whats best for bringing sex drive back up post cycle?

[OmarJackson]

in 3 weeks i'm going to be finishing up a pretty intense 6-week cycle of 1-AD. Currently (half-way) libido is pretty down in the dumps and probably only gonna get worse. My main concern in coming off cycle is to get libido back on ASAP. I already have nolva for my PCT, to deal with estro and stop endo test inhibition but i want something extra for libido.

after reading reviews for several products i came to the conclusion that i want to either go with vitrix (a trib product) or 6-oxo.

so which one is better solelyfor the purpose of bringing libido back up?

and please don't come with the 4-ad on cycle, i don't care about libido on cycle and its too late anyway.

 

[Swole]

After my first 1-AD/4-AD oral PH cycle I used Nolva, 6-OXO, trib and ZMA for PCT. My sex drive did not take any dive whatsoever. I would definitely recommend getting some 6-OXO and use at least 2g of trib daily.

 

[Jarconis]

at this point, id just stick with the nolva and get ahold of some viagra or something really...

 

[oldfart]

Vitrix and time

 

[milwood]

lozgod's avatar

 

[OmarJackson]

at this point, id just stick with the nolva and get ahold of some viagra or something really...

what do you mean "at this point" its not like i'm completly shut down or anything.

 

[artica]

since I started using formastane during cycle, my post cycle recovery has become easier than taking a ****.

Seriously, I use moleculars brand and that stuff works great for on cycle use.

 

[fairplay101]

Go for the Nolva and run Trib alongside too. Even add some Horny Goat weed as it's well cheap

 

[NUMBNUTS]

isn't clomid good for this also.

my PCT is nolva, clomid and trib

 

[BigCasino]

I suggest one or two of the following, NOT all of them ;-) :

Muscle Jack
Nutrex Vitrix
Protein Factory Unleashed
Protein Factory Post-Cycle
6-OXO
SAN Endo Test

 

[blank!]

lots of horror stories out there of guys who did 1-ad only cycles and took months to get libido back. the ones who used 4-ad in conjunction fair much better overall, but like you said it's too late for that. i personally cant imagine facing the lethargy without it - even with it i was pretty wasted.

you say you arent concerned with libido drop on cycle - THAT's fine. but you also say "so which one is better solely for the purpose of bringing libido back up?" and that i have a problem with. you should be doing your best to bring TEST back up - libido will follow close behind. THINK TEST! that's why it dropped, and that's what will bring it back. things like tribulus and long jack will help you get it up, but they will also deceive you into thinking you are recovered.
get some clomid. it is the **** for restoring test production. 6OXO also seems to be a worthwhile product.

 

[OmarJackson]

lots of horror stories out there of guys who did 1-ad only cycles and took months to get libido back. the ones who used 4-ad in conjunction fair much better overall, but like you said it's too late for that. i personally cant imagine facing the lethargy without it - even with it i was pretty wasted.

you say you arent concerned with libido drop on cycle - THAT's fine. but you also say "so which one is better solely for the purpose of bringing libido back up?" and that i have a problem with. you should be doing your best to bring TEST back up - libido will follow close behind. THINK TEST! that's why it dropped, and that's what will bring it back. things like tribulus and long jack will help you get it up, but they will also deceive you into thinking you are recovered.
get some clomid. it is the **** for restoring test production. 6OXO also seems to be a worthwhile product.

i cut my cycle short and i'm taking nolva and trib, zinc and mag. I believe in some cases test returns back to normal (proof in bloodwork) but libido remains suppressed for a long time after, through some other mechanism - thats why my question was geared towards libido.

its been 4 days since i stopped and i'm actually stronger, even on reduced calories, cuz i'm not as tired anymore and CEE rocks (my conclusion) or maybe that i still have 1-test circulating. how long does it take 1-ad to completly leave the system after cessation? anyone know.

 

[Boss_K]

I can tell you that there is no 1-test circulating....your just gonna have to wait it out and dont worry your libido will come back. have you had your bloodwork done to show your test is at normal levels? If your doing pct and have bloodwork done your test could be elevated because of all the ancilliaries. Good luck bro.

 

[Boss_K]

Oh wait, I see you only stopped 4 days ago...at this point there could be some 1test still cirulating, I thouhgt you stopped 3 weeks ago....

 

[OmarJackson]

Oh wait, I see you only stopped 4 days ago...at this point there could be some 1test still cirulating, I thouhgt you stopped 3 weeks ago....

damn, you raised my hopes up and then shot em down. :sad:

i'm not too worried though, i doubt 1-test is still circulating. there is a reason 1-ad is reccommend to be dosed 3x a day - short activity.

the only other nagging thing is that i read that nolva isn't quite as good as clomid at stimulating LH, especially with short term usage

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

nolva not being as good as clomid seems to be a matter of opinion. I have done both and cant really notice the diffence. trib, zma and time will bring it back.

 

[LakeMountD]

I am on pct now and i can honestly say the nolva and 2.5 grams of trib a day are really kicking ass. There was never really a drop in sex drive so I cant really complain too much. I am also taking zma.

 

[blank!]

nolva not being as good as clomid seems to be a matter of opinion. I have done both and cant really notice the diffence. trib, zma and time will bring it back.

clomid has been shown in controlled studies to stimulate HPTA more effectively than nolva. AAS users almost all recognize this and hit clomid for 300mg or so for several days immediately after cycle end, but i've never seen anyone megadose nolva for this purpose. 40mg is the standard PCT even on the longest gear cycles.

omar - 4 days after stopping and you will still be suppressed. come back in a week or two and tell us how you are. i still say focus on test and libido will follow - but now i'm curious about the bloodwork you mentioned....some guys actually had test recover (that is, had it tested pre and post-cycle) but had lagging libido?

 

[fairplay101]

Where are those controlled studies then Blank? Cos I've heard completely the opposite! Nolva and Clomid essentially work the same way, Nolva is just stronger mg per mg! Neither directly stimulate LH, they both suppress estrogen in different methods which helps the body stimulate LH

 

[OmarJackson]

omar - 4 days after stopping and you will still be suppressed. come back in a week or two and tell us how you are. i still say focus on test and libido will follow - but now i'm curious about the bloodwork you mentioned....some guys actually had test recover (that is, had it tested pre and post-cycle) but had lagging libido?

not me personally, but there is at least two situations i can think off (over at BB.com....ugh) were the user reported still suffering from low libido loooooooong after he finished his 1-ad cycle. admittedly he did no pct, but it was like a year later and he had his test checked and it was normal range. (no mention of pre-cycle test levels)

 

[rrgg]

This is a dumb question I think... but is it possible that Omar's friend take a SERM and still boost his test even though his cycle was finished quite a while ago?

 

[blank!]

not me personally, but there is at least two situations i can think off (over at BB.com....ugh) were the user reported still suffering from low libido loooooooong after he finished his 1-ad cycle. admittedly he did no pct, but it was like a year later and he had his test checked and it was normal range. (no mention of pre-cycle test levels)

the range of normal testosterone is huge. you could have 3 times as much as the next guy and the doc would call you both "normal" so without a pre-cycle test, this is inconclusive.

fairplay i will look for those studies - you can start with this:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=140200

lots of other discussions/studies/opinions in there too

 

[THE GREATEST]

vitrix at double the recomended dosage and regular zinc that you can get anywhere will do the trick

 

[BigCasino]

vitrix at double the recomended dosage and regular zinc that you can get anywhere will do the trick

A bottle of Nutrex Vitrix lasts ~15 days I believe at the reccomended dosage (6 caps a day). Doubling that to twelve would mean a bottle that retails for around $25-30 would last less than 8 days. Hardly cost effective. There has got to be a better way :think:

 

[Dwight Schrute]

clomid has been shown in controlled studies to stimulate HPTA more effectively than nolva. AAS users almost all recognize this and hit clomid for 300mg or so for several days immediately after cycle end, but i've never seen anyone megadose nolva for this purpose. 40mg is the standard PCT even on the longest gear cycles.

No it hasn't. The opposite is true.

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30


"To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation."

 

[Dwight Schrute]

the range of normal testosterone is huge. you could have 3 times as much as the next guy and the doc would call you both "normal" so without a pre-cycle test, this is inconclusive.

fairplay i will look for those studies - you can start with this:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=140200

lots of other discussions/studies/opinions in there too

Not really. Normal is between 400-800ng/dl


That thread is full of so many myths I shake my head when I read it.

 

[STFU]

bump on zma. No2 helps with sex drive if your willing to pay the extra bucks.

 

[fairplay101]

Cheers Bobo for those articles on Nolva/Clomid.


Blank - They are the ones I was referring to mate. I have seen others too and will post when I find them. The Clomid comments from many people were unfounded and not true. Nolva is the better PCT SERM.

 

[MassLabKits]

I say go on some tribulus. You shouldn't need anything else. Specifically, try going on Tribex, and go on a 12 capsule/day regime. Trust me. Do 4 capsules, 3 times a day and you'll be blowing loads like a porn star in no time

 

[dzlstatus]

stack the vitrix and 6-oxo. i ran the stack after my last cycle and had great results from it.

 

[OmarJackson]

its been 4 days since i started PCT - doing nolva @ 40mg and vitrix @ 9 caps (1500mg trib) and i'm already popping wood like i was seventeen again.

My PCT is kindof overkill for what my cycle was, but i didn't want to end up like one of those 1-ad horror stories who can't get hard after a year off. Anyway, i think the biggest moral of the story, which i'm glad i learned is:

always have SOME TEST IN ANY cycle, because feeling like a castrate with chronic fatigue syndrome just sucks.

 

[cable626]

well, I'm new, but I'm a member of Xtrememass, and I just heard about this forum. Well some people prefer nolva, and some prefer clomid, but I'm surprised nobody brought this up--WHAT ABOUT BOTH?
I know it sounds kind of stupid, but hey it doesn't hurt to ask and I was wondering if anyone actually has tried this.

 

[LakeMountD]

it has been brought up. bobo has explained it.

 

[Grant]

well, I'm new, but I'm a member of Xtrememass, and I just heard about this forum. Well some people prefer nolva, and some prefer clomid, but I'm surprised nobody brought this up--WHAT ABOUT BOTH?
I know it sounds kind of stupid, but hey it doesn't hurt to ask and I was wondering if anyone actually has tried this.

I bring it up all the time in my posts, do a search with my user name with the key words nolva and clomid. Your a bit young to be using these though, you really should wait.

 

[fairplay101]

Plus using both should not just be done at the drop of a hat! Especially after a methylated cycle. These SERMS are not without their own side effects!!

 

[Grant]

Plus using both should not just be done at the drop of a hat! Especially after a methylated cycle. These SERMS are not without their own side effects!!

Your right, they can be harsh on the liver, keep dosages responsible, especially if you are using two. I have used both and my blood work was in the normal range.

 

[blank!]

No it hasn't. The opposite is true.

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30


"To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation."

bobo - this study apparently used the same dosage for nolva and clomid. without the full text from it i cant tell for sure. the way that they equate the two is what leads me to believe this. conventional BB wisdom says you need 2-4 times as much clomid as nolva. could you find some more details on this study? meanwhile i'll try to find some too.

also - i've run both during PCT in reasonably high dosages and my liver values were fine.

let me reiterate that a hard dick does not mean no suppression. trib is fun but there's very little to support its test stimulation properties.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

bobo - this study apparently used the same dosage for nolva and clomid. without the full text from it i cant tell for sure. the way that they equate the two is what leads me to believe this. conventional BB wisdom says you need 2-4 times as much clomid as nolva. could you find some more details on this study? meanwhile i'll try to find some too.

also - i've run both during PCT in reasonably high dosages and my liver values were fine.

let me reiterate that a hard dick does not mean no suppression. trib is fun but there's very little to support its test stimulation properties.

The dosage isn't the main concern here but the anti-estrogenic properties at the pituitary and hypothalamus and Nolvadex is more directly anti-e at the HTPA. If you increase the dosgage the pharmacology won't change. Nolvadex is more directly anti estrogenic at the HTPA and in turn stimulates LH more directly. There has been numerous discussions about this over at CEM between Nandi and Swale and both conclude Nolvadex is superior (as Swale uses it over Clomid in his clinic much more than Clomid)


The liver issue is really a non issue because those that have problems (a very small %) are females that use it for years on end. The 17-aa hormones people take do much more damage than any SERM will.

 

[cable626]

I stopped my M1T/4-AD cycle, due to:
1- I'm sick
2- My nuts hurt
3- I don't have a pump in the gym because I am too anxious about the PH stack!

So yea, a week into it, then started worrying too much that I won't grow anymore.
You guys think 1 week on can hurt me? I'm starting my PCT tomorrow and hoping for the best.
I am thinking about using the following:
Nolva 20mg ED for week 1, then 10mg ED for week 2
Clomid, 100mg ED week 1, 50mg ED week 2

Milk Thistle and Tribulus everyday also.

 

[Renton405]

Im having the same problem ever since my 1t4ad cycle...I recently added some DHEA to my pct stack and its helping..u could try that...I hear zma is a waste of money

 

[Alpha Dog]

I stopped my M1T/4-AD cycle, due to:
1- I'm sick
2- My nuts hurt
3- I don't have a pump in the gym because I am too anxious about the PH stack!

So yea, a week into it, then started worrying too much that I won't grow anymore.
You guys think 1 week on can hurt me? I'm starting my PCT tomorrow and hoping for the best.
I am thinking about using the following:
Nolva 20mg ED for week 1, then 10mg ED for week 2
Clomid, 100mg ED week 1, 50mg ED week 2

Milk Thistle and Tribulus everyday also.

Good, glad to hear you quit. You are too young. First, please read the forum rules. Second, stay away from all ph's/steriods until you are at least 21 and have reached your genetic potential. Finally, no PCT is necessicary after only one week. Please run a search.

 

[cable626]

No PCT! But M1T definitely shut me down. I noticed a decrease in testicle size.

 

[blank!]

Good, glad to hear you quit. You are too young. First, please read the forum rules. Second, stay away from all ph's/steriods until you are at least 21 and have reached your genetic potential. Finally, no PCT is necessicary after only one week. Please run a search.

terrible advice. M1T shutdown is on the order of 3 days. although HPTA should rebound quickly after only a week of suppression, it will still take time to rebound. 2 weeks of PCT to be on the safe side.

 

[Alpha Dog]

terrible advice. M1T shutdown is on the order of 3 days. although HPTA should rebound quickly after only a week of suppression, it will still take time to rebound. 2 weeks of PCT to be on the safe side.

First, find me a study or someones bloodwork that shows shutdown after three days. Unless you are tremendously genetically predisposed to which, it is not likely.

Second, even if total shutdown did occur (which is a relative term because shutdown technically is not a binary feedback mechanism, it is analog), the last time I checked seven minus three is four. So, you are saying take two weeks of PCT after being shutdown for four days! What is your rationalle? What is involved in this PCT regimen?

And finally, please explain why after a total of four days shutdown (which I will still contend is unlikely) that the PCT regimen you are going to propose will restore your HTPA any more rapidly and safer for an 18 year old kid than allowing it too come back naturally.

Otherwise, you are talking out of your ass.

 

[Grant]

First, find me a study or someones bloodwork that shows shutdown after three days. Unless you are tremendously genetically predisposed to which, it is not likely.

Im going to have to agree with Blank here, look at SS's blood work, in three days he went from 436ng/dl total test to 39ng/dl.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12132

 

[Alpha Dog]

Yes, but that's not the question. I’m not saying it’s not possible that test production is not reduced after three days. The questions are:

1. Can there be any significant testicular atrophy after seven days of exogenous hormone administration?
2. Will LH production not naturally resume immediately following the clearing of exogenous hormones after only seven days?
3. Will the testies not respond to the increase in LH production after supraphysiologial administration or are they desensitized after seven days?
4. Will any PCT regimen (SERMS, anti-estrogens, hcg, etc) restore LH production or testicular sensitivity to LH safely and more effectively than without after seven days for an 18 year old individual?

 

[cable626]

Yes, but that's not the question. I’m not saying it’s not possible that test production is not reduced after three days. The questions are:

1. Can there be any significant testicular atrophy after seven days of exogenous hormone administration?
2. Will LH production not naturally resume immediately following the clearing of exogenous hormones after only seven days?
3. Will the testies not respond to the increase in LH production after supraphysiologial administration or are they desensitized after seven days?
4. Will any PCT regimen (SERMS, anti-estrogens, hcg, etc) restore LH production or testicular sensitivity to LH safely and more effectively than without after seven days for an 18 year old individual?

I understand where all of you are coming from, but since I have tamoxifen and clomid on hand I might as well use it to ensure full recovery. But yes, I know what you are saying bow, esp in point 4, which definitely gets me thinking. is the pct going to do the trick better than my own healthy body recovering on my own...especially being young and natural test levels should be high at this point.

My body knows it has to be at that high test level, but will it get there without PCT is the question.

 

[blank!]

Yes, but that's not the question. I’m not saying it’s not possible that test production is not reduced after three days. The questions are:

1. Can there be any significant testicular atrophy after seven days of exogenous hormone administration?
2. Will LH production not naturally resume immediately following the clearing of exogenous hormones after only seven days?
3. Will the testies not respond to the increase in LH production after supraphysiologial administration or are they desensitized after seven days?
4. Will any PCT regimen (SERMS, anti-estrogens, hcg, etc) restore LH production or testicular sensitivity to LH safely and more effectively than without after seven days for an 18 year old individual?

bow you crack me up. as soon as one of your contentions is disproved, you immediately regard that issue as insignificant. the real issue here is that the burden of proof of the physiological superfluousness of PCT is on the person who is recommending erring on the side that ISN'T safety.

i didnt see the kid was 18. if i had seen that, i would not have responded to this post at all. i cant predict the hormonal response of a person whose hormones are not stabilized.

 

[Grant]

bow you crack me up. as soon as one of your contentions is disproved, you immediately regard that issue as insignificant. the real issue here is that the burden of proof of the physiological superfluousness of PCT is on the person who is recommending erring on the side that ISN'T safety.

i didnt see the kid was 18. if i had seen that, i would not have responded to this post at all. i cant predict the hormonal response of a person whose hormones are not stabilized.

Wow, I agree with Blank again, is the world coming to an end?

 

[ryansm]

Lord I hope not