Testicular Atrophy Nearing End of PCT

[X1D]

Hello all, long time lurker on this board and have basically used this board for constructing all of my cycles and generating steroid knowledge in general. I am 23 years old and just finished my second cycle which consisted of

Test E 400 MG/WK 1-10
Epi-strong week 4-10
HCG 250 IU 2x week 5-10
HCG blast 500 IU from day after last shot till four days before PCT
Arimidex .5MG EOD

PCT: Clomid 1-30
DAA: Day 1-30
Activate Xtreme and triazole starting at day 14 (currently still on)

Anyway, with my first cycle I did not use HCG and my nuts took quite a long time to recover. Nevertheless I've gotten blood work pretty regularly and my normal test levels sit at around 600. This time, I got tested two weeks into PCT just to make sure everything was going correctly. My bloodwork came in at the following:

Total Test: 629
LH: 7.7
FSH: 3.7

I was very pleased with the results. Testicles were rather plump at this time, but about 3/4 the size of what they were at the end of the blast. I thought I was on the way to a smooth recovery. Fast forward about two weeks (5 days before discontinuing clomid) I noticed that my testicles were now about 50% smaller than they were during the blood test. I am now one week off of clomid and they are still rather small and I am feeling a little sluggish in the gym although this could be placebo. Is it neccesary to get tested now to see where I'm at at this point, or would it be useless? I know it's advisable to wait atleast two-three weeks however it is killing me mentally knowing my testicles may have fallen back off. Thanks for any advice

 

[X1D]

bump

 

[WeT.DoLPhiN]

I see no reason not to get a blood test...not only for the peace of mind but this will allow you fix the problem without taking different compounds and making things worse.

 

[jman6]

wait a little longer

 

[X1D]

I see no reason not to get a blood test...not only for the peace of mind but this will allow you fix the problem without taking different compounds and making things worse.

I think I will just to get a sense of where I'm at and like you said for the peace of mind. I just really hope I haven't tanked and I was banking on a smooth transition into recovery. I have a feeling my test levels have dropped some, but I'm more interested to see where my LH FSH and Estrogen levels are. Also, on the last test my e levels were at 25. I am more worried because of the fact that they atrophied before discontinuing clomid which makes no sense to me. I will get tested and report back Friday.

 

[fueledpassion]

You need to consider that u might've desensitized the Leydig cells to LH. This would in turn cause the Leydig cells to shutdown. What was ur Clomid dosing?

You want high T levels and a low LH/FSH level on the bloods. That indicates normal function.

Consider anything that serves as an anti-oxidant to the Leydig cells such as Tocopherols.

 

[X1D]

You need to consider that u might've desensitized the Leydig cells to LH. This would in turn cause the Leydig cells to shutdown. What was ur Clomid dosing?

You want high T levels and a low LH/FSH level on the bloods. That indicates normal function.

Consider anything that serves as an anti-oxidant to the Leydig cells such as Tocopherols.

I also thought that but from everything I've read wouldn't very high doses of HCG be needed in order to cause desensitization? Whenever I've tested in the past test levels were about 600 with LH in the middle of the range. However once I did test with an LH of 30.1. But I believe that may have been error. I dosed the clomid at 50MG every day for 27 days with a slight taper of 25MG a day for three days. If the leydig cells were desensitized wouldn't that cause me to have a normal LH level with a very low test level? I got bloodwork this morning so I should get the results tomorrow. I know I'm still balancing but I'm pretty worried for permanent damage at this point.

 

[X1D]

Sorry fueled, one more question. Isn't it normal for LH to be a little bit high at the beginning of pct because your body is attempting to go from near zero testosterone to baseline? And then once you reach baseline it should lower as it only needs enough to maintain baseline? Or is this false?

 

[tcslick]

You need to consider that u might've desensitized the Leydig cells to LH. This would in turn cause the Leydig cells to shutdown. What was ur Clomid dosing?

You want high T levels and a low LH/FSH level on the bloods. That indicates normal function.

Consider anything that serves as an anti-oxidant to the Leydig cells such as Tocopherols.

My thought also. I don't like to run HCG for longer than a few weeks then wait a few weeks before I run any more.

 

[X1D]

Alright so I went ahead and got the bloodwork done and got the results back today. As expected, test has dropped. New numbers are:

Testosterone: 449
LH: 3.7
FSH: 1.7
Estradiol: 9.6 (7.6-42.6)


I'm not really sure how to interpret these results. LH and FSH both went down quite significantly as well as total testosterone. Being that my estrogen is on the lower end, shouldn't this signal my pituitary to keep the LH high since the negative feedback loop should tell my HPTA that there isn't a lot of testosterone aromatizing? I'm not sure if the LH going down is a good sign or a bad sign. I'm really hoping that I didn't desensitize the leydig cells but from all the research I did it said that it wasn't a worry at such doses. Do you guys think I should be worried, or should things normalize over time?

 

[hggnz]

Run clomid again at a lowish dose for a month without the DAA.

Some think DAA might be suppressive after discontinuation.

 

[fueledpassion]

Alright so I went ahead and got the bloodwork done and got the results back today. As expected, test has dropped. New numbers are:

Testosterone: 449
LH: 3.7
FSH: 1.7
Estradiol: 9.6 (7.6-42.6)

I'm not really sure how to interpret these results. LH and FSH both went down quite significantly as well as total testosterone. Being that my estrogen is on the lower end, shouldn't this signal my pituitary to keep the LH high since the negative feedback loop should tell my HPTA that there isn't a lot of testosterone aromatizing? I'm not sure if the LH going down is a good sign or a bad sign. I'm really hoping that I didn't desensitize the leydig cells but from all the research I did it said that it wasn't a worry at such doses. Do you guys think I should be worried, or should things normalize over time?

Normalize over time. Just wait it out.

 

[X1D]

Yeah now I plan to wait atleast 6 weeks before getting tested again. Do you think that LH drop is anything to be alert about? Libido is still very low but on my last cycle it took about a month after PCT to come back. At that point it came back really strong.

 

[thegodfather]

Normalize over time. Just wait it out.

I agree. PCT is really more of a jumpstart to recovery, not the entire duration of recovery. Should be feeling better in a few more weeks or so.

 

[X1D]

Thank you guys for the assistance and replies. One last question and I'm done. Could the drop in LH in any way signal a failure or damage of the pituitary? I'm just nervous at the fact that it dropped so fast. I know it's still in normal range but I'm a little afraid of it dropping to below 1. Do you think the drop between the two tests could indicate a failure of my HPTA?

 

[aSKINNYkid]

You need to consider that u might've desensitized the Leydig cells to LH. This would in turn cause the Leydig cells to shutdown. What was ur Clomid dosing?

You want high T levels and a low LH/FSH level on the bloods. That indicates normal function.

Consider anything that serves as an anti-oxidant to the Leydig cells such as Tocopherols.

^^ This

Why I always heard that an HCG "blast" was bad and to stick to the traditional 500iu/w until PCT

 

[fueledpassion]

^^ This

Why I always heard that an HCG "blast" was bad and to stick to the traditional 500iu/w until PCT

Ironically, the "blast" is actually the traditional protocol. The new school of thought based on research is 250iu X 2 per week. I'm still convinced that 100iu/day would be best though.

 

[X1D]

Once again thank you guys for the advice. From what I've read once you've desensitized Leydig cells it is irreversible right? Can they by any chance resensitize?

 

[fueledpassion]

Once again thank you guys for the advice. From what I've read once you've desensitized Leydig cells it is irreversible right? Can they by any chance resensitize?

That is a complicated subject that I think we (medical research community) are still figuring out.

From my understanding, there are mature Leydig cells and there are prenatal leydig cells.

The mature ones get desensitized by large doses of HCG. The young cells do not - they respond appropriately. Furthermore, there are some studies in rats where the Leydig cells shutdown and froze production of testosterone at the onset of exogenous steroids, then years later, resumed production as normal when the exongenous T was stopped. I'd have to hunt for that study, but I'm certain I read it correctly over there on DatbTrue's site.

There is a slow trickle of data and research that is starting to suggest that cycling on and off over and over seems more harmful on the testes than cruising for longer periods of time. For what its worth, this remains true in most other areas of life as well. Just think of car engines, for instance. Which is healthier, to have 75K miles of nothing but hard, aggressive driving in a "stop and go" city environment, or to just have 150K of pure highway miles only? While this isn't 100% congruent, the essence of the message is captured. Cruising is easier on the engine/body than stop and go, even if done for twice the time.

But I'm not a medical expert, either. I think which compounds you use play just as large a role as to how long/frequently you cycle the hormone.

Trest, tren, nandrolone & dieonolone for 10-20 weeks will have a far more profound effect on the oxidation of the testes when compared to test, boldenone, desoxy T, masteron, var etc. for the same periods of use.

 

[jbryand101b]

That is a complicated subject that I think we (medical research community) are still figuring out.

From my understanding, there are mature Leydig cells and there are prenatal leydig cells.

The mature ones get desensitized by large doses of HCG. The young cells do not - they respond appropriately. Furthermore, there are some studies in rats where the Leydig cells shutdown and froze production of testosterone at the onset of exogenous steroids, then years later, resumed production as normal when the exongenous T was stopped. I'd have to hunt for that study, but I'm certain I read it correctly over there on DatbTrue's site.

There is a slow trickle of data and research that is starting to suggest that cycling on and off over and over seems more harmful on the testes than cruising for longer periods of time. For what its worth, this remains true in most other areas of life as well. Just think of car engines, for instance. Which is healthier, to have 75K miles of nothing but hard, aggressive driving in a "stop and go" city environment, or to just have 150K of pure highway miles only? While this isn't 100% congruent, the essence of the message is captured. Cruising is easier on the engine/body than stop and go, even if done for twice the time.

But I'm not a medical expert, either. I think which compounds you use play just as large a role as to how long/frequently you cycle the hormone.

Trest, tren, nandrolone & dieonolone for 10-20 weeks will have a far more profound effect on the oxidation of the testes when compared to test, boldenone, desoxy T, masteron, var etc. for the same periods of use.

What?

 

[fueledpassion]

Nevermind

 

[X1D]

Actually fueled I'm not sure sure if you saw my follow up thread but 6 weeks after my pct my test levels tanked. But it was due to my LH and FSH tanking, therefore causing my test to drop back down. I don't think it's my nuts though, I think it's my HPTA. I'm running some HCG to get my nuts back up again and starting another pct with clomid and nolva for 6 weeks. I really hope my pituitary becomes sustainable I'm way too young to consider TRT but I feel like garbage! Praying that this restart works

 

[fueledpassion]

A slow, long Clomid therapy with a gradual taper off might work.

 

[harbonah]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/ i cant seem to find it but there was a study supporting the use of taurine to avoid leydig cell damage.

 

[fueledpassion]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/ i cant seem to find it but there was a study supporting the use of taurine to avoid leydig cell damage.

I believe it along with tocopherols, melatonin and NAC. Those are the true on cycle support supps IMO.

 

[harbonah]

I believe it along with tocopherols, melatonin and NAC. Those are the true on cycle support supps IMO.

Yes thank you for the memory Jog there it was NAC not Taurine that seems to be useful for this. N-acetylcysteine counteracts oxidative stress and prevents hCG-induced apoptosis in rat Leydig cells through down regulation of caspase-8 and JNK.

 

[fueledpassion]

Yes thank you for the memory Jog there it was NAC not Taurine that seems to be useful for this. N-acetylcysteine counteracts oxidative stress and prevents hCG-induced apoptosis in rat Leydig cells through down regulation of caspase-8 and JNK.

There it is.

So NAC seems to be in the running for MVP.

1) Provides excellent liver support
2) Reduces oxidative damage in Leydig cells

What else does it do?

 

[Whacked]

There it is. So NAC seems to be in the running for MVP. 1) Provides excellent liver support 2) Reduces oxidative damage in Leydig cells What else does it do?

Well, there is allegedly evidence of it being used as a visceral fat loss agent as well since u asked

The thread is somewhere around here