H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. H-drol/Epi Mild Cycle OTC PCT Suffice? Torem over Nolva?


    been planning on running a pretty mild cycle of either h-drol 75/75/75/75/75 or epi 30/40/40/40/40. now i've been doing a ton of research and though nolva is preferred it is quite toxic.

    i am wondering if a otc pct would suffice for a cycle like i have outlined? if not, would torem be better than nolva? the research i did on torem was rather limited since not much info is out there. nolva is pretty toxic stuff and carcinogenic, wondering if torem is similar? from my understanding nolva is mainly to prevent gyno, clomid for balls, torem for a bit of both. what about raloxifene?

    i also read that pct is really only useful for guys when they have down time between cycles. this would be my first cycle, and at most i would do 1 maybe 2 per year if at all. would a test booster, and an ai suffice? formestane or the like?

    i am a bit over 30 and the cost of quality otc pct supps don't matter to me. if otc pct is a viable option if someone could outline the hands down best route that would be appreciated. my goal for this cycle would be approx 8-10lbm.


  2. I ran 2 cycles H-Drol 50/75/75/75/75/75 in the past (finished the last one in July). I actually like the product for the hard gains but both times ran Cel cycle assist PCT and fish oil with my regular mega men muti vit. during the complete cycle. You can find tons of posts on it and if you look at the compunds u can pretty much use it as a stand alone since its not to potent(mixed reviews). First cycle I gained 12lbs with a decent diet (weekends no diet) and 2nd time was 17lb with a heavy whole foods strict diet so it really depends on you. I like the product and the results both times for adding some weight. The product is more built for cutting but u will see gains. Week 2 toward the end of the week u will start to see some noticable strength. I posted my log some time ago, let me know and ill post it again. Also people run it 4-6weeks I did 5 the first time and 6 the second.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by nevrquit View Post
    I ran 2 cycles H-Drol 50/75/75/75/75/75 in the past (finished the last one in July). I actually like the product for the hard gains but both times ran Cel cycle assist PCT and fish oil with my regular mega men muti vit. during the complete cycle. You can find tons of posts on it and if you look at the compunds u can pretty much use it as a stand alone since its not to potent(mixed reviews). First cycle I gained 12lbs with a decent diet (weekends no diet) and 2nd time was 17lb with a heavy whole foods strict diet so it really depends on you. I like the product and the results both times for adding some weight. The product is more built for cutting but u will see gains. Week 2 toward the end of the week u will start to see some noticable strength. I posted my log some time ago, let me know and ill post it again. Also people run it 4-6weeks I did 5 the first time and 6 the second.
    thanks for chiming in, appreciate it. so both times you just used the cel cycle assist for pct, no serms?

    if i go the otc route i feel like 5 weeks is reasonable. with a compound like h-drol 4 seems a tad low and from most research i've done not too many gains appear in week 6. if i could get 10lbs out of it i'd be pretty happy, anything more is just gravy on top. my diet is super clean, i don't eat out, and don't eat junk food at all. i would likely up cals on most days by 3-500 and limit my cardio.

    also if i go the otc pct route it appears h-drol might be the better choice based on the following: some people don't respond to epi, higher chance for rebound gyno, and a little bit more harsh overall.

    my staple supplements i take now are just whey, creatine, vitamin code complete multi, fish oil 6 per day, green tea extract and that is about it. the products that i think i would need for otc pct would be hawthorn berry pre loaded, on cycle support during, daa for after cycle, possibly reversitol? formestane, hcgenerate? just some of the stuff i've been seeing. the cost doesn't really matter but at the same time i don't want to take more than i need either.

    btw 17lbs is amazing! was that mostly lbm?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    thanks for chiming in, appreciate it. so both times you just used the cel cycle assist for pct, no serms?

    if i go the otc route i feel like 5 weeks is reasonable. with a compound like h-drol 4 seems a tad low and from most research i've done not too many gains appear in week 6. if i could get 10lbs out of it i'd be pretty happy, anything more is just gravy on top. my diet is super clean, i don't eat out, and don't eat junk food at all. i would likely up cals on most days by 3-500 and limit my cardio.

    also if i go the otc pct route it appears h-drol might be the better choice based on the following: some people don't respond to epi, higher chance for rebound gyno, and a little bit more harsh overall.

    my staple supplements i take now are just whey, creatine, vitamin code complete multi, fish oil 6 per day, green tea extract and that is about it. the products that i think i would need for otc pct would be hawthorn berry pre loaded, on cycle support during, daa for after cycle, possibly reversitol? formestane, hcgenerate? just some of the stuff i've been seeing. the cost doesn't really matter but at the same time i don't want to take more than i need either.

    btw 17lbs is amazing! was that mostly lbm?
    Any reason no serm? Its not that scary I promise. Hdrol at 75 and stano at 800 or so, get a serm than run that **** 6 weeks! I went from around 215 to 235(the last few weeks I ran stano at 1200) now week 3 pct down to around 228 but all the weight I lost was in my midsection and water weight, still feel swole still getting strength gains, leaning up a lot now feels great! ran a log check it out, get a serm an do it right!

  5. OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing gains or worse, causing any harm to your endocrine system. If you think hdrol is this really mild, can't hurt me PH then you bare mistaken. Its not superdrol but its a toxic compound. The bottom line is that you will keep more gains with a SERM, period. Now you can make the choice.

    And BTW... to say hdrol is a "cutting" compound is just flat out not true. Diet dictates that. If you want to gain then you eat over maint.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by bono1132 View Post
    Any reason no serm? Its not that scary I promise. Hdrol at 75 and stano at 800 or so, get a serm than run that **** 6 weeks! I went from around 215 to 235(the last few weeks I ran stano at 1200) now week 3 pct down to around 228 but all the weight I lost was in my midsection and water weight, still feel swole still getting strength gains, leaning up a lot now feels great! ran a log check it out, get a serm an do it right!
    the main reason is that nolva is quite toxic and carcinogenic as well - i know everything is but i try and limit it when possible. i am not crossing the serm out for sure but just wanted to explore all options before making a decision. clomid seems like a better choice but does very little in preventing rebound gyno from what i gather, torem seems the best so far but there is very little info out there on it, absolutely nothing on rolaxifene either.

    for a first run i would rather run one compound as opposed to two. if i run two i wont know which of the two i responded better to, if any. and just figure i can't go wrong keeping it simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing tour gains causing any harm to your endocrine system.

    I'd be more inclined to agree that OTC is mediocre (at best) if you pick one and run it medium dose for 4-5 weeks but stacking 2 methyls (even for 5 weeks), you will probably be more shut down than you think. My best advice it to just get a SERM. Its soooo easy and I can guarantee you keep more gains. Plus, there is no reason to risk adverse effects of improper PCT.
    10lbs is definitely great. my expectation would be 8-10lbs, anything over that is just icing on top.

    i'm not interested in running two methyls. it was going to be either the halo or epi, one or the other but not both. for a first run i'm kind of feeling the halo more so, especially if otc pct does come into play.

  7. Sorry...reread now. I edited my mistake.

    Look at it like this too: People who have used SERMs recommend them. The people who think they do more damage then good have usually never used them. Its the dumbest excuse out there. SERMs are too toxic... really? But people will gladly take a methylated PH for the "gainz" part?

    PCT is the important part. Anyone can gain from a PH if you eat food and lift. Keeping gains is the challenge.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    OP, gaining 10 lbs in 5 weeks is nothing to sneeze at. That's 4x faster than the absolute best results a trained subject would ever get naturally. A SERM is so easy to obtain its almost silly to roll the dice on losing gains or worse, causing any harm to your endocrine system. If you think hdrol is this really mild, can't hurt me PH then you bare mistaken. Its not superdrol but its a toxic compound. The bottom line is that you will keep more gains with a SERM, period. Now you can make the choice.

    And BTW... to say hdrol is a "cutting" compound is just flat out not true. Diet dictates that. If you want to gain then you eat over maint.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Sorry...reread now. I edited my mistake.
    no worries but i think you're mixing up my post with nevrquits - he stated h-drol is more for cutting. my original post stated i would be eating 3-500 cals above maintenance.

    anyhow i don't think that h-drol is mild in that regard, more so just that it is not as harsh as say superdrol, dmz and the double stacked formulas. and mild enough that as long as i don't run it high or long(over 75 and longer then 5 weeks) a otc pct should be okay. i believe in the less is more approach, at least until i come to the conclusion more is needed, thru trial and error.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    no worries but i think you're mixing up my post with nevrquits - he stated h-drol is more for cutting. my original post stated i would be eating 3-500 cals above maintenance.

    anyhow i don't think that h-drol is mild in that regard, more so just that it is not as harsh as say superdrol, dmz and the double stacked formulas. and mild enough that as long as i don't run it high or long(over 75 and longer then 5 weeks) a otc pct should be okay. i believe in the less is more approach, at least until i come to the conclusion more is needed, thru trial and error.
    Yea. I wasn't correcting you. Just making sure you knew that was false.

    Alright, well I said my part. I've done a 5 week hdrol with OTC before. Less is not more for PCTs but you will learn just like I did.

    And DMZ is actually not much more harsh than hdrol IMO. Its surely not SD but I've had less sides than hdrol and have gained 21 lbs in 5 weeks.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Yea. I wasn't correcting you. Just making sure you knew that was false.

    Alright, well I said my part. I've done a 5 week hdrol with OTC before. Less is not more for PCTs but you will learn just like I did.

    And DMZ is actually not much more harsh than hdrol IMO. Its surely not SD but I've had less sides than hdrol and have gained 21 lbs in 5 weeks.
    okay gotcha. i mean't less is more with the run of halo itself, lower dose @75 and 5 weeks instead of 6, probably taper down also.

    so if i don't want to use nolva would you opt for clomid or torem?

    dmz looks great from all that i've seen but for a first run i think halo or even epi would be more within my comfort zone and if all is well can explore dmz down the line.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post
    okay gotcha. i mean't less is more with the run of halo itself, lower dose @75 and 5 weeks instead of 6, probably taper down also.

    so if i don't want to use nolva would you opt for clomid or torem?

    dmz looks great from all that i've seen but for a first run i think halo or even epi would be more within my comfort zone and if all is well can explore dmz down the line.
    Absolutely, DMZ is not a good first run. Its still a dimethyl even though the sides are very low compared to most in the same category. 100mg of hdrol gave me worse sides than 60mg of DMZ, though.

    Where have you heard about nolva being so bad? I can't even tell I'm taking it honestly. I have not used Clomid or Torem, sorry. I do know that people who get very emotional taking clomid and there are potential vision risks but that being said, it all depends on your dosage. I honestly doubt you would have a bad experience on any of the above stated but I can personally vouch that I don't even know I'm taking Nolva other than the triumphed return of my nuts!

    Keep in mind also that you will gain 3-5 lbs very quickly in the first week of a PH like hdrol (water and glycogen), so 8 lbs on the scale after a short run usually translates to 2-4 pounds of muscle... maybe. Now, if you chose to get a SERM, you can get into the realm of actually gaining 12-15 lbs in a full 6 weeks and be sure to hold most of it. Not to say you cant gain and retain something doing an OTC, but in my eyes its a catch 22 because you can't gain as much in the first place because you have to cut it short and you may not hold as much either after all is said and done. Gains wont start until the 20ish day mark either way. You may regret having to cut it short. A short run of a PH does not do what I first thought it was going to.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post
    been planning on running a pretty mild cycle of either h-drol 75/75/75/75/75 or epi 30/40/40/40/40. now i've been doing a ton of research and though nolva is preferred it is quite toxic.

    i am wondering if a otc pct would suffice for a cycle like i have outlined? if not, would torem be better than nolva? the research i did on torem was rather limited since not much info is out there. nolva is pretty toxic stuff and carcinogenic, wondering if torem is similar? from my understanding nolva is mainly to prevent gyno, clomid for balls, torem for a bit of both. what about raloxifene?

    i also read that pct is really only useful for guys when they have down time between cycles. this would be my first cycle, and at most i would do 1 maybe 2 per year if at all. would a test booster, and an ai suffice? formestane or the like?

    i am a bit over 30 and the cost of quality otc pct supps don't matter to me. if otc pct is a viable option if someone could outline the hands down best route that would be appreciated. my goal for this cycle would be approx 8-10lbm.
    either cycle is fine

    use liver assist xt during it or cycle assist if you're worried bout your liver

    otc pct
    inhibit e
    daa / pct assist
    reduce xt

    otherwise

    clomi 50/25/25/25
    or
    nolva 40/20/20/20
    +daa / pct assist if you want some extra power
    Serious Nutrition Solutions

  13. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    the main reason is that nolva is quite toxic and carcinogenic as well - i know everything is but i try and limit it when possible. i am not crossing the serm out for sure but just wanted to explore all options before making a decision. clomid seems like a better choice but does very little in preventing rebound gyno from what i gather, torem seems the best so far but there is very little info out there on it, absolutely nothing on rolaxifene either.

    for a first run i would rather run one compound as opposed to two. if i run two i wont know which of the two i responded better to, if any. and just figure i can't go wrong keeping it simple.

    10lbs is definitely great. my expectation would be 8-10lbs, anything over that is just icing on top.

    i'm not interested in running two methyls. it was going to be either the halo or epi, one or the other but not both. for a first run i'm kind of feeling the halo more so, especially if otc pct does come into play.
    Reason for stano is non methyl, increase gains a big, but mostly takes care of lethargy and libido issues caused by hdrol. There's a few people I know that had a hard time with lethargy on hdrol and epi. Run your cycle assist with the serm too

  14. Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Absolutely, DMZ is not a good first run. Its still a dimethyl even though the sides are very low compared to most in the same category. 100mg of hdrol gave me worse sides than 60mg of DMZ, though.

    Where have you heard about nolva being so bad? I can't even tell I'm taking it honestly. I have not used Clomid or Torem, sorry. I do know that people who get very emotional taking clomid and there are potential vision risks but that being said, it all depends on your dosage. I honestly doubt you would have a bad experience on any of the above stated but I can personally vouch that I don't even know I'm taking Nolva other than the triumphed return of my nuts!

    Keep in mind also that you will gain 3-5 lbs very quickly in the first week of a PH like hdrol (water and glycogen), so 8 lbs on the scale after a short run usually translates to 2-4 pounds of muscle... maybe. Now, if you chose to get a SERM, you can get into the realm of actually gaining 12-15 lbs in a full 6 weeks and be sure to hold most of it. Not to say you cant gain and retain something doing an OTC, but in my eyes its a catch 22 because you can't gain as much in the first place because you have to cut it short and you may not hold as much either after all is said and done. Gains wont start until the 20ish day mark either way. You may regret having to cut it short. A short run of a PH does not do what I first thought it was going to.
    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeekPoop View Post
    either cycle is fine

    use liver assist xt during it or cycle assist if you're worried bout your liver

    otc pct
    inhibit e
    daa / pct assist
    reduce xt

    otherwise

    clomi 50/25/25/25
    or
    nolva 40/20/20/20
    +daa / pct assist if you want some extra power
    is inhibit-e better then erase?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by bono1132 View Post
    Reason for stano is non methyl, increase gains a big, but mostly takes care of lethargy and libido issues caused by hdrol. There's a few people I know that had a hard time with lethargy on hdrol and epi. Run your cycle assist with the serm too
    i will look into stano but still think i might give h-drol a solo run first time around.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.
    Google anything and you will come up with cons, buddy. "Extremely toxic"?? Maybe to a 5 year patient at 20mg+ daily, but 4 weeks? That's a joke of an excuse and we've all heard it before.

    Compared to a methylated steroid precursor? Come on dude... gainz are more important than maintainz I guess.

    Just stick with an OTC then. It wont work as well after a certain amount of gains are had. The better your cycle is... the harder it will be for you to keep it all. Results are often closely related to suppression in the case of synthetics.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    if you google nolva toxic or anything along those lines, a lot of posts and studies come up. it is no secret nolva is extremely toxic, even if you feel okay on it that does not dictate what it does internally. again i am sure using it here and there isn't a big deal but i'd prefer for a less toxic serm if possible.

    is inhibit-e better then erase?
    Those studies are for extended use by cancer patients. You don't need to use for years nor are you trying to prevent the return of cancer. Toxicity of use for 4 weeks I'm sure is pretty minimal. Funny you are worried about serm toxicity but going to run a designer steroid. Inhibit e and erase are for different purposes.

  18. and again... ^^^

  19. Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Google anything and you will come up with cons, buddy. "Extremely toxic"?? Maybe to a 5 year patient at 20mg+ daily, but 4 weeks? That's a joke of an excuse and we've all heard it before.

    Compared to a methylated steroid precursor? Come on dude... gainz are more important than maintainz I guess.

    Just stick with an OTC then. It wont work as well after a certain amount of gains are had. The better your cycle is... the harder it will be for you to keep it all. Results are often closely related to suppression in the case of synthetics.
    Quote Originally Posted by rphash49 View Post
    Those studies are for extended use by cancer patients. You don't need to use for years nor are you trying to prevent the return of cancer. Toxicity of use for 4 weeks I'm sure is pretty minimal. Funny you are worried about serm toxicity but going to run a designer steroid. Inhibit e and erase are for different purposes.
    definitely not contesting benefit of nolva, just educating myself on all aspects of it. which is why i also mentioned torem and clomid as both seem like better alternatives, seems like torem ideally. nobody has chimed in with any info on it so far and the info i found was quite limited.

    i'm still researching everything so nothing has been decided just yet.

  20. Good stuff man. We all had to do the same. You'll hear something new every day and just learn to weed thru it all haha

    Good luck with your run buddy.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    definitely not contesting benefit of nolva, just educating myself on all aspects of it. which is why i also mentioned torem and clomid as both seem like better alternatives, seems like torem ideally. nobody has chimed in with any info on it so far and the info i found was quite limited.

    i'm still researching everything so nothing has been decided just yet.
    Definitely do that research. Important you know what you are putting in your body. Based on personal experience torem far outshines the other two. Based on research I've done torem and Clomid are best at restarting hpta, torem and Nolva are best at blocking e2 from breast receptors. I prefer torem because not only does it do the jobs of both Clomid and Nolva it has less sides. That being said torem has not had as much medical research done on it.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by 6andaHalf View Post
    Good stuff man. We all had to do the same. You'll hear something new every day and just learn to weed thru it all haha

    Good luck with your run buddy.
    no doubt. i'll figure it out, no rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by rphash49 View Post
    Definitely do that research. Important you know what you are putting in your body. Based on personal experience torem far outshines the other two. Based on research I've done torem and Clomid are best at restarting hpta, torem and Nolva are best at blocking e2 from breast receptors. I prefer torem because not only does it do the jobs of both Clomid and Nolva it has less sides. That being said torem has not had as much medical research done on it.
    torem definitely seems like the winner. like you stated there is not much research, its relatively new compared to nolva/clomid.

    on a side note does anyone have any experience with the 1-andro or 1-alpha? these are about as mild as one can get. still researching them a bit but it seems like otc is very, very doable with either one. might not be a good run for a experienced user but someone with clean receptors and no ph/aas history it could be a decent run.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by 37dogg View Post

    no doubt. i'll figure it out, no rush.

    torem definitely seems like the winner. like you stated there is not much research, its relatively new compared to nolva/clomid.

    on a side note does anyone have any experience with the 1-andro or 1-alpha? these are about as mild as one can get. still researching them a bit but it seems like otc is very, very doable with either one. might not be a good run for a experienced user but someone with clean receptors and no ph/aas history it could be a decent run.
    I've never ran them but I wouldn't run them solo. I doubt it would give anything in the form of results solo. Stacked would be a different story. I considered stacking it as a test base but it seems expensive and underdosed. But like I said I have not used it. I saw an LG science thread about 1-andro that should give you some answers.

  24. I ran 1-andro for my first cycle (stacked with 4ad) and I still didnt get much better than natural results. Just being honest. I wouldn't do the cycle again.

    Ran 2 bottle of each @ 3ed for 6 weeks. Good libido boost but not much for size or strength. I take twice that now to barely get the test base I need for a PH run. Its VERY under dosed.

  25. Quick ? If it's ran for 4 weeks at the recommended dose , will there be any benefit (talking about halo) ? Also at 4 weeks OTC pct would be idea?
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-08-2008, 08:15 AM
  2. Blood work back from my h-drol cith Post Cycle Support pct
    By A_I_Sports_Nutrition in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 05-29-2008, 06:17 PM
Log in
Log in