H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?

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    H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?


    been planning on running a pretty mild cycle of either h-drol 75/75/75/75/75 or epi 30/40/40/40/40. now i've been doing a ton of research and though nolva is preferred it is quite toxic.

    i am wondering if a otc pct would suffice for a cycle like i have outlined? if not, would torem be better than nolva? the research i did on torem was rather limited since not much info is out there. nolva is pretty toxic stuff and carcinogenic, wondering if torem is similar? from my understanding nolva is mainly to prevent gyno, clomid for balls, torem for a bit of both. what about raloxifene?

    i also read that pct is really only useful for guys when they have down time between cycles. this would be my first cycle, and at most i would do 1 maybe 2 per year if at all. would a test booster, and an ai suffice? formestane or the like?

    i am a bit over 30 and the cost of quality otc pct supps don't matter to me. if otc pct is a viable option if someone could outline the hands down best route that would be appreciated. my goal for this cycle would be approx 8-10lbm.

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    I ran 2 cycles H-Drol 50/75/75/75/75/75 in the past (finished the last one in July). I actually like the product for the hard gains but both times ran Cel cycle assist PCT and fish oil with my regular mega men muti vit. during the complete cycle. You can find tons of posts on it and if you look at the compunds u can pretty much use it as a stand alone since its not to potent(mixed reviews). First cycle I gained 12lbs with a decent diet (weekends no diet) and 2nd time was 17lb with a heavy whole foods strict diet so it really depends on you. I like the product and the results both times for adding some weight. The product is more built for cutting but u will see gains. Week 2 toward the end of the week u will start to see some noticable strength. I posted my log some time ago, let me know and ill post it again. Also people run it 4-6weeks I did 5 the first time and 6 the second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevrquit View Post
    I ran 2 cycles H-Drol 50/75/75/75/75/75 in the past (finished the last one in July). I actually like the product for the hard gains but both times ran Cel cycle assist PCT and fish oil with my regular mega men muti vit. during the complete cycle. You can find tons of posts on it and if you look at the compunds u can pretty much use it as a stand alone since its not to potent(mixed reviews). First cycle I gained 12lbs with a decent diet (weekends no diet) and 2nd time was 17lb with a heavy whole foods strict diet so it really depends on you. I like the product and the results both times for adding some weight. The product is more built for cutting but u will see gains. Week 2 toward the end of the week u will start to see some noticable strength. I posted my log some time ago, let me know and ill post it again. Also people run it 4-6weeks I did 5 the first time and 6 the second.
    thanks for chiming in, appreciate it. so both times you just used the cel cycle assist for pct, no serms?

    if i go the otc route i feel like 5 weeks is reasonable. with a compound like h-drol 4 seems a tad low and from most research i've done not too many gains appear in week 6. if i could get 10lbs out of it i'd be pretty happy, anything more is just gravy on top. my diet is super clean, i don't eat out, and don't eat junk food at all. i would likely up cals on most days by 3-500 and limit my cardio.

    also if i go the otc pct route it appears h-drol might be the better choice based on the following: some people don't respond to epi, higher chance for rebound gyno, and a little bit more harsh overall.

    my staple supplements i take now are just whey, creatine, vitamin code complete multi, fish oil 6 per day, green tea extract and that is about it. the products that i think i would need for otc pct would be hawthorn berry pre loaded, on cycle support during, daa for after cycle, possibly reversitol? formestane, hcgenerate? just some of the stuff i've been seeing. the cost doesn't really matter but at the same time i don't want to take more than i need either.

    btw 17lbs is amazing! was that mostly lbm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    thanks for chiming in, appreciate it. so both times you just used the cel cycle assist for pct, no serms?

    if i go the otc route i feel like 5 weeks is reasonable. with a compound like h-drol 4 seems a tad low and from most research i've done not too many gains appear in week 6. if i could get 10lbs out of it i'd be pretty happy, anything more is just gravy on top. my diet is super clean, i don't eat out, and don't eat junk food at all. i would likely up cals on most days by 3-500 and limit my cardio.

    also if i go the otc pct route it appears h-drol might be the better choice based on the following: some people don't respond to epi, higher chance for rebound gyno, and a little bit more harsh overall.

    my staple supplements i take now are just whey, creatine, vitamin code complete multi, fish oil 6 per day, green tea extract and that is about it. the products that i think i would need for otc pct would be hawthorn berry pre loaded, on cycle support during, daa for after cycle, possibly reversitol? formestane, hcgenerate? just some of the stuff i've been seeing. the cost doesn't really matter but at the same time i don't want to take more than i need either.

    btw 17lbs is amazing! was that mostly lbm?
    Any reason no serm? Its not that scary I promise. Hdrol at 75 and stano at 800 or so, get a serm than run that **** 6 weeks! I went from around 215 to 235(the last few weeks I ran stano at 1200) now week 3 pct down to around 228 but all the weight I lost was in my midsection and water weight, still feel swole still getting strength gains, leaning up a lot now feels great! ran a log check it out, get a serm an do it right!
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    OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing gains or worse, causing any harm to your endocrine system. If you think hdrol is this really mild, can't hurt me PH then you bare mistaken. Its not superdrol but its a toxic compound. The bottom line is that you will keep more gains with a SERM, period. Now you can make the choice.

    And BTW... to say hdrol is a "cutting" compound is just flat out not true. Diet dictates that. If you want to gain then you eat over maint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bono1132 View Post
    Any reason no serm? Its not that scary I promise. Hdrol at 75 and stano at 800 or so, get a serm than run that **** 6 weeks! I went from around 215 to 235(the last few weeks I ran stano at 1200) now week 3 pct down to around 228 but all the weight I lost was in my midsection and water weight, still feel swole still getting strength gains, leaning up a lot now feels great! ran a log check it out, get a serm an do it right!
    the main reason is that nolva is quite toxic and carcinogenic as well - i know everything is but i try and limit it when possible. i am not crossing the serm out for sure but just wanted to explore all options before making a decision. clomid seems like a better choice but does very little in preventing rebound gyno from what i gather, torem seems the best so far but there is very little info out there on it, absolutely nothing on rolaxifene either.

    for a first run i would rather run one compound as opposed to two. if i run two i wont know which of the two i responded better to, if any. and just figure i can't go wrong keeping it simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing tour gains causing any harm to your endocrine system.

    I'd be more inclined to agree that OTC is mediocre (at best) if you pick one and run it medium dose for 4-5 weeks but stacking 2 methyls (even for 5 weeks), you will probably be more shut down than you think. My best advice it to just get a SERM. Its soooo easy and I can guarantee you keep more gains. Plus, there is no reason to risk adverse effects of improper PCT.
    10lbs is definitely great. my expectation would be 8-10lbs, anything over that is just icing on top.

    i'm not interested in running two methyls. it was going to be either the halo or epi, one or the other but not both. for a first run i'm kind of feeling the halo more so, especially if otc pct does come into play.
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    Sorry...reread now. I edited my mistake.

    Look at it like this too: People who have used SERMs recommend them. The people who think they do more damage then good have usually never used them. Its the dumbest excuse out there. SERMs are too toxic... really? But people will gladly take a methylated PH for the "gainz" part?

    PCT is the important part. Anyone can gain from a PH if you eat food and lift. Keeping gains is the challenge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing gains or worse, causing any harm to your endocrine system. If you think hdrol is this really mild, can't hurt me PH then you bare mistaken. Its not superdrol but its a toxic compound. The bottom line is that you will keep more gains with a SERM, period. Now you can make the choice.

    And BTW... to say hdrol is a "cutting" compound is just flat out not true. Diet dictates that. If you want to gain then you eat over maint.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Sorry...reread now. I edited my mistake.
    no worries but i think you're mixing up my post with nevrquits - he stated h-drol is more for cutting. my original post stated i would be eating 3-500 cals above maintenance.

    anyhow i don't think that h-drol is mild in that regard, more so just that it is not as harsh as say superdrol, dmz and the double stacked formulas. and mild enough that as long as i don't run it high or long(over 75 and longer then 5 weeks) a otc pct should be okay. i believe in the less is more approach, at least until i come to the conclusion more is needed, thru trial and error.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    no worries but i think you're mixing up my post with nevrquits - he stated h-drol is more for cutting. my original post stated i would be eating 3-500 cals above maintenance.

    anyhow i don't think that h-drol is mild in that regard, more so just that it is not as harsh as say superdrol, dmz and the double stacked formulas. and mild enough that as long as i don't run it high or long(over 75 and longer then 5 weeks) a otc pct should be okay. i believe in the less is more approach, at least until i come to the conclusion more is needed, thru trial and error.
    Yea. I wasn't correcting you. Just making sure you knew that was false.

    Alright, well I said my part. I've done a 5 week hdrol with OTC before. Less is not more for PCTs but you will learn just like I did.

    And DMZ is actually not much more harsh than hdrol IMO. Its surely not SD but I've had less sides than hdrol and have gained 21 lbs in 5 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Yea. I wasn't correcting you. Just making sure you knew that was false.

    Alright, well I said my part. I've done a 5 week hdrol with OTC before. Less is not more for PCTs but you will learn just like I did.

    And DMZ is actually not much more harsh than hdrol IMO. Its surely not SD but I've had less sides than hdrol and have gained 21 lbs in 5 weeks.
    okay gotcha. i mean't less is more with the run of halo itself, lower dose @75 and 5 weeks instead of 6, probably taper down also.

    so if i don't want to use nolva would you opt for clomid or torem?

    dmz looks great from all that i've seen but for a first run i think halo or even epi would be more within my comfort zone and if all is well can explore dmz down the line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post
    okay gotcha. i mean't less is more with the run of halo itself, lower dose @75 and 5 weeks instead of 6, probably taper down also.

    so if i don't want to use nolva would you opt for clomid or torem?

    dmz looks great from all that i've seen but for a first run i think halo or even epi would be more within my comfort zone and if all is well can explore dmz down the line.
    Absolutely, DMZ is not a good first run. Its still a dimethyl even though the sides are very low compared to most in the same category. 100mg of hdrol gave me worse sides than 60mg of DMZ, though.

    Where have you heard about nolva being so bad? I can't even tell I'm taking it honestly. I have not used Clomid or Torem, sorry. I do know that people who get very emotional taking clomid and there are potential vision risks but that being said, it all depends on your dosage. I honestly doubt you would have a bad experience on any of the above stated but I can personally vouch that I don't even know I'm taking Nolva other than the triumphed return of my nuts!

    Keep in mind also that you will gain 3-5 lbs very quickly in the first week of a PH like hdrol (water and glycogen), so 8 lbs on the scale after a short run usually translates to 2-4 pounds of muscle... maybe. Now, if you chose to get a SERM, you can get into the realm of actually gaining 12-15 lbs in a full 6 weeks and be sure to hold most of it. Not to say you cant gain and retain something doing an OTC, but in my eyes its a catch 22 because you can't gain as much in the first place because you have to cut it short and you may not hold as much either after all is said and done. Gains wont start until the 20ish day mark either way. You may regret having to cut it short. A short run of a PH does not do what I first thought it was going to.
    Currently logging: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/236161-dymethazine-4-ad.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post
    been planning on running a pretty mild cycle of either h-drol 75/75/75/75/75 or epi 30/40/40/40/40. now i've been doing a ton of research and though nolva is preferred it is quite toxic.

    i am wondering if a otc pct would suffice for a cycle like i have outlined? if not, would torem be better than nolva? the research i did on torem was rather limited since not much info is out there. nolva is pretty toxic stuff and carcinogenic, wondering if torem is similar? from my understanding nolva is mainly to prevent gyno, clomid for balls, torem for a bit of both. what about raloxifene?

    i also read that pct is really only useful for guys when they have down time between cycles. this would be my first cycle, and at most i would do 1 maybe 2 per year if at all. would a test booster, and an ai suffice? formestane or the like?

    i am a bit over 30 and the cost of quality otc pct supps don't matter to me. if otc pct is a viable option if someone could outline the hands down best route that would be appreciated. my goal for this cycle would be approx 8-10lbm.
    either cycle is fine

    use liver assist xt during it or cycle assist if you're worried bout your liver

    otc pct
    inhibit e
    daa / pct assist
    reduce xt

    otherwise

    clomi 50/25/25/25
    or
    nolva 40/20/20/20
    +daa / pct assist if you want some extra power
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    the main reason is that nolva is quite toxic and carcinogenic as well - i know everything is but i try and limit it when possible. i am not crossing the serm out for sure but just wanted to explore all options before making a decision. clomid seems like a better choice but does very little in preventing rebound gyno from what i gather, torem seems the best so far but there is very little info out there on it, absolutely nothing on rolaxifene either.

    for a first run i would rather run one compound as opposed to two. if i run two i wont know which of the two i responded better to, if any. and just figure i can't go wrong keeping it simple.

    10lbs is definitely great. my expectation would be 8-10lbs, anything over that is just icing on top.

    i'm not interested in running two methyls. it was going to be either the halo or epi, one or the other but not both. for a first run i'm kind of feeling the halo more so, especially if otc pct does come into play.
    Reason for stano is non methyl, increase gains a big, but mostly takes care of lethargy and libido issues caused by hdrol. There's a few people I know that had a hard time with lethargy on hdrol and epi. Run your cycle assist with the serm too
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Absolutely, DMZ is not a good first run. Its still a dimethyl even though the sides are very low compared to most in the same category. 100mg of hdrol gave me worse sides than 60mg of DMZ, though.

    Where have you heard about nolva being so bad? I can't even tell I'm taking it honestly. I have not used Clomid or Torem, sorry. I do know that people who get very emotional taking clomid and there are potential vision risks but that being said, it all depends on your dosage. I honestly doubt you would have a bad experience on any of the above stated but I can personally vouch that I don't even know I'm taking Nolva other than the triumphed return of my nuts!

    Keep in mind also that you will gain 3-5 lbs very quickly in the first week of a PH like hdrol (water and glycogen), so 8 lbs on the scale after a short run usually translates to 2-4 pounds of muscle... maybe. Now, if you chose to get a SERM, you can get into the realm of actually gaining 12-15 lbs in a full 6 weeks and be sure to hold most of it. Not to say you cant gain and retain something doing an OTC, but in my eyes its a catch 22 because you can't gain as much in the first place because you have to cut it short and you may not hold as much either after all is said and done. Gains wont start until the 20ish day mark either way. You may regret having to cut it short. A short run of a PH does not do what I first thought it was going to.
    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeekPoop View Post
    either cycle is fine

    use liver assist xt during it or cycle assist if you're worried bout your liver

    otc pct
    inhibit e
    daa / pct assist
    reduce xt

    otherwise

    clomi 50/25/25/25
    or
    nolva 40/20/20/20
    +daa / pct assist if you want some extra power
    is inhibit-e better then erase?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bono1132 View Post
    Reason for stano is non methyl, increase gains a big, but mostly takes care of lethargy and libido issues caused by hdrol. There's a few people I know that had a hard time with lethargy on hdrol and epi. Run your cycle assist with the serm too
    i will look into stano but still think i might give h-drol a solo run first time around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.
    Google anything and you will come up with cons, buddy. "Extremely toxic"?? Maybe to a 5 year patient at 20mg+ daily, but 4 weeks? That's a joke of an excuse and we've all heard it before.

    Compared to a methylated steroid precursor? Come on dude... gainz are more important than maintainz I guess.

    Just stick with an OTC then. It wont work as well after a certain amount of gains are had. The better your cycle is... the harder it will be for you to keep it all. Results are often closely related to suppression in the case of synthetics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.

    is inhibit-e better then erase?
    Those studies are for extended use by cancer patients. You don't need to use for years nor are you trying to prevent the return of cancer. Toxicity of use for 4 weeks I'm sure is pretty minimal. Funny you are worried about serm toxicity but going to run a designer steroid. Inhibit e and erase are for different purposes.
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    and again... ^^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Google anything and you will come up with cons, buddy. "Extremely toxic"?? Maybe to a 5 year patient at 20mg+ daily, but 4 weeks? That's a joke of an excuse and we've all heard it before.

    Compared to a methylated steroid precursor? Come on dude... gainz are more important than maintainz I guess.

    Just stick with an OTC then. It wont work as well after a certain amount of gains are had. The better your cycle is... the harder it will be for you to keep it all. Results are often closely related to suppression in the case of synthetics.
    Quote Originally Posted by rphash49 View Post
    Those studies are for extended use by cancer patients. You don't need to use for years nor are you trying to prevent the return of cancer. Toxicity of use for 4 weeks I'm sure is pretty minimal. Funny you are worried about serm toxicity but going to run a designer steroid. Inhibit e and erase are for different purposes.
    definitely not contesting benefit of nolva, just educating myself on all aspects of it. which is why i also mentioned torem and clomid as both seem like better alternatives, seems like torem ideally. nobody has chimed in with any info on it so far and the info i found was quite limited.

    i'm still researching everything so nothing has been decided just yet.
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    Good stuff man. We all had to do the same. You'll hear something new every day and just learn to weed thru it all haha

    Good luck with your run buddy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    definitely not contesting benefit of nolva, just educating myself on all aspects of it. which is why i also mentioned torem and clomid as both seem like better alternatives, seems like torem ideally. nobody has chimed in with any info on it so far and the info i found was quite limited.

    i'm still researching everything so nothing has been decided just yet.
    Definitely do that research. Important you know what you are putting in your body. Based on personal experience torem far outshines the other two. Based on research I've done torem and Clomid are best at restarting hpta, torem and Nolva are best at blocking e2 from breast receptors. I prefer torem because not only does it do the jobs of both Clomid and Nolva it has less sides. That being said torem has not had as much medical research done on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Good stuff man. We all had to do the same. You'll hear something new every day and just learn to weed thru it all haha

    Good luck with your run buddy.
    no doubt. i'll figure it out, no rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by rphash49 View Post
    Definitely do that research. Important you know what you are putting in your body. Based on personal experience torem far outshines the other two. Based on research I've done torem and Clomid are best at restarting hpta, torem and Nolva are best at blocking e2 from breast receptors. I prefer torem because not only does it do the jobs of both Clomid and Nolva it has less sides. That being said torem has not had as much medical research done on it.
    torem definitely seems like the winner. like you stated there is not much research, its relatively new compared to nolva/clomid.

    on a side note does anyone have any experience with the 1-andro or 1-alpha? these are about as mild as one can get. still researching them a bit but it seems like otc is very, very doable with either one. might not be a good run for a experienced user but someone with clean receptors and no ph/aas history it could be a decent run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    no doubt. i'll figure it out, no rush.

    torem definitely seems like the winner. like you stated there is not much research, its relatively new compared to nolva/clomid.

    on a side note does anyone have any experience with the 1-andro or 1-alpha? these are about as mild as one can get. still researching them a bit but it seems like otc is very, very doable with either one. might not be a good run for a experienced user but someone with clean receptors and no ph/aas history it could be a decent run.
    I've never ran them but I wouldn't run them solo. I doubt it would give anything in the form of results solo. Stacked would be a different story. I considered stacking it as a test base but it seems expensive and underdosed. But like I said I have not used it. I saw an LG science thread about 1-andro that should give you some answers.
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    I ran 1-andro for my first cycle (stacked with 4ad) and I still didnt get much better than natural results. Just being honest. I wouldn't do the cycle again.

    Ran 2 bottle of each @ 3ed for 6 weeks. Good libido boost but not much for size or strength. I take twice that now to barely get the test base I need for a PH run. Its VERY under dosed.
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    Quick ? If it's ran for 4 weeks at the recommended dose , will there be any benefit (talking about halo) ? Also at 4 weeks OTC pct would be idea?
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    As far as the serm debate occurring in this thread goes, heres a post that i copied an emailed to myself for possible FUTURE reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veritatis View Post
    Because I was bored...

    First of all, after spending a few hours reading studies and reviews for Tamoxifen, Clomiphene, and Toremifene; Toremifene is now the only SERM I will ever recommend. For it definitely seems to be the most effective and safest overall... A few reasons being: it lowers ldl, increases hdl, imporves bone mineral density, can lower prolactin, great at ER binding in breast tissue (seems to be just as good as Nolva, not as good as Ralox though), no progesterone issues, it increases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH just like tamox ie more LH, its the easiest on the liver, you get no emotional sides like clomid, and it seems to be amazing at rebooting HPTA ect ect... Personally, I feel like you get the benefits of Clomid and Nolva with far less of the negative, but as always, to each there own.

    Edit: there was a study done by some Greek researchers showing that tamox was slightly better then torem at increasing testosterone and LH. Though, the Torem dosage was lower then most use. Since, the study used 20 mg of tamoxifen and 60 mg of toremifene. Were most would use something like: 120/90/60/30 for toremifene. Regardless the results for 4 weeks of use were still pretty comparable. Also, I feel like overall torem is much safer, and most users seem to feel like Torem seems to kick in a lot sooner. Overall making it a better candidate for PCT

    Now in terms of enzyme activity and the following SERMs:

    Tamoxifen- requires both CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 to convert to its metabolites, such as 4-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyl-4-hydroxytamoxifen. Without these metabolite there would be significantly less ER binding, leading to a substantial decrease in function. The enzyme CYP2D6 is used by most SSRI. Therefore, they compete for binding, and anti depressants seem to be able to bind more readily then tamoxifen. So, in general anti depressants should be avoided when using tamoxifen. In addition, the enzyme CYP3A4 is inhibited by things such as piperine, milk thistle, and quercetin (this initially inhibits, but later induces expression. Either way it should be avoided). These are found in a vast variety of supplements currently available on the market, all of which you should stay away from when consuming Tamox.

    Toremifene- only seems to require CYP3A4, not CYP2D6, to convert to its primarily metabolite: N-demethyltoremifene. Again without this metabolite the SERM would be left more or less essentially ineffective. You are looking at around a 30-100x decrease in effectiveness. Thus, again you should avoid bioperine, milk thistle, and quercetin or anything else that effects CYP3A4. Though, since torem doesnt use CYP2D6 most anti depressants seem to be okay. For example: Cymbalta, Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Zoloft ect

    Clomiphene- The conversion of its metabolites depends on both CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 to produce 4-hydroxy-N-desethylclomiphene, 4-OH-DE-Clom, 4-hydroxyclomiphene ect. So, again you should avoid anti depressants, bioperine, milk thistle, and quercetin

    So, in conclusion stay away from bioperine, milk thistle, quercetin and even grapefruit juice with any of the above SERMs. (Grapefruit juice inhibits P450 enzyme activity, which may allow for greater initial build up/concentrations of the above SERMs, but in the long run using grapefruit juice will make them less effective and should thus be avoided.) Also, I want to note there are most likely other P450 enzymes involved ect. I am just trying add the point that Toremifene seems to be the only SERM that can be safely taken with most anti depressants and is also the one with the least drug interactions. Though, always verify drug interactions and consult a doctor before taking anything.

    In addition here is a list of a few regularly used products that should be avoided when taking the above SERMs: MyoTEST, Zeus, TestoPRO, original BioForge, PCT Assist, N1-T, Triazole, Stoked ect you get the idea

    Edit: I have come across some contradicting studies with milk thistle and CYP3A4. Some claim a 50-100% decrease in activity. Others say most products don't provide a significant amount of extract to have a effect on CYP3A4. Stating, [1] "Silybin concentrations after intake of milk thistle are too low to significantly affect the function of CYP3A4." Though, I do believe that any effective Milk of Thistle product on the market will have a impact on CYP3A4 activity, and thus your SERM.

    [1] van Erp NP, Baker SD, Zhao M, et al.: Effect of milk thistle (Silybum marianum) on the pharmacokinetics of irinotecan. Clin Cancer Res 11 (21): 7800-6, 2005.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hw101 View Post
    Quick ? If it's ran for 4 weeks at the recommended dose , will there be any benefit (talking about halo) ? Also at 4 weeks OTC pct would be idea?
    Yes, there will be "some" benefit. You just don't see it often because you are essentially taking it for 3 weeks to gain for 1 week. You can still get results from it, I guess. Forget about 8-10 actual pounds, though. To gain 8-10 quality pounds, you will need to take enough to suppress your system, hence needing a SERM.

    Bottom line is you are taking something that is far more liver toxic than a SERM in the first place. Its an oxymoron to be cool with putting methylated hormones in your system but then worry about what a SERM will do. Its really silly. You will be so happy running it for 6 weeks along stano or 4ad, then using nolva 20/20/10/10

    Sooo easy, i look back at when i ran OTC and laugh. You can try OTC if you want but the more you gain, the more disappointing it will be to see it go. Not to mention its unsafe if you are really suppressed. And yes, hdrol can cause a lot of suppression even though its "mild". Its "mild" for a freaking steroid so, food for thought.
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    How about this, try a 5 week run with no stano/4ad test base (you will probably experience a strong loss of libido and lethargy) and then build an intense OTC stack to run PCT. I dont think that will hurt you and it will teach you why we are all preaching this.

    Your OTC PCT will probably cost more and be far less effective but thats clearly the answer you are looking for.

    DAA
    Activate Xtreme or Bioforge
    AD-3 PCT (basically Erase with 800mg L-dopa) stuff is awesome
    Anabeta (for appetite among other benefits)
    A good pre-workout (Enhance rules)
    Creatine
    BCAAs

    You could add more depending on goals...
    (others could add on if they please)

    BTW, I'm not a rep for anything. Simply trying to give advice.
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    Thank you just asking questions to learn as I do research . Just want to read and see what people say befor I make the step
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