Non Hormonal or Very Mild Pro Hormone

[rascal14]

I have been lifting for a couple years with a friend and we both weigh 155-160 but just recently decided to actually eat a lot and gain a lot of muscle mass. We were looking into something that wasn't hormonal or maybe a very mild pro hormone that with the right pre cautions wouldn't have any negative side effects in the long run. At first I was looking into hyperdrol x2 and mass fx, until I found out they weren't made anymore. I couldn't find out why, I read they had illegal substances hidden in them. I know mass fx destroyer and hard fx replaced them, but I haven't been able to find if they give good gains too, or not anymore since they were changed. Are there any other supplements like these that will work very good? My testosterone levels should be fine already, but they should be going up until my mid to late 20s, I'm just wanting pro hormone like gains, with out the side effects of possible hormone endocrine system problems later on. I've also read a little on x factor, DAA, and activate xtreme. Are there any others like this that could work really well but not shut down any natural production that my body already does and could possibly do more of later on? If these aren't promising then I will consider a mild pro hormone. I also do not want to lose any gains as much as possible when I am done with whatever cycle. Are halodrol liquid gels considered pro hormones? Are they even still available? I've read that they are and aren't and that some people say they do and don't need Post Cycle Therapy.. We both plan to use whatever we decide to bulk, and at the end of the cycle start to cut.

 

[McCrew530]

I have been lifting for a couple years with a friend and we both weigh 155-160 but just recently decided to actually eat a lot and gain a lot of muscle mass. We were looking into something that wasn't hormonal or maybe a very mild pro hormone that with the right pre cautions wouldn't have any negative side effects in the long run. At first I was looking into hyperdrol x2 and mass fx, until I found out they weren't made anymore. I couldn't find out why, I read they had illegal substances hidden in them. I know mass fx destroyer and hard fx replaced them, but I haven't been able to find if they give good gains too, or not anymore since they were changed. Are there any other supplements like these that will work very good? My testosterone levels should be fine already, but they should be going up until my mid to late 20s, I'm just wanting pro hormone like gains, with out the side effects of possible hormone endocrine system problems later on. I've also read a little on x factor, DAA, and activate xtreme. Are there any others like this that could work really well but not shut down any natural production that my body already does and could possibly do more of later on? If these aren't promising then I will consider a mild pro hormone. I also do not want to lose any gains as much as possible when I am done with whatever cycle. Are halodrol liquid gels considered pro hormones? Are they even still available? I've read that they are and aren't and that some people say they do and don't need Post Cycle Therapy.. We both plan to use whatever we decide to bulk, and at the end of the cycle start to cut.

Check out the stack/log that Im running right now bro its in my sig. Its working great and I am happy with the results that these compounds are providing plus no need for a PCT since it is a natural stack. If you are talking about the Halodrol gels by Gasparie dont waist your time.
PM me if you need more info.

 

[rascal14]

What all are each of the supplements you are taking used for? We are looking for something a little more simple, not a real big stack. Also, if we do decide to go with a pro hormone, we would prefer something legal and something that would be perfectly safe with all legal post cycle supplements. Because I do not know how to get anything illegal as of now. But would prefer something natural to start anyways.

 

[McCrew530]

ALCAR (helps with absorption)
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART03059/Acetyl-LCarnitine-ALCAR.html
Micronized Glycerol Monostearate will help with absorption and retention among other things
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/synthetic-supplements/micronized-glycerol-monostearate-gms-150-grams.html

Anabeta Elite Anabeta Elite: A combination of Anabeta, Forskolin and 5-Androsten-3B7B-diol-17-one (an active that 7-oxo converts to). Anabeta has numerous reports showing an increase in hunger and test boosting, Forskolin has Human Data showing reduction in body fat and increase in lean muscle mass and the 5-Androsten-3B7B-diol-17-one is there to control cortisol.

X-Gels: Contains Arachidonic Acid. Has Human Data showing increases in strength. It also converts to PGF alpha2 (and other prostaglandins) which is necessary for tissue growth and repair. Combine this with the potential for increased localized inflammation (which facilitates the shuttling of nutrients to the site).

To be honest all the "Legal" PH that are out there will need some kind of SERM and while legal it doesnt sound like the kind of thing you are wanting to dive into and those that dont need a serm and are ok with an OTC PCT like "Max Bulk" are rather expensive but effective if ran properly. This stack can be ran for 50days for about 200bucks and you wont be needing a PCT because you are not adding outside hormones so you wont be shut down at all. This stack is 4 things 3 of which you take mainly in the AM so its simple and will complement your recent increase of calories.

 

[pizzadrol]

What's your weight? Your both pretty light to be running anything hormonal still. You both still have quite a ways you can go relatively easily naturally just by eating big (and clean) and a proper training regiment.

Also, how old are you?

 

[harbonah]

What's your weight? Your both pretty light to be running anything hormonal still. You both still have quite a ways you can go relatively easily naturally just by eating big (and clean) and a proper training regiment.

Also, how old are you?

This to be honest OP your post screams 18 maybe 19-20 so how old are you?

 

[rascal14]

Both 21 and both right around 160. This is our first time actually bulking, we've always tried to just stay cut and had no intention of getting bigger until lately. I just liked the idea of year long gains in a couple months that some people get. But I know that's only if I go with something pretty strong and I don't want to do that. I'd like to stay with something natural for now like I said but am not afraid to try one of the safest pro hormones. Non methylated of course. Is there anything natural that can give gains like h-drol , epistane, or p-mag? I don't know a whole lot about pro hormones yet because I'm still looking to completely rule out something natural before I get too far into it.

 

[Snicket63]

Sounds like op is to immature to use anabolics even if he was 25+. Just started eating to gain mass? So you wasted 2 years of traning for no reason? Also op, if your dead set on it I've heard havoc is good, and also you could try xtreme dmz that comes with OTC pct. I would also get some hawthorn berry and milk thistle also. The dmz has some liver supports also so yeah, not incredible strength gains but mass is ehh alright. Stay safe.

 

[rascal14]

Also we eat really well, I am trying to get 3700 calories a day. Both getting 160+ grams of protein. I will look more into the x-gels and anabeta stack. Any other suggestions? Are any of the ones I already mentioned good maybe stacked with something else or each other if it can really help?

 

[Snicket63]

Both 21 and both right around 160. This is our first time actually bulking, we've always tried to just stay cut and had no intention of getting bigger until lately. I just liked the idea of year long gains in a couple months that some people get. But I know that's only if I go with something pretty strong and I don't want to do that. I'd like to stay with something natural for now like I said but am not afraid to try one of the safest pro hormones. Non methylated of course. Is there anything natural that can give gains like h-drol , epistane, or p-mag? I don't know a whole lot about pro hormones yet because I'm still looking to completely rule out something natural before I get too far into it.

Op, don't waste money on non hormonal supps exept creatine, protein in case you don't hit 150-180 g of protein in a day, and some vitamins like six star from Walmart to save money. Also some fish oil caps even tho the six star pack has some fish oil in it.

 

[rascal14]

We just now started eating to bulk.. We've always eaten a lot, just rather low on carbs up until recently.

 

[rascal14]

I forgot to add we are both using Creatine plus protein, vitamins, and a pre workout.

 

[Snicket63]

Also we eat really well, I am trying to get 3700 calories a day. Both getting 160+ grams of protein. I will look more into the x-gels and anabeta stack. Any other suggestions? Are any of the ones I already mentioned good maybe stacked with something else or each other if it can really help?

No x gels. I've seen studies where it doesn't do anything. It's placebo. Also eating well doesn't do anything exept for maybe health. Don't be afraid of fats. I eat 110+ g of fat a day at 3.9k Cals. Anabeta eliete I would try. Sounds good but I rather buy the dmz with pct.

 

[Heisenberg6]

1.5 grams ARA, 9 grams GMS, 2 grams LCLT. Boom there's your stack. Enjoy.

 

[mw1]

ALCAR (helps with absorption)
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART03059/Acetyl-LCarnitine-ALCAR.html
Micronized Glycerol Monostearate will help with absorption and retention among other things
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/synthetic-supplements/micronized-glycerol-monostearate-gms-150-grams.html

Anabeta Elite Anabeta Elite: A combination of Anabeta, Forskolin and 5-Androsten-3B7B-diol-17-one (an active that 7-oxo converts to). Anabeta has numerous reports showing an increase in hunger and test boosting, Forskolin has Human Data showing reduction in body fat and increase in lean muscle mass and the 5-Androsten-3B7B-diol-17-one is there to control cortisol.

X-Gels: Contains Arachidonic Acid. Has Human Data showing increases in strength. It also converts to PGF alpha2 (and other prostaglandins) which is necessary for tissue growth and repair. Combine this with the potential for increased localized inflammation (which facilitates the shuttling of nutrients to the site).

To be honest all the "Legal" PH that are out there will need some kind of SERM and while legal it doesnt sound like the kind of thing you are wanting to dive into and those that dont need a serm and are ok with an OTC PCT like "Max Bulk" are rather expensive but effective if ran properly. This stack can be ran for 50days for about 200bucks and you wont be needing a PCT because you are not adding outside hormones so you wont be shut down at all. This stack is 4 things 3 of which you take mainly in the AM so its simple and will complement your recent increase of calories.

That's why we call Xgels "THE PROHORMONE ALTERNATIVE"

 

[McCrew530]

No x gels. I've seen studies where it doesn't do anything. It's placebo. Also eating well doesn't do anything exept for maybe health. Don't be afraid of fats. I eat 110+ g of fat a day at 3.9k Cals. Anabeta eliete I would try. Sounds good but I rather buy the dmz with pct.

And here is a study that says it does work.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23076795
The time spent in the gym and the amount of food eaten though is truly going to dictate your gains Suplementing just helps.
and if you dont believe me take it from a pro

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1pjY1mDAa8‎[/video]

 

[thegodfather]

Sounds like op is to immature to use anabolics even if he was 25+. Just started eating to gain mass? So you wasted 2 years of traning for no reason? Also op, if your dead set on it I've heard havoc is good, and also you could try xtreme dmz that comes with OTC pct. I would also get some hawthorn berry and milk thistle also. The dmz has some liver supports also so yeah, not incredible strength gains but mass is ehh alright. Stay safe.

I think he's actually taking the more mature route by wanting to prevent health issues by improperly taking anabolics. Does he have a lot to learn? Yes, we all did when starting out. Don't confuse inexperience with immaturity.

 

[McCrew530]

No x gels. I've seen studies where it doesn't do anything. It's placebo. Also eating well doesn't do anything exept for maybe health. Don't be afraid of fats. I eat 110+ g of fat a day at 3.9k Cals. Anabeta eliete I would try. Sounds good but I rather buy the dmz with pct.

Hold on I just really read what you wrote would you mind clarifying what you meant by eating well doesnt do anything except maybe health please?

 

[Matthersby]

3700 cals at 160 should be putting on a tremendous amount of weight. More food, less cardio, protein should be almost twice that much.. Food and heavy lifting and more food.

 

[Snicket63]

Hold on I just really read what you wrote would you mind clarifying what you meant by eating well doesnt do anything except maybe health please?

I'm saying as long as you hit your callories and macros and 160g protein at the least you will be fine. Eating healthy isn't really going to improve body composition. Also don't listen to people saying eat like 250-300g of protein. It's stupid, doesn't do anything extra and if I am correct 25% of the calories you consume from protein are burned but I'm not sure.

 

[Snicket63]

I think he's actually taking the more mature route by wanting to prevent health issues by improperly taking anabolics. Does he have a lot to learn? Yes, we all did when starting out. Don't confuse inexperience with immaturity.

Yeah your right. I really mean he was wasting his time by not eating for 2 years. He completely wasted his Time and he could be very large if e had been doing it right for that time. First 8 months of lifting I went from 140-190 pounds.

 

[pizzadrol]

At 160lbs, 3200 cals (20x body weight) plus a little extra and between 160-240 g's protein (1-1.5g per lb) on average daily has always been sufficient for me to grow. Everyone's different so tossing exact numbers at you won't mean a whole lot. Simply put, you've got a ton of easy gains ahead of you and by all means look forward to it since it'll be the easiest 15-20 pounds you'll ever get being 21 years old. I started cycling earlier than I should have (180lbs) and I know I robbed myself of a good chunk of easy gains that I now regret because I'm the same age and get gains nearly just as easily even when I'm off cycle because we're in our prime and have the ability to build muscle naturally comparably as well as someone older would on AAS.

 

[pizzadrol]

What I mean is, coming from someone the same age of you that has cycled PH's before, don't bother. They work, sure, but not as well as you think they will. Building muscle naturally will never be easier so save hormones for a little down the road when you actually need them.

 

[rascal14]

So why do people say don't bother with anything other than protein and creatine and all that stuff, unless you use something hormonal? Does everything else just not work as well or is there nothing else that is actually proven to work well?

 

[rphash49]

So why do people say don't bother with anything other than protein and creatine and all that stuff, unless you use something hormonal? Does everything else just not work as well or is there nothing else that is actually proven to work well?

Because creatine if used correctly will give you the best results IMO compaired to all other non hormonal products. Plus its pretty Damn cheap. I use SNS creatine mono.

I've also got results with anabeta and x-gels but the results were minor. Others report great results with x-gels so I must be a non responder to ara I guess

 

[pizzadrol]

So why do people say don't bother with anything other than protein and creatine and all that stuff, unless you use something hormonal? Does everything else just not work as well or is there nothing else that is actually proven to work well?

They're the essentials, really. Save your other money for good food since a good diet will give you better results than any of the other products on the market, hands down. Creatine, protein, fish oil, a good multi, and preworkout (last one is preferential) teamed with a heavy and clean diet will bring you a long way.

 

[McCrew530]

They're the essentials, really. Save your other money for good food since a good diet will give you better results than any of the other products on the market, hands down. Creatine, protein, fish oil, a good multi, and preworkout (last one is preferential) teamed with a heavy and clean diet will bring you a long way.

This is very true especially since u are going to be bulking for the first time if u do it correctly you are going to be spending 25-40 bucks a day on food alone but I stand by what I said about the stack I am running It will serve you the same as a mild ph

 

[rascal14]

Are x gels better than X factor? Is it good stacked with DAA? Can you even safely run any of the pro hormones with everything coming from OTC? Or is it still not a good idea?

 

[rphash49]

Are x gels better than X factor? Is it good stacked with DAA? Can you even safely run any of the pro hormones with everything coming from OTC? Or is it still not a good idea?

All of these products have possible side effects. It's recommended to run things solo first to see how your body acts before stacking.

 

[tjbruno]

Food and heavy lifting and more food.

that's the recipe for success right there...

 

[Matthersby]

I'm saying as long as you hit your callories and macros and 160g protein at the least you will be fine. Eating healthy isn't really going to improve body composition. Also don't listen to people saying eat like 250-300g of protein. It's stupid, doesn't do anything extra and if I am correct 25% of the calories you consume from protein are burned but I'm not sure.

Sounds like a lot of ignorant broscience, brah.

 

[rphash49]

Sounds like a lot of ignorant broscience, brah.

That's not even bro science. It's total garbage.

 

[Matthersby]

That's not even bro science. It's total garbage.

I feel like having the word "minds" in the name of this site, should provoke less "don't listen to that, why? cuz it's stupid." remarks and more research-based discussions... But sometimes, not the case.

 

[Rodja]

Sounds like a lot of ignorant broscience, brah.

On the caloric expenditure of protein part, that's actually true. The TEF of protein can be as high as 30%.

 

[Matthersby]

On the caloric expenditure of protein part, that's actually true. The TEF of protein can be as high as 30%.

You're right. 20-35% Why I aim for closer to 400 grams daily. Every person at every weight, age, activity level and metabolism will be different, though. I would never advise someone on how much protein to eat daily though.

 

[Snicket63]

That's not even bro science. It's total garbage.

Actually the opposite is bro science. How is 300g of protein going to return more gains? It seems those callories would be better spent on carbs.

 

[Matthersby]

Actually the opposite is bro science. How is 300g of protein going to return more gains? It seems those callories would be better spent on carbs.

It probably would be better spent on carbs for an active 160 lb 21 year old. For myself, not at all. That's my point.

 

[Snicket63]

It probably would be better spent on carbs for an active 160 lb 21 year old. For myself, not at all. That's my point.

I would rather eat 500+ g of carbs and higher fats than super high protein. I seem to respond differently to carbs. If I don't eat a poptart or fruit before I lift I notice I am a bit weaker. If I don't eat carbs after a workout I notice my muscles are less full.

 

[iparatroop]

Sounds like op is to immature to use anabolics even if he was 25+. Just started eating to gain mass? So you wasted 2 years of traning for no reason? Also op, if your dead set on it I've heard havoc is good, and also you could try xtreme dmz that comes with OTC pct. I would also get some hawthorn berry and milk thistle also. The dmz has some liver supports also so yeah, not incredible strength gains but mass is ehh alright. Stay safe.

The OP is too immature to cycle, yet you're recommending SDMZ with an OTC PCT? Good call, hero.

Op, don't waste money on non hormonal supps exept creatine, protein in case you don't hit 150-180 g of protein in a day, and some vitamins like six star from Walmart to save money. Also some fish oil caps even tho the six star pack has some fish oil in it.

Because all non-hormonal supps are created equal?

No x gels. I've seen studies where it doesn't do anything. It's placebo. Also eating well doesn't do anything exept for maybe health. Don't be afraid of fats. I eat 110+ g of fat a day at 3.9k Cals. Anabeta eliete I would try. Sounds good but I rather buy the dmz with pct.

So much win in this one...not.

I'm saying as long as you hit your callories and macros and 160g protein at the least you will be fine. Eating healthy isn't really going to improve body composition. Also don't listen to people saying eat like 250-300g of protein. It's stupid, doesn't do anything extra and if I am correct 25% of the calories you consume from protein are burned but I'm not sure.

You have to be one of the most ignorant posters that I have seen in quite some time. Eating "healthy" won't help improve body comp? You should stop offering nonsensical advice and do some research on what you're spewing. You're a clown.

 

[Snicket63]

The OP is too immature to cycle, yet you're recommending SDMZ with an OTC PCT? Good call, hero.

Because all non-hormonal supps are created equal?

So much win in this one...not.

You have to be one of the most ignorant posters that I have seen in quite some time. Eating "healthy" won't help improve body comp? You should stop offering nonsensical advice and do some research on what you're spewing. You're a clown.

i didn't mean immature, I meant inexperienced but anyways. Eating healthy wont make you gain more muscle or anything. Srs.


And you've won.... Nothing! Are you happy?

 

[iparatroop]

i didn't mean immature, I meant inexperienced but anyways. Eating healthy wont make you gain more muscle or anything. Srs. And you've won.... Nothing! Are you happy?

Ok. Big difference between maturity and experience level. I would agree that he's not experienced enough (or old enough, for that matter) to consider cycling.
As far as your next "point" is concerned, because the definition of "healthy" eating is always subject to interpretation, in some ways you are correct. Contrarily, a diet skewed too far toward one end of the spectrum won't produce the OP's intended gains. 3kcals worth of Cheetos isn't gonna have the same outcome as 3kcals of turkey breast and broccoli, catch my drift?
My goal is not to win, not here. My goal is to help, and educate. Carry on.

 

[McCrew530]

Are x gels better than X factor? Is it good stacked with DAA? Can you even safely run any of the pro hormones with everything coming from OTC? Or is it still not a good idea?

They are the same substance I believe xfactor was one of the first ara supplements out but xgels can be found for a cheaper price and they are made by a great company. And stacking with Daa wouldn't hurt but at your age I doubt it would do much.
To answer your question an OTC PCT is secondary to a serm when running a pH If you don't want to buy a serm I wouldn't mess with pH's you may gain some weight but u will loose it when u stop taking it because your natural hormones will be so out of whack.

 

[Snicket63]

Ok. Big difference between maturity and experience level. I would agree that he's not experienced enough (or old enough, for that matter) to consider cycling.
As far as your next "point" is concerned, because the definition of "healthy" eating is always subject to interpretation, in some ways you are correct. Contrarily, a diet skewed too far toward one end of the spectrum won't produce the OP's intended gains. 3kcals worth of Cheetos isn't gonna have the same outcome as 3kcals of turkey breast and broccoli, catch my drift?
My goal is not to win, not here. My goal is to help, and educate. Carry on.

I completely agree. I meant he didn't need to eat chicken and brown rice every meal.

 

[rascal14]

They are the same substance I believe xfactor was one of the first ara supplements out but xgels can be found for a cheaper price and they are made by a great company. And stacking with Daa wouldn't hurt but at your age I doubt it would do much.
To answer your question an OTC PCT is secondary to a serm when running a pH If you don't want to buy a serm I wouldn't mess with pH's you may gain some weight but u will loose it when u stop taking it because your natural hormones will be so out of whack.

It's not that I don't want to run one, I just don't know where to get one that is reliable right now. And the ARA you run in 50 day cycles or is it different?

 

[Matthersby]

Honestly, we got off base with this thread. You need to learn more about diet having recently started "eating a lot to get big"
You'll be so much better off doing a lot of reading over the next year or two while dialing in a good bulking diet.

 

[McCrew530]

Honestly, we got off base with this thread. You need to learn more about diet having recently started "eating a lot to get big"
You'll be so much better off doing a lot of reading over the next year or two while dialing in a good bulking diet.

^this knowing what food to eat will help u in the long run. So when u do decide to "supplement" something into your routine you will be able to maximize your gains.

 

[rascal14]

I have a pretty good diet and have been reading on it for a while before I started it. I appreciate all the responses. Still just trying to learn more on what I should consider looking into now for when I'm ready. I would much rather spend a little extra money on something I know would actually give me gains that I could keep, like a pro hormone if done right, then waste it on something like X factor or x gels that may work for me. So what is one of the most mild non methylated ones that has been around a while? And how would it compare to gains on ARA or is it too hard to tell? Also are pro hormones safer than designer steroids?

 

[rphash49]

Also are pro hormones safer than designer steroids?

Smh.

 

[iparatroop]

Also are pro hormones safer than designer steroids?

1. Most "prohormones" are not. They are designer steroids. They are active and don't require conversion to be such. There are non-methylated alternatives that require conversion on the market, and the company I rep for makes some. I will not recommend any of them to you, based on your age.
2. Don't fcuk with your hormones. Stay natty until your t levels start to drop (25-35 for most males). The risk is not worth the reward. You JUST STARTED learning how to eat, try that for a while and enjoy your new guy gains.
3. Thank me in five years, I'll still be here saying the same shlt.

 

[rascal14]

I already knew most things people say are pro hormones are actually designer steroids I just didn't know which was the safer option.