Another GW501516 Thread

[HIT4ME]

Alright, so I've known about this substance for a couple years but never heard too much about it until recently and have been researching for the past couple weeks. What I don't see in my research is specific results. I realize that results vary for everyone, but everyone says this is such a great fat burner and the best out there, but nobody says HOW good it is. With DNP a lot of people will tell you that you could lose up to a pound of fat in a day, and easily a half pound - is there any info out there to give an idea of what to expect with GW501516?

Also, this seems like a wonder drug with NO side effects while you use the product. I am aware that it may turn fast twitch muscles to slow twitch (which may have some drawbacks in my eyes) and then there is the obvious cancer issue.

So, my questions are this:

1. What do you guys think about the slow-twitch muscle fiber conversion? Is this something that may effect performance long-run? Any research to tell the degree of this effect or at least allow for an educated guess?

2. It seems that people fall into 2 categories with the cancer topic - the first being "Oh please. Those studies are completely flawed. Don't even think about it!" or the later being, "Cancer- I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole." What are your thoughts and WHY do you think this? Studies would be greatly appreciated.

My major concern here, which was mentioned on another thread, is that this drug SEEMS so promising and GSK spent YEARS researching this and then abandoned it. It isn't like they got a single study that suggested cancer and then said, "Oh, wait, no way. Forget this." Their first study suggesting cancer seemed to come around 2002-2003 and they pushed forward with it even when people were starting to wonder. It seems they WANTED to bring this to market, and then in 2008 they just abandoned it after more cancer data. I realize that they may have realized that the perception of the product causing cancer may be too much to overcome, and perhaps there were other business issues at hand - maybe they had gone beyond budget and GSK saw greater returns in another area of research, or maybe they have another drug that does the same thing that seems more promising, etc. Who knows - but it still raises a red flag, especially since they persevered for about 5 years after people started worrying about cancer....

Finally, anyone ever run this with DNP or would this be stupid? Well, I know it would be perceived as stupid by many anyway ...but you know what I'm getting at. I'm thinking it could be a very potent combo, or maybe they would be good to use back-to-back. i.e. DNP for 2 weeks and then GW for 2 weeks, etc. - allowing for longer cycles with reduced risk.

I've been thinking of running a DNP cycle at some point in time - but I would try to manage my risks and would be running 200 mg for my first cycle with no bumps, and then 200 mg/400 mg for my second cycle and I don't ever see a need to go beyond 400 mg because I can be patient about the fat loss - but I just don't want to be. I have about 80 pounds of fat to lose at this point and these drugs would obviously speed up progress and they really would provide the most bang for the buck over supplements...

 

[AlexPowell]

well it cause cancer in rats, we are not rats
does this mean it causes cancer in people? well there is no way of knowing, it's pointless to speculate

it's up to you really, if you decide to go through with this stick to just one product
I think the money can be spent on better things though

 

[Wilko]

Regarding the cancer, the dosages need to be stated. I see suggested use on most boards as around 5-20mg a day. In those studies they had anywhere from 5mg-40mg/kg on the rats. I don't recall specifically which dosage groups were the cancer-riddled ones, or even if it was contained to a specific group, but that means for a guy around 200lbs the dosage would be anywhere from 450mg(5mg/kg) to 3600mg(40mg/kg).

Who might get cancer first, the fella who smokes 5 cigarettes a day or the fella who smokes several hundred, or even several thousand?

Of course, I haven't seen any studies regarding human trials so nothing is 100%. All I've encountered are anecdotal reports and thus far everyone seems to either lose a bit of bodyfat and gain some cardio or see nothing at all, though I suspect this might be supplier-dependent.

Just my two cents, amigo.

Edit: See also "http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/240751-help-me-gw.html"

 

[HIT4ME]

Thanks for taking the time to answer guys. My concern isn't necessarily the cancer in rats at high doses. From what I've seen, it looks like they refer to it causing cancer "at all doses", which I don't know which doses they used because I haven't seen the full articles and haven't had enough time to research. I'd like to find some studies that showed lower doses haven't caused cancer...or something along those lines.

My big concern is that a pharm company that once stuck to their guns on this product in light of the cancer findings turned around and abandoned it after spending money on the research. I find that to be a big red flag and wonder what they found, I suspect it was more than a casual link to cancer in mice.

Alex, what other products do you think would be better to spend money on? My feeling is that DNP will provide the best bang for the buck, although it is definitely a dangerous route that requires knowledge. None of the supplements on the market, in my eyes, would even come close to the results. Sodium Usniate/Usnea were effective and I can find that in bulk, but I feel that DNP will be more effective and have fewer side effects long term, provided I don't kill myself...I had used Lipokinetix way back in the day with no noticeable sides and it worked great, but I'm older and the liver thing is always a concern....

 

[HIT4ME]

Just found this that I thought would be interesting, not specific to GW 50156, but to the class of drugs:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/CDER/ucm119071.pdf

 

[HIT4ME]

Another similar powerpoint presentation: http://lecorpdocs.le-corp.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ALL ARTICLES/El-Hage PPAR Slideshow.pdf

 

[Wilko]

Again, they don't seem to say much besides "Cancer definitely happened at some point." We're a scientific people... give us specific data. How long into the study? At what dose? How many rats that completed the trial without incident? I can certainly appreciate the grim nature of that degree of cancer occurrence, though.

 

[HIT4ME]

I agree with this, and that is kind of the nature of this thread - I want more data so that I can make an educated decision. For instance, DNP has dangers and risks, but the data is there so that you can get a good handle on those risks, how to manage them, etc. We are scientific, but without the data we are kind of shooting in the dark. And given the fact that GSK dumped a TON of cash into this project over 10-15 years and tried to get it through even in light of the cancer topic, they suddenly dropped it without real explanation in 2008. Shooting in the dark, with little data and the risk of becoming "riddled with cancer at all doses" seems (obviously) not worth it, but it smacks of the typical fear mongering with new substances. I would love to see some data that gave better insight.

Within that information is a comment that the action of these drugs is 10-1,000X stronger in humans than in rats. This suggests the reason why 20 mg has such an effect on humans, and why they were giving the larger doses to rats. It also suggests 1 of two possible scenarios to me - 1 is that ALL of the effects are 10-1,000X stronger and the "Oh yeah the rats got cancer but they were taking the equivalent of 500-1,000 mg of this stuff for a human" argument is completely flawed, because the cancer effects could occur at a much smaller dose.

The second scenario is that the PPAR effects ONLY are stronger, and the drug is thus MUCH safer for humans because the effective dose is 1/10th - 1/1,000th of what it would take to cause cancer in a rat.

So this little tidbit could suggest it is MORE dangerous, or much safer for a human. Since GSK dropped it and it never made it to stage III, I think it only wise to lean towards the dangerous conclusion...

 

[fueledpassion]

Regarding the cancer, the dosages need to be stated. I see suggested use on most boards as around 5-20mg a day. In those studies they had anywhere from 5mg-40mg/kg on the rats. I don't recall specifically which dosage groups were the cancer-riddled ones, or even if it was contained to a specific group, but that means for a guy around 200lbs the dosage would be anywhere from 450mg(5mg/kg) to 3600mg(40mg/kg).

Who might get cancer first, the fella who smokes 5 cigarettes a day or the fella who smokes several hundred, or even several thousand?

Of course, I haven't seen any studies regarding human trials so nothing is 100%. All I've encountered are anecdotal reports and thus far everyone seems to either lose a bit of bodyfat and gain some cardio or see nothing at all, though I suspect this might be supplier-dependent.

Just my two cents, amigo.

Edit: See also "http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/240751-help-me-gw.html"

Regarding the mg/kg argument, the math doesnt directly translate over to humans like that. I dont remember the math exactly (google can tell u), but I do know that humans take in far less mg of stuff compared to rats to get similar results. 5-20mg/day just might be the exact comparative doses to what those rats took in.

 

[HIT4ME]

Thanks fueled, and you are 100% correct. There is a formula, but all you ever see on the boards is "the rats took an equivalent of 500 mg" - but never see the actual dose so I don't know if that is before body surface area conversions and proper calculations, or just straight math. It could be that someone did the math and said, "Yeah, that is the equiv. of a human taking 500 mg." or it could be that they just said, "The rat weighs 30 grams and took X amount" and multiplied (which is incorrect).

Either way, it looks like the effects may be 10-1000 fold stronger in humans at the equivalent dose! So if you did the math properly and determined that it was equivelant to 500 mg, then you would need to account for the strength increase in humans, and you'd be looking at a max dose of 50 mg for the same effects...and then the question is, would these same effects be limited to just the positive effects, or would they be across the board?

 

[Big Gains]

GW (PPar modulator) does not potentiate tumorigemesis in humans the way it does in rats. Here is some info I dug up.

Ligands for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-β/δ (PPARβ/δ) increase skeletal muscle fatty acid catabolism, improve insulin sensitivity, increase serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, elicit anti-inflammatory activity and induce terminal differentiation. Contradictory findings are also reported suggesting that PPARβ/δ ligands potentiate tumorigenesis by increasing cell proliferation, by inhibiting apoptosis through phosphorylation of Akt and by increasing cyclooxygenase-2 (COX2) and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) expression. The contradictory findings could be due to differences in the model system (cancer cell line versus in vivo), differences in cell culture conditions (with and without serum) or differences in ligands. The present study examined the effect of two different PPARβ/δ ligands (GW0742 and GW501516) in human cancer cell lines (HT29, HCT116, LS–174T, HepG2 and HuH7) cultured in the presence or absence of serum and compared in vitro analysis with in vivo analysis. Neither PPARβ/δ ligand increased cell growth or phosphorylation of Akt and no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARβ/δ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers. Results from these studies demonstrate that serum withdrawal and/or differences in ligands do not underlie the disparity in responses reported in the literature. The quantitative nature of the present findings are inconsistent with the hypothesis that cancer cell lines respond differentially as compared with normal cells, and provide further evidence that PPARβ/δ ligands do not potentiate tumorigenesis.

 

[Wilko]

Might we get the source for this material? I've not seen that text on any board whatsoever, which is curious considering how directly relevant to this discussion it is.

 

[Wilko]

yeah, tamoxifen causes liver cancer in rats, but not in humans. could be the same kind of thing idk.

Understanding the genotoxicity of tamoxifen?

and here is the rat to human dosing formula
"So if it's a study that used mice, you have to take the dose used – in mg/kg/day – and first multiply it by 3 and then divide the result by 37. A short cut is to divide the dose by 12.3. For rats you have to divide by 6.2."

Found an interesting animal study? Here's how you calculate the human dosage

and
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/Guidances/UCM078932.pdf

Have never encountered that before. Interesting. Would rep if I could, big guy.

 

[HIT4ME]

I understand completely that some things cause cancer in rats that don't in humans, but some things cause cancer in rats AND humans. I would love SOME evidence to make a judgement on GW from this perspective.

The fact that Nolvadex doesn't cause cancer in humans but does in rats does NOT mean you can apply the logic of "things that cause cancer in rats don't in humans", it means it might not. It means we have no definitive data.

What the FDA site warns on is that ALL of this class of drugs caused cancer in rats, across a wide spectrum of tissue, and this means that the likelihood in humans is very good. So if anything, the data leans toward cancer, and we need some specific data to skew it back - but that may not be out there at all...I'm not sure it is. And if everything leans toward problems, the objective, intelligent thing to decide, despite me wanting this stuff to be safe and effective (trust me I do), is that it really can cause problems...

 

[HIT4ME]

I like being the devils advocate with you RH - you find some good stuff. I am going to look at this when I get some time later today.

And yes - the FDA is a strange entity. Their approval or disapproval in my eyes isn't the deciding factor, as many of their approved drugs are worse than drugs they haven't approved and their are a lot of politics involved - but when they fight something their controllers (pharma companies) have spent money on, it raises questions.

 

[wotdlois]

Hey guys

This is my first post - I have been looking into GW for the past couple days and signed up just to read this thread, as it is the most recent on any of the forums out there. I was hoping to stumble upon some unknown study that would throw some more favorable light on the subject of GW. Its funny I was actually thinking, "well if i was an investigative reporter how would I get my story?" The story here or the one that is being withheld is why did GSK stop the trials? The US headquarters is in Parsippany NJ which is about 15 min from me, maybe I can walk in an ask? :0 I came across this which was interesting:
http: //www .gsk-clinicalstudyregister.com/compounds/gw501516#ps They give a telephone number to the left of the clickable studies for more info - perhaps someone would like to do some investigative reporting of their own? When you nail down on the studies in the link provided, it gives myriad of study parameters and some interesting outcomes one of which is safety. I have yet to come across this particular data group so wanted to share it with you. Ill let you guys sift through it and reply back. For the record this looks very interesting to me as a cyclist but as I get older 33, which is not that old, i find myself less willing to try "risky" sups that 10 years ago would have been a no brainer for me. I am such a hypochondriac now that i am not even sure I could take it and feel comfortable knowing the cancer risk. I am reminded of the Seinfeld where George thinks he has cancer...is it cancer is it cancer!!

 

[resrch3d]

GW0742 what does anyone know on this compound? I wasnt sure if it be necessary to start anew thread for this since it's related and similar to cardarine. I may run it, curious to know opinions. I have read studies but I'd like to get more info if it's out there.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Have you ever thought of trying S4?

 

[resrch3d]

Have you ever thought of trying S4?

Yeah, i didnt like idea of the vision side effects.

I'm currebtly running gw-501516, I ran short and the supplier I like to stick with is out. So my options are try gw0742 or hope they restock so i dont cause too long of a break in my caradarine.

 

[netflixNchill]

They aren't that bad if you keep dosing moderate and they stop immediately after experiment ends

 

[yates84]

Did the op really 5 star rate his own thread?!

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Just stumbled across these two links, regarding GW:

http://theconversation.com/anti-doping-agency-warns-cheats-on-the-health-risks-of-endurobol-12997


https://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/CDER/ucm119071.pdf

So one of the risks associated with GW may be cardiac hypertrophy and subsequent elevated risk of cardiac arrest.

Edit: LOAEL (lowest observed adverse effect level) over 12-16wk duration (the shortest interval listed) is 20mg/day. Maybe ok if you keep it at 15mg/day?

 

[yates84]

The only real risk with gw is some hypoglycemic side effects for some users. Fat loss via ppar action and cancer risk are both very overrated and far fetched. About the only thing gw is good for in the real world is blood pressure regulation. It's good for the lipids as well but cellular proliferation kind of negates that effect. My opinion is gw is stupid.

 

[resrch3d]

The only real risk with gw is some hypoglycemic side effects for some users. Fat loss via ppar action and cancer risk are both very overrated and far fetched. About the only thing gw is good for in the real world is blood pressure regulation. It's good for the lipids as well but cellular proliferation kind of negates that effect. My opinion is gw is stupid.

For me GW gives a significant boost in muscular endurance. I started taking it while getting back to working out after a seriosuly long break. First go to seemed to help with the cardio I was trying to do more of. I tracked my run times and once i stopped gw, my same workouts got progressively more difficult. I noticed that while I could stay very low on Cal's before and my strength would stay up, with no gw - and with out increasing Cal's my strength diminished.

I have been following a routine more revolved around heavy lifting during the start of gw amd moving into a high rep now. This stuff imho for me has helped, my strength and endurance took a huge drive upward. The weight I was pushing for low reps I have been able to now push for higher reps and same set amounts - I can honestly say I don't think I'd be able to do what I have done if I was not using the gw...Basing this off of what experience I have with running it.

I will add that I have been dosing some itpp this go, didnt start that till more recently, was still seeing all i saw with gw on its owm before. Now its just even better, been a great combo so far

 

[resrch3d]

I may have to start a thread for this GW0742. It's effects are more pronounced than its predecessor and I legit feel slightly more so as though I could keep pushing my work outs.

As far as running, on my third day of GW0742 I ran a tenth of a mile further than day one with no GW and cut 10 seconds off my time with 28 second decrease in my pace per mile. The running conditions on the first day with out the new GW - perfect conditions with humidity being right where you want it and like 72 degrees out. This run that I decreased my time on humidity and temperature were at a high for the week and it was not comfortable to run in but still made almost immediate progress...So far I'm liking it.

No hypoglycemia with this like with the 501516 so def sticking with this one.

 

[HIT4ME]

Did the op really 5 star rate his own thread?!

LMAO - I don't know. Didn't even know I could rate threads....so if I did, it was done so unknowingly. But no big, this thread is pretty friggin' awesome.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

I may have to start a thread for this GW0742. It's effects are more pronounced than its predecessor and I legit feel slightly more so as though I could keep pushing my work outs.

As far as running, on my third day of GW0742 I ran a tenth of a mile further than day one with no GW and cut 10 seconds off my time with 28 second decrease in my pace per mile. The running conditions on the first day with out the new GW - perfect conditions with humidity being right where you want it and like 72 degrees out. This run that I decreased my time on humidity and temperature were at a high for the week and it was not comfortable to run in but still made almost immediate progress...So far I'm liking it.

No hypoglycemia with this like with the 501516 so def sticking with this one.

Never heard of GW0742, would like to know more. Thanks.

 

[resrch3d]

Never heard of GW0742, would like to know more. Thanks.

There is rather latent information that is out there, most of it is in research paper documentations. So I have had to skim to find what it's usefulness is as far as my needs are, when compared to GW-501516. Main thing I get from reading and supplier of the product - less side effects and or chances of, as well as more pronounced effects and results in what the overall chemical performs at doing.

It's a PPARδ/β agonist just like GW-501516 researched by the same company,GSMK. The idea with both chemicals is the benefits for aerobic and anerobic activity come from the changes in the bodies nuclear hormone receptor which induces changes in the bodies biological factors. One such chang being a shift in the body's fuel preference from glucose to lipids.

Since there are various factors that GW can effect with its activates signaling at a DNA based level, there can be a lot of benefits. I certainly noticed when I switched from 501516 to 0742.

 

[Pyroprone]

Dragging this thread back up. Signed up just to do so lol. So about it making you switch from glucose to lipids for fuel does that mean your body is basically in ketosis when you take this?

 

[Chados]

It doesn't cause cancer in rats either and there are no studies saying that.

Gw is good for energy and for cholesterol it's amazing. Its not an amazing fat burner

 

[jsbrook]

What dose of GW0742 did you run, rsrch3d? I've used 501516 with good results. Did you run the same dose with 0742 as you have with GW501516?

 

[Old Witch]

Firstly, cardarine is not a direct fat burner like DNP. It can't really do much in that regard, unless your body burns fat from cardio like a furnace naturally. That's why some say yes and some say no. Secondly, the human equivalent dose for what "caused cancer" in rats is 30mg daily, and in mice it was 50mg. The length of time was also extremely long, making up a large portion of the mice and rats lives, a human would have to take it for 20 years or more to even come close. Finally, there is no data to support the idea that it CAUSES cancer, but much like GH it sped up the growth of cancer. That idea was then contorted into "GW501516 is a carcinogen" (it isn't)

The effect of the drug is more of an on or off thing and less on a scale, a simple 5,10, or 15mg daily dose is sufficiently stimulant to cause the BP decrease, cholesterol decrease, and endurance increase.

You can take it indefinitely.

 

[Old Witch]

Just consider it to have the same cancer risk as Human Growth Hormone.

 

[resrch3d]

What dose of GW0742 did you run, rsrch3d? I've used 501516 with good results. Did you run the same dose with 0742 as you have with GW501516?

@jsbrook - this is a very late reply but yes I did same dosing protocols.

The only thing that scares me from using these compounds again is that when I took a break for about 6 months or so; I had experienced a drop in white blood cell count by 50%. During that time I had also experienced some other non life threatening health issues that I don't believe were related to either version of cardarine. The health issues were still out of place for me because I was generally over all on great health.

I stopped taking so many risks after all this and stopped using almost all compounds for a while.

Currently I only take creatine mono, protein, and peak02.
Good luck with whatever you choose.