Common Dimethyl products - discussion/input appreciated
- 01-25-2014, 09:24 AM
Common Dimethyl products - discussion/input appreciated
Hi guys - I was recently looking at all the Dimethylated products on the shelf in the shop they are popular choices for the shelves over here - Ideally I would like to be able to compare some of these compounds so that I can advise in the best way possible to consumers - as I have stayed well clear of these myself I'm always cautious about recommending these as I know they are typically the harsher compounds. Like I have said before - I only have moderate PH knowledge (I know enough how to effectively advise people and of course myself how to achieve the results they want out of their cycles and to protect themselves and not ***k themselves up in the process) but when it comes to advanced information the more advanced questions/issues - that is where I am still learning so input from people who have used any of these or can answer some of the questions below would be very much appreciated and it may be helping more people who are searching for information on this stuff. I did search for Dimethylated topics - hoping to get a comparison discussion but I have not been able to find one.
I have outlined some common dimethyls for the purpose of anybody unaware of what they are out what they are POTENTIALLY looking at - although many of these are just theory or opinion A/A ratios and manufacturer/designer claims can be misleading at times and research done on RATS isnt necessarily always indicative of consequence for humans! So of course anything I have written or referenced is there to be disagreed with or corrected - I have no problem with that and I invite it - that is the point of this....
Methyl-1 Testosterone aka M1T
17a-methyl-1-testosterone, or 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1-androsten-3-one, or 17a-methyl-5a-androst-1-ene-3-one-17b-ol
A/A RATIO : 910-1600:100-220 vs. methyl test by oral administration
Quoted from UK-Muscle:
"Many have assumed that M1T aromatises, however that is structurally impossible. What is possible - and much more likely in my opinion - is that it is an inhibitor of 11b-hydroxylase, which would account for both the apparent water retention ("bloat") and high blood pressure some users experience.
Inhibition of 11b-hydroxylase can lead to increased renin secretion which results in higher levels of aldosterone, a mineralocorticoid that causes high blood pressure and water retention through sodium retention and the excretion of potassium. 
One study on bodybuilders found far higher levels of aldosterone in the steroid-taking group than in the non-steroid taking group - and these changes remained far past the end of their cycles. 
This may or may not be the case for M1T (and many other steroids), but it is food for thought, particularly as a previous study pointed the finger at aldosterone as a cause of left ventricular hypertrophy, and suggested that it's heart remodelling effects may be unrelated to it's blood-pressure increasing effects. "
This is a 17a-methylated compound, making it highly orally available. It lacks the delta-4 double bond of testosterone, having a 1,2 double bond instead. This means that it will not aromatise, and it will not 5a-reduce in androgen-sensitive tissues like testosterone can (since it's 5a-reduced already). Metabolism is limited, to a large extent, to reduction of the double bond and hydroxylation of the 3-ketone. "
End of Quote
It seems to be commonly agreed that liver stress is high on M1T - many people have complained to me about severe lathargy and loss of appetite/liver & stomach swelling and a few have reported shocking blood results even after 'sensible' cycle plans. Although many people say that M1T is the father of prohormones and one of only a few that are 'worth using' - although I'm not necessarily in agreement with that perception - it is one I hear a lot.
Methyl-Stenbolone aka Ultradrol/Msten
A/A ratio: 660:90-170 vs. methyltestosterone by oral administration
Looks like a hybrid attempt of M1T & Superdrol - but what does that mean for users what aspects of each compound would they see?
"methyl sten has somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 the anabolic activity of methyl-1-testosterone, and a similar A:A ratio (by oral administration to castrated rats)" - Quote UK muscle.
- Anybody vouch for that kind of claim on M-sten?
"The active ingredient in Ultradrol is an active and highly orally-bioavailable compound engineered to strongly resist metabolic breakdown on both the A and D rings -- precisely where other active hormonal molecules typically degrade into estrogenic or biologically-inactive metabolites. As a result, Ultradrol has a superior pharmacokinetic profile and exceptional potency. It does not aromatize into any estrogenic compound and has no affinity for the progesterone receptor, so estrogen and progesterone receptor mediated side effects are of no concern" - Quoted from Elite Formulations product description.
Is there is anything else here in this compound that may lead to bloat/water retention/blood pressure concerns? (As in just because it is supposed to be non-aromitising and has no interaction with Prog Receptor - does that necessarily mean we shouldn't be concerned about wet gains etc?)
From what I have heard first hand the gains are pretty good, with abit of bloat - not as powerful for gaining as SD or M1T - but also not as bad sides. That is what I have heard from personal feedback - not saying that definitely rains true for everybody.
"Since it's DHT-derived, aromatisation is impossible. 5a-reduction is also impossible, since it's already 5a-reduced. The 17a-methyl group greatly increases the bioavailability of the compound by oral administration.
The combination of delta 1-dehydrogenation and 2-methylation is likely to make the A-ring very resistant to metabolism. 3z-,16z-, and 18-hydroxylated metabolites are likely to be the only ones detectable after administration, other than the unchanged compound .
It is a strong oral steroid in the vein of pheraplex, superdrol, and M1T. It should be an excellent bulking compound at an appropriate dosage." Quoted UK Muscle
- At least those notes support suppliers claims
The dosages I have seen are 4mg and 7mg caps with SOME users reporting that 16mg was a high dose that made them feel shut down - so maybe 4mg caps give you more control as you could do 4,8,12 or 16 mg dosages rather than 7,14 or 21 - although this is just from log/forums opinion.
"It is inevitable that the compound will display some degree of hepatotoxicity" Quoted from UK Muscle
- This is the vague aspect - can anybody here give any more of a concise opinion on its endoctrinal impact ? How harsh in the realms of Dimethylated compounds is this?
Am I able to say that this is possibly the 'mildest' of the common dimethyls or is it up in the air?
Superdol aka SD; Mdrol; Methdrol; methasterone
17β-Hydroxy-2α,17α-dimethyl-5α-androstane-3-one or 2a,17a-dimethyl-etiocholan-3-one, 17b-ol or (more accurately) 2a,17a-dimethyl-etioallocholan-3-one, 17b-ol
"Has an extremely favorable Q (anabolic/androgenic) ratio. Q ratio = 20 (m-1-t is between 5-16, depending on assay). 20% as androgenic as 17a-MT oral (the reference standard); (m-1-t is 100-220% as androgenic as 17a-MT, for comparison). Superdrol is 400-800% as anabolic as the reference standard (17a-MT); (m-1-t is 910-1600% comparatively). The low androgenic profile of Superdrol will keep (androgenic) side-effects to a minimum" Quoted from Prohormone Database
This one is pretty well established and is still lining the shelves over here in the UK and commonly used for lean,hard impressive gains in strength and mass - I know most people will know all about it but I will reference some theory anyway for relevant comparison to the other compounds listed.
"Originally brought to market by Designer Supplements (then licensed to Anabolic Xtreme), this designer steroid is a 17a-methylated version of the injectable steroid masteron. Since we know 17a-methylation doesn't just increase oral bioavailability, it also changes the effect of the steroid, it may be more useful to consider superdrol as 17a-methyl-DHT with an additional 2-methyl (methyl groups at C1,C2, 17a, and 7a all increase anabolic activity). In fact, superdrol is one of the most potent anabolic steroids ever brought to market. Sadly, it's also one of the most toxic, as evidenced by a number of medical case studies of people hospitalised with cholestatic jaundice and worse. It's for this reason that cycles must be kept short and relatively low dosed. Due to it's structure, it can't aromatise, which means any gyno sides are typically post-cycle. On-cycle lethargy is common, as are shin and back pumps" Quoted from UK muscle.
"A derivative of Drostanolon which is the 2-methylated form of DHT, so it has typically been used for reducing body-fat and water retention, while increasing muscle hardness and density. There should be no estrogen conversion with this compound, because it's 5a-reduced and A-ring alkylated on top of that. Also, the parent compound is used exclusively as an anti-neoplastic for metastatic breast cancer, so it's a strong anti-e with mild diuretic effects" Quoted from Prohormone Database.
Now I do not know how accurate those claims are about it having strong Anti E/Diuretic effects - if this is a methylated version of masteron like many profile writers claim it is then perhaps the compound shares some similarities with Masteron (Although: a) There appears to be a lack of proof that Masteron is actually an anti estrogen in humans - if anybody has proof that it works that way in humans please share/provide and b) Methylation of course can affect properties of compounds - so how much SD can be compared to Masteron will mainly be from what users agree upon - although diet and genetics are always variables to consider).
I have heard a few complaints of gyno post cycle on this - could it have some kind of rebound estrogenic effect? Is it possible for this compound once converted in the body to have some kind of impact on estrogen or any other factors relating to gyno aggravation? This may well be related to the previous points noted above - but more opinion/discussion would probably be beneficial as I do not have the answers.
What about shut down in comparison to other strong compounds? Should PCT be any harder than other dimethylated products? Also if SD exhibits anti estrogenic effects (speculated) then should this be reflected in the PCT protocal? Avoidance of AIs etc?
Dimethazene aka DMZ
2a,17a-dimethyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol-3,3′-azine, or 2a,17a-dimethyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol-3-one-azine
"While Dymethazine is similar in effect to Superdrol, they are not completely the same which is demonstrated in their differing anabolic to androgenic ratios. Superdrol has an anabolic to androgenic ratio of 400/20, while Dymethazine has a ratio of 210/95 making it less anabolic and more androgenic than Superdrol.
"Dymethazine is an azine, two superdrol molecules attached to each other by a nitrogen atom. Stomach acid separates the two superdrol molecules from each other, after which they make their way to the androgen receptors. Dymethazine is also known as mebalozine." Quoted from Roberts, S (2009). Anabolic Pharmacology via Steroidology.com.
Why does bonding 2 SD molecules together in this way alter its A/A ratio dramatically in comparison to single SD?? - I do not currently possess the experience to have the knowledge to answer that - so please contribute if possible.
"Dymethazine is nearly identical to Superdrol, except it's two (as opposed to one) superdrol molecules attached to each other. Your body's stomach acid separates these two molecules prior to absorption, so it becomes a single molecule with two potential pathways. Despite this difference, Superdrol remains the more powerful compound.
The one advantage Dymethazine has over Superdrol is the lower likelihood/greater managability of side effects. Dymethazine is an incredibly potent compound and carries the same risks as any other powerful anabolic steroid or pro-hormone.
In a study, patients were administered Dymethazine for 45+ days. Liver values did not change for 50% of patients, while the other 50% noticed only modest to moderate increases in liver values. So, while Dymethazine can increase liver values, it is not as harsh as the current strong methyls currently available.
Dymethazine features 0% ability to aromatize and expresses an extremely weak androgenic activity. This means Dymethazine will produce gain with little to no liver impact and will cause no estrogen related side effects." Quoted from Prohormone Database
Again I do not know how accurate the theory there is - I don't want to go ahead and say that DMZ is much safer on the liver or less of a shut down risk due to supposedly being weaker. I know a guy who ran SD and DMZ at two seperate cycles - he put 5kg on in 3 weeks with both cycles (although I do not know diet - but knowing him I cant say there would be so much difference between the cycles).
I have heard that SD/DMZ gains are often dramatic because of cellular water retention (not subcutaneous water retention - water filling the muscles) and of course a great deal of that would be lost post cycle. What confuses me is that again the inhibition of 11b Hydroxylase has been suggested causes the muscle retention of water - but yet SD tends to be classed as dry and hardening (pointing to lack of subcutaneous water retention) whereas it has been speculated that the same inhibition causes bloat in M1T users...... surely the same effect would occur if that were the main driver of water retention in these compounds? Or not?? I haven't heard from personal experience with people using it that they lost most of their weight gain upon cessation though - given that PCT was sufficient. Although strength gains typically appear to drop post cycle. Also what about the anti estrogen effects of SD speculated above in the SD section? Do those still hold value for DMZ?
Anybody think its worth giving DMZ a try before stepping up to SD?
Dimethandrostenol aka D-drol
2,17α-dimethyl-17β-hydroxy-5α-androst-2-ene or 2,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androst-2-ene
My understanding is that it is supposed to be a Hybrid of Superdrol and Pheraplex - with the hopes that users would get the synergy of extreme mass and strength benefits from those compounds - however hybrids dont always necessarily transfer all the great aspects of their tried and tested parent compounds when they are slammed together.
"Preliminary testing indicated that it was very strong, with an anabolic to androgenic ratio of around 1000:200. The 2-methylene analogue was markedly weaker Ė though still potent. " Quoted from Total Flex Blog.
"Structure and Function:
Dimethandrostenol can be considered to be like methasterone (superdrol) with an additional double bond, or like desoxymethyltestosterone (phera-plex) with an additional 2-methyl group.
The presence of the adjacent double-bond causes the C-2 methyl group of dimethandrostenol to be planar (as with stenbolone and methyl stenbolone), unlike 2-methyl groups on saturated A-rings (like masteron and superdrol), which have to be in the alpha or beta position (alpha, in those examples).
Dimethandrostenol cannot aromatize to form estrogenic metabolites, as it has no C4-5 double bond (it is í5α-reducedí). For the same reason, it is not a substrate for (cannot be transformed by) the enzyme 5α-reductase (the enzyme that catalyzes the reaction that turns testosterone to DHT).
Potential metabolic transformations could include the reduction of the delta-2 double bond, formation of a 2-methylene metabolite, and various hydroxylation reactions. In desoxymethyltestosterone the double bond is fairly readily reduced; in dimethandrostenol itís likely that the adjacent methyl group increases resistance to reduction of the double bond.
The toxicity of oral steroids appears to be closely related to both potency and resistance to metabolism. Given that this compound is extremely potent, and is likely to be fairly resistant to metabolism, itís fair to assume it has a toxicity profile similar to other drugs of its class (i.e. those already mentioned)." Total Flex Blog
This one is interesting to me as it is still relatively new here on the shelves and there is yet to be a decent amount of feedback to explain what we should really expect versus the theory on what to expect from the compound. Being involved in the supplement industry I often talk to suppliers/manufacturers and one supplier did say that there has been some disappointing feedback from consumers - but he was referring to one specific brand at the time and it was just HIS personal experience - so perhaps brand quality could partly be to blame for disappointment on that one and not necessarily the compound - I dont want to over exaggerate the value of that information it is informal at best.
There was also a huge bash aimed at Mithras by Iron Legion (dimethandrostenol version of theirs) put up on mindandmuscle.net - it seemed a little bit personal or over critical to me - I'm not supporting it - just pointing out that they were very critical of the product.
I think there is already a discussion about this one on anabolicminds but It would be nice to hear some new feedback in comparison to these other compounds.
Input/discussion by people with more advanced knowledge would be beneficial for me and for others.... thanks guys"Your Clothes....................... ...Give them to me" - The Legend: T1
- 01-27-2014, 07:39 AM
"Despite the fact that methyldrostanolone is a DHT derivative and cannot convert to estrogen, some users have still reported gyno like symptoms during or after a cycle. This effect is likely related to the strong SHBG binding effect and increase in freely circulating estrogen (and testosterone) from SHBG. Gyno symptoms may also be related to the fact that methldrostanolone lacks a strong DHT metabolite to antagonize the effects of estrogen (while also having a relatively low intrinsic androgenic value)." Quoted from a Superdrol profile on Pro-hormones.co.uk.
That may explain why some people have complained about gyno issues with SD....this of course contests claims that SD is a strong ANTI E"Your Clothes....................... ...Give them to me" - The Legend: T1
- 01-27-2014, 12:53 PM
- 5'11" 225 lbs.
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- Jun 2007
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I've never heard M1T referred to as the "father of prohormones", and I don't know why anyone would call it such since it isn't a prohormone.
"Risk of shutdown" seems to be a common theme in your posts. Shutdown is not a risk when using compounds of this nature; it's a fact. It will happen. If one is afraid of shutdown, then one shouldn't use steroids.
Any compound can cause gyno, whether it occurs on cycle, post cycle or months later. Yes, even Epistane. Every individual body responds differently to hormones, and every compound has contributed to gyno in someone. That's why smart users take every precaution to control estrogen and prolactin and avoid gyno, no matter the compound they're using. The common wisdom is that no matter how careful you are, if you mess with steroids long enough you will end up with some degree of gyno. Not everyone will get it, but everyone should be prepared for it. This is also why I dislike when you refer to certain steroids, such as Epi and other DHT derivatives, as anti-estrogens, which is also a common theme in your posts.
01-27-2014, 01:30 PM
Firstly I have not claimed that ANY DHT derived prohormone is a proven Anti Estrogen. The only compound I EVER said worked as an Anti Estrogen was Epistane which I said I was hypothesising works as an anti E not claiming to be absolute truth - and I have based that on my own vast experience with Epistane and what many steroid profiles and users have claimed - I also acknowledged that methylation may have reduced the original Japanese Parent compound's anti-E characteristics - I have said it is ultimately there to be disagreed with or refuted and again not ABSOLUTE FACT - just a HYPOTHESIS - which means POSSIBILITY which is there to proven wrong or proven right - since you have not been able to provide any factual chemistry to suggest that it isn't anti estrogenic or any evidence at all for that matter - then my hypothesis still stands there until you or somebody else can adequately challenge it - if you can successfully do that then I wouldn't be butthurt either - I'd appreciate somebody finally being able to clear it up!
The truth about Epistane is that I don't think anybody can really prove it either way - some say it can offset SHGB and cause gyno and that it lacks strong DHT breakdown to combat estrogenic sides then the same people claim it is an aromitise inhibitor and selectively targets breast tissue - thus helping prevent gyno (which has happened in many cases)..... until somebody can prove either way I am going to conclude that it gives ME anti estrogenic effects under certain conditions (I havent tried stacking it for example with an aromitising compound and never will).
In fact I sell Epi all the time here in the UK and tell people each time that there are no guarantees with it - I say it works very well for me at keeping me dry and exhibits many anti estrogenic traits and has reversed gyno in some users I know - but I cant 100% guarantee that it will personally keep you protected or prevent other compounds you stack it with having a negative effect..... at no point do I say "yeah bro its a proven aromitise inhibitor - youre safe bro" - I tell them the the truth - that it is in a grey area where nobody seems to be able to fully explain how it works or how it doesn't at all for some people! - This is where I completely agree with your "hormones effect people differently" point - I preach this daily sometimes hourly - genetics, diet, lifestyle and combination of different compounds/drugs are all variables that may impact on how we turn out during or after using this stuff - I know this and explain this. I am careful whenever I sell a prohormone or designer 'supplement' to anybody I make sure I have researched it and I am careful and mindful of who I sell it to and how I advise them to use it. From a moral point I am not happy with advising people on something without knowing the risks and being able to explain them - I train at the same gyms as many of these people and my reputation is important to me - so I like to see them progress and not kill themselves !
As for DHT as an anti estrogen a strong DHT like Proviron can reduce estrogen production and block estrogen - not necessarily eradicate it - I never said DHT would certainly prevent gyno or work as a STRONG anti E - but adding a DHT based compound can work to counter balance estrogenic efects of other compounds - so long as that DHT based compound doesn't aggravate progesterone receptors etc and actually creates a strong level of DHT after conversion.
In fact if we take Proviron for example - it lowers SHBG which helps prevent estrogen from forming (which may be beneficial to put with steroids that bind to SHGB causing estrogenic effects). Also like a SERM, DHT binds (albeit weakly and temporarily) to estrogen receptors - thus blocking estrogen from having its influence on those receptors. Why is it that men who use anti balding chemicals are at greater risk of gyno? Because those chemicals aim to reduce DHT to prevent accelerated balding - thus when DHT is reduced, our protection against estrogen is reduced.
Now to what extent that DHT or DHT based compounds can offer protection or reduce estrogen I have not claimed to know or advised and I have never at any point said that DHT would be safer than the use of an AI or the likes for illiminating estrogen or estrogenic effects.....IN FACT you will have seen me ASKING people how much protection or suppression of estrogen some of these DHT based compounds can offer - Clearly I am considering the possibility that a DHT derived compound may still need some AntiE protection with it - that therefore shows I am not claiming DHT to be an all out powerful anti estrogen at all.........BUT if you do your research you will find that DHT is an anti estrogen or at least anti estrogenic - just may be a weak one in comparison to typical AIs, SERMS. I think it is still very necessary to understand what DHT compounds can do during a cycle in order to be aware of what factors are effecting estrogen during a cycle - that's just being thorough and sensible.
P-5-P is anti estrogenic, certain vitamins and minerals are anti estrogenic as are certain oils, saw palmetto has been argued to be an anti E - would I run those to prevent gyno ???? No....
With all that said there is a risk of being too cautious and reducing estrogen in such a way that you risk killing gains, hurting joints and causing rebound - which is why I have always wanted to establish how strong some certain DHT derived compounds can be before I decide to add strong anti estrogens like Adex or letro - I added an AI a couple of times to DHT derived compounds due to being paranoid about gyno and got NO GAINS in the past - wasted 5 weeks of risk on my body for zero benefit. Part of being cautious and "doing everything necessary to prevent gyno" as you have said in one way or another - is in fact making sure you do not go too aggressive at estrogen and that you understand whether an AI or the likes of is REALLY necessary or actually sensible to use with certain compounds. For me - If I run Epistane with ANY compound that does not aromitise, raise SHGB or stimulate the Prog receptor I know for me AIs are a BAD move .... would you like me to scare people into looking for perscription breast cancer drugs or buying up all the 6 bromo on the shelves to use for EVERY cycle that anybody considers???? When you use AIs like letro or Adex you can risk just delaying a rebound or cause one, SERMs like Nolva will increase test and allow that test to convert to estrogen - leaving estrogen potentially high - leading to a potential rebound - one advantage of Proviron/DHT in reducing estrogen is that it is unlikely to cause a rebound which is why alot of bodybuilders like it along with putting up their sex drive. Again not saying its gonna fully protect you or that it is the bees knees - just pointing out it is worth knowing how DHT can work....
I have actually had VERY bad gyno in the past - nothing to do with anabolics since I had not used a single one at that point - since then I have never even had a flare up once after 5 years of using compounds - so I don't think my strategies have been reckless or inadvisable considering I am clearly susceptible to gyno having gotten it BAD in both sides without even putting anything in me that shouldnt be there.
You probably know this, but gyno can be caused not just by estrogen, but also IGF and other pathways - as for prolactin (that is not an estrogen) it is a protein secreted by the hypothalamus and the most common cause of its secretion is actually stress. Progesterone is not an estrogen either its is a progestogen. Yes these can aggravate gyno - but it has been suggested many times that both of these require high levels of estrogen to be present to cause that to happen - high prolactin or progestorne levels alone are said to not be enough to cause this. - I do not know HOW TRUE that is because I am not a medical doctor, but I have read it a few times now and would have to see blood work from people or adequate research papers to confirm or refute those claims. I have used a couple of compounds that are SUPPOSED to stimulate the progesterone receptor - but I never got gyno (I stacked both times with epistane) - not saying it was necessarily the epi that prevented it - just that it may support that hypothesis that progesterone stimulation alone is not enough to cause gyno
Secondly - shut down is different to suppression - not all compounds or dosages will shut people down, it depends greatly on dosage and length of cycle. Some things might cause LH and FSH to drop more quickly than others. If shut down occurred after EVERY compound at ANY dose or CYCLE LENGTH then I wouldnt be training and my mrs would be a very unhappy unsatisfied lady and I would have relied WAY more on SERMS and HCG than I have done to keep strength and gains and sex drive Post cycle. Admittedly I have not used any of these harsher compounds so I cannot say that I wouldn't experience shut down on them - but not everybody complains about feeling shut down or suppressed on these given that their cycles were sensible - not saying that strong PCT is not required, but I think sometimes people push strong perscription drugs onto people when they are not necessarily needed for every type of cycle out there. Clearly certain compounds have higher levels of suppression and higher risks of shutting you down than others and some therefore require more rigorous levels of PCT than others you shouldn't criticise me for being concerned about what compounds are more likely to do that or not. And actually I only referred to the term 'SHUT DOWN' once - in this post and that was quoting how users on higher doses on one of these compounds FELT. Any other time I have only referred to not wanting to go for compounds that are more suppressive than the milder pro hormones - that's not an unreasonable issue to raise when I am asking for recommendations for compounds that would meet my goals ..........
As for M1T not being a pro hormone - no technically its a designer steroid that doesnt need conversion (much like a bunch of other designers that are still classed as prohormones: SD; Mechabol; Epi and loads more) - its not a dimethyl either although you will see it legally being sold where I am as A PROHORMONE. Because it is contained in every prohormone database out there, sold as a prohormone, lines the shelves in the prohormone sections - thats how the average consumer sees it - so thats why people categorise it as such. Lets be honest all of these designers whether they require conversion or not all form some kind of anabolic steroid..... so that is ultimately how we should treat them all in my opinion - but thats not how the industry works sadly.
And whether you or me agree with these people or not - many people call it the daddy of prohormones - I hear that kind of comment or ones along that line all the time - its not what I call it - I never claimed that, I've never used it or sold it to anybody - its just what I hear out of people who often shun designer steroids that unless its M1T or SD its 'lame' compared to real gear and not worth using........... that was a quote not my own words.
"Your Clothes....................... ...Give them to me" - The Legend: T1
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