in numerous studies that morning erections are caused by the disruption of REM sleep, in addition an erection is common during REM phases of sleep.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Uh no...

There is no spike in the morning and hormones don't piggy back anything. Dbol would never prolong any testosterone spike ever. It would decrease it. Exogenous hormones suppress and there is no way to trick the body in that regard. The whole theory is so off the wall and completely wrong that any endocrinologist would cry from laughing so hard.

 

[meat250]

wow we got a heated discussion going on...you guys are some smart mo fo's

Meat

 

[BodyWizard]

--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes on workout days

ceosm, you are pretty clear in laying out your regimen, except for this line.
Easy enough to read it as "--3 caps of cAMPHIBOLIC 30-45 minutes pre-workout on workout days"...but is that your intention?

Please clarify!

 

[captainbicept]

Bobo, Im sure you have read some of the articles written by the so called "guru's" pertaining to the dbol theory I mentioned as well as the theories I mentioned behind it. If their methodology is completed illogical where was it derived from, or how were these conclusions met?
Sorry, to be pissing you off with so many questions, but I have a great interest in this subject, and you seem pretty knowledgeable about this. Do you have a background in the bio-chem field or something?

 

[lifted]

Bobo, a bit O/T, but I can't PM you so I'll just ask here. What are your thoughts on using DHEA while on PCT. Counterproductive or is it aiding in recovery?

 

[jweave23]

150mg will suppress someone even FURTHER if they are coming off a cycle of supraphysiological doses. Studies clearly show the longer you are suppressed, the longer it will take Leydig Cell production to normalize. Clomid/Nolva do not ncrease Leydig Cell production WHILE on 150mg of testosterone.

As I have said before and noted on many occasions, LH rise does not mean you are recovered at all. LH pulses continue within the first week when coming off supraphysiological doses using nothing at all. It recovers VERY fast. Its the response of the testes TO LH that initiates recovery and that takes time. The only thing that can speed this process up while on is HCG. If your reports are just measuring LH pulses then your conclusions are WAY off. It shows bascially nothing. There are many steroids than even intiate higher levels of LH during a cycle yet testosterone production is nil.

:goodpost: Here's the main point I would emphasize in this thread, after reading it all. I was skeptical, but am always open to new ideas. Ok, so until we see the posted references, much of this new protocol doesn't make sense and is hard to take seriously. As Bobo noted, even LH rise is not indicitave of "recovery", a return to baseline hormone secretion as I define it.

We need to see the studies. It may not hurt to try, but I'm not comfortable recommending this to anyone.

 

[lifted]

Also, why use a long test ester like enth? The effects won't even be seen until the week 4 mark if at all.

??? Not that it matters because it still won't work IMHO, but why did you choose a long test ester? IE, test enth???

 

[Guest]

:goodpost: Here's the main point I would emphasize in this thread, after reading it all. I was skeptical, but am always open to new ideas. Ok, so until we see the posted references, much of this new protocol doesn't make sense and is hard to take seriously. As Bobo noted, even LH rise is not indicitave of "recovery", a return to baseline hormone secretion as I define it.

We need to see the studies. It may not hurt to try, but I'm not comfortable recommending this to anyone.

Jweave23,

the references are posted. You should not reccommend unless you try it yourself first. The protocol seems to be spitting in the face of conventional wisdom. You will be a believe once you try the protocol. Are you willing to risk 3 weeks at worse you will be adding 3 additional weeks to your cycle and recovery will be much easier.

I would also like to see references from bobo that shows 150mg testosterone will raise testosterone above the 2000ng/dl in hypogonadal men.

ceosm

 

[Guest]

150mg will suppress someone even FURTHER if they are coming off a cycle of supraphysiological doses. Studies clearly show the longer you are suppressed, the longer it will take Leydig Cell production to normalize. Clomid/Nolva do not ncrease Leydig Cell production WHILE on 150mg of testosterone.

As I have said before and noted on many occasions, LH rise does not mean you are recovered at all. LH pulses continue within the first week when coming off supraphysiological doses using nothing at all. It recovers VERY fast. Its the response of the testes TO LH that initiates recovery and that takes time. The only thing that can speed this process up while on is HCG. If your reports are just measuring LH pulses then your conclusions are WAY off. It shows bascially nothing. There are many steroids than even intiate higher levels of LH during a cycle yet testosterone production is nil.

If you have the papers, scan them post them. I can easily get access to a med library but if you already have the data please present it.

Once your suppressed for 10 weeks of steroid use can you be further suppressed? The protocol allows natural recovery while providing small amounts of testosterone to prevent natural loss of muscle that accompanies the end of the cycle. Are you stating that clomid does nothing to help recovery?