Need advice on first cycle- Epistane

[Aaron330]

Although I'm new to the board, I've been lurking for quite some time, doing 2-3 hours of research a day for the past few weeks. I am also an active member on the steroid.com forums. Since real gear isn't in the cards for me, I've been looking into trying a PH cycle for a while now, and I've read through dozens of threads on this board about other users experience. Most notably, the infamous "How to pulse orals" by Dr. D and the "Pulse method results" threads.

I have decided on trying a 6 week Pulse cycle of Epistane. I was hoping you guys who are more knowledgeable & experienced than myself can give me your advice on the efficacy and safety of this cycle. Based on the research I've done, this is the best cycle I have come up with so far:

Pre-Cycle:
Competitive edge labs - cycle assist (capsules)
Liv52 Liver care

^^^Will start both of these a week or two before the cycle begins and take them throughout the whole cycle including PCT.

PH:
Epistane 6 weeks, taken M/W/F

PCT:
Nolvadex for 4 weeks

So the entire cycle will look like this:

Week 1: Cycle Assist+Liv52 (according to reccomended dosages)
Week 2: Cycle Assist+Liv52+Epi 20mg M/W/F
Week 3: Cycle Assist+Liv52+Epi 30mg M/W/F
Week 4-7: Cycle Assist+Liv52+Epi 40mg M/W/F
Week 8-11: Cycle Assist+Liv52+Nolva 40/30/20/20


Any and all advice is much appreciated. I haven't bought any of these products yet as I'm waiting to hear feedback first. Would anyone recommend throwing in Lean Xtreme in PCT as well? I've read a lot of guys use that in addition to something like Nolva.

My goal is just to gain some quality lean mass and strength. I will be thrilled with anything over a 5 lb gain in weight.

I will also be logging this cycle as well with before and after pics in case anyone is interested.

 

[OnionKnight]

dont pulse epi, just run it straight. pulsing is best suited for quick acting and very toxic steroids like sd, dbol, methyl tren, m1t, m1a, etc. epistane is not a quick acting steroid, it usually takes 3 weeks or so to notice its effects

 

[Aaron330]

Ok, that's definitely worth noting. I've just read sooo many guys who had great results pulsing with epi in the "Pulse method results" thread. Have you had any experience with Epi?

 

[OnionKnight]

Ok, that's definitely worth noting. I've just read sooo many guys who had great results pulsing with epi in the "Pulse method results" thread. Have you had any experience with Epi?

yup. mine were in 15mg caps so my cycle was 30/30/30/45/45/45. if they were 10's, id have gone 30/30/40/40/50/50

ran mine on a cut at about 2200cals a day and still gained 4lbs and a bunch of strength. it was pretty surprising to say the least. my pct was clomid + typical supports like test booster and armistane

took me justuinder 3 weeks to notice the strength gains. and im not good at using the mirror to notice fat loss, so i feel around for new veins to start popping up. around the same tme, i started noticing quite a difference in vascularity. my favorite compound so far. my favorite part is that i actually got a tad stronger during pct. that was a kicker for me

 

[Aaron330]

yup. mine were in 15mg caps so my cycle was 30/30/30/45/45/45. if they were 10's, id have gone 30/30/40/40/50/50

ran mine on a cut at about 2200cals a day and still gained 4lbs and a bunch of strength. it was pretty surprising to say the least. my pct was clomid + typical supports like test booster and armistane

took me justuinder 3 weeks to notice the strength gains. and im not good at using the mirror to notice fat loss, so i feel around for new veins to start popping up. around the same tme, i started noticing quite a difference in vascularity. my favorite compound so far. my favorite part is that i actually got a tad stronger during pct. that was a kicker for me

Wow, that sounds pretty awesome to say the least. I'm planning on eating an extremely clean 4000cals a day while on cycle. Did you run any cycle assist with it? After a little more research, I think I'm going to use Clomid as well PCT in conjunction with Nolva.

Maybe I'll add an extra week. Something like

Clomid 50/40/30/20/10
Nolva 10//20/30/30/20

 

[OnionKnight]

yea i ran all the ancilaries, just didnt feel like going into detail. i preload bulk hawthorne, and ran ai cycle support all the way through. i also have tudca in my stash, but saving it for my sd run

while you certainly can run a strong pct like that, i dont think its completely necesary for just epistane. but if money isnt a problem, then go for it

i would imagine epistane being a badass lean bulker for someone that responds to it as well as i did. ive also been thinking of pulsing sd with it for the first 4 weeks or so. still havnt planned it out all the way yet

 

[Aaron330]

yea i ran all the ancilaries, just didnt feel like going into detail. i preload bulk hawthorne, and ran ai cycle support all the way through. i also have tudca in my stash, but saving it for my sd run

while you certainly can run a strong pct like that, i dont think its completely necesary for just epistane. but if money isnt a problem, then go for it

You're probably right, I just like to play better safe than sorry. I may do Clomid alone then. Do you think running an AI like Erase and DAA would be unnecessary as well, or would you recommend it?

Thanks for all the input btw, it's definitely much appreciated!

 

[OnionKnight]

always run at least an ai with the serm. i used daa + erase with clomid on mine

reason is that epistane has ai effects. so your estrogen will take a dip on cycle. that causes a rebound effect once the cycle ends, which is why rebound gyno is so common from epi cycles. an ai will contol that rebound effect while clomid brings your htpa back.

because of nolvas binding site, it will also protect you from rebound gyno. so its not a bad idea to run both

in my opinion, using both serms is best suited for aromatising compounds because those cause high estrogen on cycle, and even higher coming off cycle. so gyno is a much bigger threat with those

 

[FranARG]

If money is no big issue, go with both, Clomid and Nolva.
Running clomid below 25 is kind of useless, IMO.

 

[harbonah]

If money is no big issue, go with both, Clomid and Nolva.
Running clomid below 25 is kind of useless, IMO.

Not to disagree FranARG but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT.
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html

and OP
I have ran Epistane up to 60mg a day and found my sweet spot to be 40mg. I have ran it up to 8 weeks and loved the whole ride its my favorite DS/PH of all time!! That being said its your first run so take it easy run 6 weeks at 30-40mg do your pct Nolva or Clomid or hell both. Start your AI the end of week 3 of pct run it for 4 weeks so you will come off your SERM or SERMs and onto the AI with another 3 weeks of AI to taper down.

Not to disagree but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html

 

[FranARG]

Not to disagree FranARG but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT.
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html

and OP
I have ran Epistane up to 60mg a day and found my sweet spot to be 40mg. I have ran it up to 8 weeks and loved the whole ride its my favorite DS/PH of all time!! That being said its your first run so take it easy run 6 weeks at 30-40mg do your pct Nolva or Clomid or hell both. Start your AI the end of week 3 of pct run it for 4 weeks so you will come off your SERM or SERMs and onto the AI with another 3 weeks of AI to taper down.

Not to disagree but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html

Cool study

 

[Aaron330]

always run at least an ai with the serm. i used daa + erase with clomid on mine

reason is that epistane has ai effects. so your estrogen will take a dip on cycle. that causes a rebound effect once the cycle ends, which is why rebound gyno is so common from epi cycles. an ai will contol that rebound effect while clomid brings your htpa back.

because of nolvas binding site, it will also protect you from rebound gyno. so its not a bad idea to run both

in my opinion, using both serms is best suited for aromatising compounds because those cause high estrogen on cycle, and even higher coming off cycle. so gyno is a much bigger threat with those

Very good info. Looks like I will be running Clomid+Nolva and Erase DAA. I'll spend whatever money necessary to make sure I don't get any rebound gyno lol

 

[Aaron330]

Not to disagree FranARG but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT.


and OP
I have ran Epistane up to 60mg a day and found my sweet spot to be 40mg. I have ran it up to 8 weeks and loved the whole ride its my favorite DS/PH of all time!! That being said its your first run so take it easy run 6 weeks at 30-40mg do your pct Nolva or Clomid or hell both. Start your AI the end of week 3 of pct run it for 4 weeks so you will come off your SERM or SERMs and onto the AI with another 3 weeks of AI to taper down.

Not to disagree but it seems to work at 25 mg even for TRT

This is exactly what I was looking to find out, thanks man.

So I'll go with

Clomid: 50/40/30/30
Nolva: 0/20/30/20/20
Erase+DAA 0/0/0/X/X/X/X

X= whatever the recommended dosage would be for those

 

[mw1]

This is exactly what I was looking to find out, thanks man.

So I'll go with

Clomid: 50/40/30/30
Nolva: 0/20/30/20/20
Erase+DAA 0/0/0/X/X/X/X

X= whatever the recommended dosage would be for those

That PCT is a bit overboard for a Epi cycle. Nolva @ 20/20/20/20 with DAA at 3g a day will be enough

 

[Aaron330]

That PCT is a bit overboard for a Epi cycle. Nolva @ 20/20/20/20 with DAA at 3g a day will be enough

Ok, wasn't sure on the Nolva. I'll run the clomid at that dosage but bring the nolva down to 20/20/20/20. Couldn't remember the recommended dosage on that.

 

[mw1]

Ok, wasn't sure on the Nolva. I'll run the clomid at that dosage but bring the nolva down to 20/20/20/20. Couldn't remember the recommended dosage on that.

You misunderstood what I was saying ~ two serms are NOT needed for a Epi pct.
Nolva by itself with a natty test booster would be fine

 

[Aaron330]

You misunderstood what I was saying ~ two serms are NOT needed for a Epi pct.
Nolva by itself with a natty test booster would be fine

Eeehhh....I know you're probably right, but I'm just way too wary of gyno. I'd rather spend an extra 50$ to make myself sleep easier at night. What kind of natty test booster would you recommend?

Would going Comid+Erase&DAA+Natty booster still be overkill?

 

[mw1]

Eeehhh....I know you're probably right, but I'm just way too wary of gyno. I'd rather spend an extra 50$ to make myself sleep easier at night. What kind of natty test booster would you recommend?

Would going Comid+Erase&DAA+Natty booster still be overkill?

What you need to understand is more does not equal better. Squashing estrogen thru multiple pathways can hurt your recovery more than help
Go with Nolva plus DAA or other natty test booster and you will be fine

 

[Aaron330]

What you need to understand is more does not equal better. Squashing estrogen thru multiple pathways can hurt your recovery more than help
Go with Nolva plus DAA or other natty test booster and you will be fine

Ok, that actually makes sense. Would you start the DAA at the beginning of the PCT, or start it week 3 with the ERASE?

 

[FranARG]

What you need to understand is more does not equal better. Squashing estrogen thru multiple pathways can hurt your recovery more than help
Go with Nolva plus DAA or other natty test booster and you will be fine

But Nolva DOES NOT squash estrogen, it only competes for the attention of estro receptors in breast tissue.

 

[Aaron330]

^^^ exactly why I'm going with Clomid instead. I should be fine with Clomid + Erase + DAA. I just don't understand how Epistane can give you gyno if its supposed to help cure gyno?

 

[FranARG]

Generally, gyno induced Epi happens as rebound gyno, this is, after cycle.
Also, in some rare cases, gyno flares can happen on cycle. I got leaky nipps while on Epi, and had to take caber. Actually, I am running an Epi + Stano cycle right now, and I am taking Caber .25mg E3D, but that is just me..

 

[Aaron330]

Good to know, might wanna have some of that on hand just in case. Is Caber specifically for leaky nipps? I've read a couple of places that Epi may induce swollen/leaky nipples but that it is NOT gyno, just separate symptoms that will go away. That will be a comforting thought if I get any of those symptoms while on cycle lol.

 

[mw1]

But Nolva DOES NOT squash estrogen, it only competes for the attention of estro receptors in breast tissue.

what do you think Nolva/clomid and Erase together will do??
Perhaps your cycle and pct is why you have had "issues" in the past

 

[mw1]

Good to know, might wanna have some of that on hand just in case. Is Caber specifically for leaky nipps? I've read a couple of places that Epi may induce swollen/leaky nipples but that it is NOT gyno, just separate symptoms that will go away. That will be a comforting thought if I get any of those symptoms while on cycle lol.

No its prolactin related. You can use Caber or an OTC product like Inhibit P ...but I seriously doubt you would need it for Epi

 

[Aaron330]

No its prolactin related. You can use Caber or an OTC product like Inhibit P ...but I seriously doubt you would need it for Epi

Yea, I'll probably just speed order some online if I have any of those symptoms. Have you ever done an epi cycle, and if so what were your results?

 

[mw1]

Yea, I'll probably just speed order some online if I have any of those symptoms. Have you ever done an epi cycle, and if so what were your results?

Yes and I actually ran an OTC PCT. Inhibit E and Activate Extreme with some trib.
At 30-40 mgs for 4-6 weeks you should see a gain of 5-8 lbs with a decrease in bf. The important thing is to continue with diet, training etc thru pct. Many people do great on cycle then just get slack in pct .
Have you done any previous cycles?

 

[Aaron330]

Yes and I actually ran an OTC PCT. Inhibit E and Activate Extreme with some trib.
At 30-40 mgs for 4-6 weeks you should see a gain of 5-8 lbs with a decrease in bf. The important thing is to continue with diet, training etc thru pct. Many people do great on cycle then just get slack in pct .
Have you done any previous cycles?

That sounds good. How long was your cycle? Looks like I should be good to go with the PCT cycle I have listed. No, I have never done a cycle before. I've been at a plateau for this entire year.

I don't understand how this is possible, but I've been on a pretty extreme bulk now since May (4-5k clean cals a day, 5 days a week in the gym). I get extremely sore, and get a ton of sleep and recover very fast, yet I don't seem to put on weight. I'm just a typical hardgainer with a super fast metabolism I guess. I'm 6 1', and started the bulk at 191 lbs, got up to 195, and over the past 3 weeks I've slowly fallen back down to 190. I've been working out for 10+ years, and I'm a personal trainer, so I don't think my problem is not knowing how to put on weight. This kind of routine works like magic for all my athletes and other clients who want to bulk up. They put on weight fast doing what I do, so that's why I've decided to up the ante and try a few cycles to break through this plateau. Looking forward to the results!

 

[Aaron330]

Hey mw1 and OnionKnight. I sent you each a pm but there's nothing showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you received it or not.

 

[FranARG]

what do you think Nolva/clomid and Erase together will do??
Perhaps your cycle and pct is why you have had "issues" in the past

I dont see how Nolva, clomid and erase can give leaky nipps....

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I just think pulsing epi is such a waste. I don't see any real benefits from running it that way, and I see multiple negative aspects.

 

[Aaron330]

I just think pulsing epi is such a waste. I don't see any real benefits from running it that way, and I see multiple negative aspects.

I've been steered away from pulsing. I'll be running it straight instead.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I've been steered away from pulsing. I'll be running it straight instead.

Oh fantastic...I must have missed that part, I thought I read the whole thing...but I've been up since 7:30 am soooooo....lol

 

[Aaron330]

Oh fantastic...I must have missed that part, I thought I read the whole thing...but I've been up since 7:30 am soooooo....lol

LOL no hard feelings

 

[Aaron330]

One more question for you guys- Do you think Himalaya Liv52 is enough for liver protection? Or should I get Organ Shield as well? I'm also thinking about loading Hawthorne Berry for 2 weeks prior and running throughout too. What do you guys think?

 

[Aaron330]

Bump for advice please

 

[rphash49]

One more question for you guys- Do you think Himalaya Liv52 is enough for liver protection? Or should I get Organ Shield as well? I'm also thinking about loading Hawthorne Berry for 2 weeks prior and running throughout too. What do you guys think?

Either one should be fine with epi. If you want to add an extra level of protection add tudca. Loading Hawthorne berry also wouldn't hurt.

 

[Aaron330]

perfect, thanks man!

 

[doggy_dog]

In the same boat as you, Aaron.
Planning my first cycle of Epi with Clomid for PCT.

I'm just terrified of gyno. Especially cuz I think I may be a little high on the estrogen end to begin with. (I tend to store fat in the hip and chest area.)

To all of those with experience, if someone runs a proper PCT are the chances slim that gyno can present?
Or can gyno come up regardless of how well a cycle is executed?

 

[Aaron330]

From what I've read the percentage chance of you getting Gyno are very low doing a proper PCT, But obviously you can't just excuse it altogether. I've actually read numerous guys say that You can have Gyno symptoms appear, But then go away after your PCT is done.

 

[rphash49]

From what I've read the percentage chance of you getting Gyno are very low doing a proper PCT, But obviously you can't just excuse it altogether. I've actually read numerous guys say that You can have Gyno symptoms appear, But then go away after your PCT is done.

What they thought they saw was probably water retention and not gyno. Gyno doesn't just go away. Water retention is unlikely with epi but rebound gyno symptoms can still happen even after a properly ran pct

 

[Aaron330]

What they thought they saw was probably water retention and not gyno. Gyno doesn't just go away. Water retention is unlikely with epi but rebound gyno symptoms can still happen even after a properly ran pct

What are some of the gyno symptoms to look out for?

 

[mw1]

Most people's "symptoms" are paranoia

 

[Aaron330]

Most people's "symptoms" are paranoia

Well great...I've already got that symptom ?

 

[harbonah]

Well great...I've already got that symptom ?

Steroids can increase paranoia also, how do you like that monkey wrench lol.

Being ADHD I have a lot of the odd side effects. So I've found a lot of what works for anxiety, too much aggression "impulsive behaviour" so on. St johns wort, 5htp and P5p work well together.

Don't worry about gyno with Epistane on cycle you probably have better odds of getting struck by lightning. In PCT you will be fine if you use a SERM followed by tapering an AI I like formastane myself for this.. :thumbup:

 

[harbonah]

**** I hope that made sense grammar on a cellphone can be a pain..

 

[Aaron330]

Steroids can increase paranoia also, how do you like that monkey wrench lol.

Being ADHD I have a lot of the odd side effects. So I've found a lot of what works for anxiety, too much aggression "impulsive behaviour" so on. St johns wort, 5htp and P5p work well together.

Don't worry about gyno with Epistane on cycle you probably have better odds of getting struck by lightning. In PCT you will be fine if you use a SERM followed by tapering an AI I like formastane myself for this.. :thumbup:

LOL. That's comforting to know. That's exactly what I'm planning on doing. I am using Clomid as my SERM and tapering with Erase as my ai, and taking DAA on top of that. So I'm not too worried about it. I should be good to go. I'm more worried about liver damage to be honest. I can't wait to get started though and post my log about the cycle. Hoping to come out of it with some awesome gains. I've been at a pretty epic plateau for a year now, so if Epi can get me past it I will be impressed.

 

[s0briquet]

Hey Aaron,

I've been lurking around these forums for about a month now, trying to learn-up and figure out what would be proper for my first cycle. I noticed that we seemed to be in very similar situations in terms of stagnation in training and body type - I'm 6'4 hard gainer, been training regularly for about 5 years, and from feb-june I was going 4500k per day to finally reach 192lb for a few weeks, but then lost it all back to 17x-ish due to stuff beyond my control/not being able to eat enough each day.

Anyhow. Reading around, and reading this thread got me to think that I would like to mimic the same cycle that you'll be starting off with. Have you actually started yet? If you care to, it would be great if you could share the brand-specifics about what you are picking up, as well as the full layout of what you've decided for your cycle (it's a little muddled with all the different opinions through this thread) - and maybe we can run the cycle at the same time/give feedback to each other?

If you're willing/interested, great! If not, no prob and good luck on your cycle.

 

[Aaron330]

Hey Aaron,

I've been lurking around these forums for about a month now, trying to learn-up and figure out what would be proper for my first cycle. I noticed that we seemed to be in very similar situations in terms of stagnation in training and body type - I'm 6'4 hard gainer, been training regularly for about 5 years, and from feb-june I was going 4500k per day to finally reach 192lb for a few weeks, but then lost it all back to 17x-ish due to stuff beyond my control/not being able to eat enough each day.

Anyhow. Reading around, and reading this thread got me to think that I would like to mimic the same cycle that you'll be starting off with. Have you actually started yet? If you care to, it would be great if you could share the brand-specifics about what you are picking up, as well as the full layout of what you've decided for your cycle (it's a little muddled with all the different opinions through this thread) - and maybe we can run the cycle at the same time/give feedback to each other?

If you're willing/interested, great! If not, no prob and good luck on your cycle.

Yea man, I think that would be a good idea. I'll PM you since we're not allowed to talk about some of that stuff on the board

 

[Aaron330]

In the meantime, why don't you get your post count up to at least 10. I think you need it at 5-10 posts before you can message other users. Could be wrong but do it just in case