H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?
- 10-23-2013, 01:18 AM
H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?
been planning on running a pretty mild cycle of either h-drol 75/75/75/75/75 or epi 30/40/40/40/40. now i've been doing a ton of research and though nolva is preferred it is quite toxic.
i am wondering if a otc pct would suffice for a cycle like i have outlined? if not, would torem be better than nolva? the research i did on torem was rather limited since not much info is out there. nolva is pretty toxic stuff and carcinogenic, wondering if torem is similar? from my understanding nolva is mainly to prevent gyno, clomid for balls, torem for a bit of both. what about raloxifene?
i also read that pct is really only useful for guys when they have down time between cycles. this would be my first cycle, and at most i would do 1 maybe 2 per year if at all. would a test booster, and an ai suffice? formestane or the like?
i am a bit over 30 and the cost of quality otc pct supps don't matter to me. if otc pct is a viable option if someone could outline the hands down best route that would be appreciated. my goal for this cycle would be approx 8-10lbm.
- 10-23-2013, 04:45 AM
I ran 2 cycles H-Drol 50/75/75/75/75/75 in the past (finished the last one in July). I actually like the product for the hard gains but both times ran Cel cycle assist PCT and fish oil with my regular mega men muti vit. during the complete cycle. You can find tons of posts on it and if you look at the compunds u can pretty much use it as a stand alone since its not to potent(mixed reviews). First cycle I gained 12lbs with a decent diet (weekends no diet) and 2nd time was 17lb with a heavy whole foods strict diet so it really depends on you. I like the product and the results both times for adding some weight. The product is more built for cutting but u will see gains. Week 2 toward the end of the week u will start to see some noticable strength. I posted my log some time ago, let me know and ill post it again. Also people run it 4-6weeks I did 5 the first time and 6 the second.
10-23-2013, 05:12 AM
if i go the otc route i feel like 5 weeks is reasonable. with a compound like h-drol 4 seems a tad low and from most research i've done not too many gains appear in week 6. if i could get 10lbs out of it i'd be pretty happy, anything more is just gravy on top. my diet is super clean, i don't eat out, and don't eat junk food at all. i would likely up cals on most days by 3-500 and limit my cardio.
also if i go the otc pct route it appears h-drol might be the better choice based on the following: some people don't respond to epi, higher chance for rebound gyno, and a little bit more harsh overall.
my staple supplements i take now are just whey, creatine, vitamin code complete multi, fish oil 6 per day, green tea extract and that is about it. the products that i think i would need for otc pct would be hawthorn berry pre loaded, on cycle support during, daa for after cycle, possibly reversitol? formestane, hcgenerate? just some of the stuff i've been seeing. the cost doesn't really matter but at the same time i don't want to take more than i need either.
btw 17lbs is amazing! was that mostly lbm?
10-23-2013, 09:33 AM
10-23-2013, 10:03 AM
OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing gains or worse, causing any harm to your endocrine system. If you think hdrol is this really mild, can't hurt me PH then you bare mistaken. Its not superdrol but its a toxic compound. The bottom line is that you will keep more gains with a SERM, period. Now you can make the choice.
And BTW... to say hdrol is a "cutting" compound is just flat out not true. Diet dictates that. If you want to gain then you eat over maint.
10-23-2013, 10:12 AM
for a first run i would rather run one compound as opposed to two. if i run two i wont know which of the two i responded better to, if any. and just figure i can't go wrong keeping it simple.
i'm not interested in running two methyls. it was going to be either the halo or epi, one or the other but not both. for a first run i'm kind of feeling the halo more so, especially if otc pct does come into play.
10-23-2013, 10:13 AM
Sorry...reread now. I edited my mistake.
Look at it like this too: People who have used SERMs recommend them. The people who think they do more damage then good have usually never used them. Its the dumbest excuse out there. SERMs are too toxic... really? But people will gladly take a methylated PH for the "gainz" part?
PCT is the important part. Anyone can gain from a PH if you eat food and lift. Keeping gains is the challenge.
10-23-2013, 10:25 AM
anyhow i don't think that h-drol is mild in that regard, more so just that it is not as harsh as say superdrol, dmz and the double stacked formulas. and mild enough that as long as i don't run it high or long(over 75 and longer then 5 weeks) a otc pct should be okay. i believe in the less is more approach, at least until i come to the conclusion more is needed, thru trial and error.
10-23-2013, 10:31 AM
Alright, well I said my part. I've done a 5 week hdrol with OTC before. Less is not more for PCTs but you will learn just like I did.
And DMZ is actually not much more harsh than hdrol IMO. Its surely not SD but I've had less sides than hdrol and have gained 21 lbs in 5 weeks.
10-23-2013, 10:35 AM
so if i don't want to use nolva would you opt for clomid or torem?
dmz looks great from all that i've seen but for a first run i think halo or even epi would be more within my comfort zone and if all is well can explore dmz down the line.
10-23-2013, 02:57 PM
Where have you heard about nolva being so bad? I can't even tell I'm taking it honestly. I have not used Clomid or Torem, sorry. I do know that people who get very emotional taking clomid and there are potential vision risks but that being said, it all depends on your dosage. I honestly doubt you would have a bad experience on any of the above stated but I can personally vouch that I don't even know I'm taking Nolva other than the triumphed return of my nuts!
Keep in mind also that you will gain 3-5 lbs very quickly in the first week of a PH like hdrol (water and glycogen), so 8 lbs on the scale after a short run usually translates to 2-4 pounds of muscle... maybe. Now, if you chose to get a SERM, you can get into the realm of actually gaining 12-15 lbs in a full 6 weeks and be sure to hold most of it. Not to say you cant gain and retain something doing an OTC, but in my eyes its a catch 22 because you can't gain as much in the first place because you have to cut it short and you may not hold as much either after all is said and done. Gains wont start until the 20ish day mark either way. You may regret having to cut it short. A short run of a PH does not do what I first thought it was going to.
10-23-2013, 07:21 PM
10-23-2013, 08:19 PM
10-24-2013, 12:12 AM
10-24-2013, 01:05 AM
10-24-2013, 12:32 PM
Compared to a methylated steroid precursor? Come on dude... gainz are more important than maintainz I guess.
Just stick with an OTC then. It wont work as well after a certain amount of gains are had. The better your cycle is... the harder it will be for you to keep it all. Results are often closely related to suppression in the case of synthetics.
10-24-2013, 12:39 PM
10-24-2013, 01:15 PM
10-24-2013, 02:24 PM
i'm still researching everything so nothing has been decided just yet.
10-24-2013, 02:45 PM
Good stuff man. We all had to do the same. You'll hear something new every day and just learn to weed thru it all haha
Good luck with your run buddy.
10-24-2013, 04:10 PM
10-24-2013, 04:26 PM
on a side note does anyone have any experience with the 1-andro or 1-alpha? these are about as mild as one can get. still researching them a bit but it seems like otc is very, very doable with either one. might not be a good run for a experienced user but someone with clean receptors and no ph/aas history it could be a decent run.
10-24-2013, 05:13 PM
10-24-2013, 05:18 PM
I ran 1-andro for my first cycle (stacked with 4ad) and I still didnt get much better than natural results. Just being honest. I wouldn't do the cycle again.
Ran 2 bottle of each @ 3ed for 6 weeks. Good libido boost but not much for size or strength. I take twice that now to barely get the test base I need for a PH run. Its VERY under dosed.
10-29-2013, 01:51 PM
Quick ? If it's ran for 4 weeks at the recommended dose , will there be any benefit (talking about halo) ? Also at 4 weeks OTC pct would be idea?
10-29-2013, 02:12 PM
10-29-2013, 02:35 PM
Bottom line is you are taking something that is far more liver toxic than a SERM in the first place. Its an oxymoron to be cool with putting methylated hormones in your system but then worry about what a SERM will do. Its really silly. You will be so happy running it for 6 weeks along stano or 4ad, then using nolva 20/20/10/10
Sooo easy, i look back at when i ran OTC and laugh. You can try OTC if you want but the more you gain, the more disappointing it will be to see it go. Not to mention its unsafe if you are really suppressed. And yes, hdrol can cause a lot of suppression even though its "mild". Its "mild" for a freaking steroid so, food for thought.
10-29-2013, 02:47 PM
How about this, try a 5 week run with no stano/4ad test base (you will probably experience a strong loss of libido and lethargy) and then build an intense OTC stack to run PCT. I dont think that will hurt you and it will teach you why we are all preaching this.
Your OTC PCT will probably cost more and be far less effective but thats clearly the answer you are looking for.
Activate Xtreme or Bioforge
AD-3 PCT (basically Erase with 800mg L-dopa) stuff is awesome
Anabeta (for appetite among other benefits)
A good pre-workout (Enhance rules)
You could add more depending on goals...
(others could add on if they please)
BTW, I'm not a rep for anything. Simply trying to give advice.
10-29-2013, 04:19 PM
Thank you just asking questions to learn as I do research . Just want to read and see what people say befor I make the step
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