Havoc

[Rocktown]

Hey guys,

i know that there are other posts covering this, but I am getting a lot of conflicting info so I'm hoping to ad some order to things. I'm 29 I lifted four four years took two years off and now I've been back at it for a year and a half. The gains just aren't coming as fast as they use to. So I am thinking about doing a cycle of havoc. I have organ guard while on and recycle for pct. what I'm looking for is advice on diet while on cycle and any other pointer on how to maximize my FIRST cycle.

 

[macdady]

If you need to ask about diet then don't cycle lol. You need to have your diet on point to maximize your cycle
And your pct needs more work as well recycle is nice but you need a serm mister.
Lay out your cycle in full please (I hope you can)

 

[Rocktown]

Havoc 20/30/30/40
Dhea- 200 mg through whole cycle
Organ guard whole cycle
Multi vitamins
Vitamin d 1000 ( already have low levels. I work outside wth?)

Breakfast
30g protein shake upon waking
4 eggs and bacon or sausage

9 am

20g protein bar
Granola (home made)


Lunch

2 turkey sandwiches on eziekle bread with lettuce and tomato.
Avocado

pre-workout
Tuna salad
And creatine

Post work out
60 G protein shake

Diner
I usually go crazy. And eat a lot of chicken or beef. Dinner is my dirty meal.

Almost all of my foods are organic or home grown. I make my shakes with almond milk.

Pct

I was just counting on recycle. I thought havoc was mild enough to not need a serm. That's why I'm checking on here before I start.

That is pretty much my diet now. I do cheat one day a week. I eat clean for several reasons. My whole family does. Don't know I my diet needs any improvent.

Training is very typical 4 days a week and I do crossfit ( with eavy ass weight) twice a week. Rest on Sundays. I try to get 8+ hours of sleep a night.

I work construction so I'm moving all day. Thanks for any input. I weigh in at 200 lbs now. Just trying to look fuller and harder not trying to add 20 lbs or anything.

 

[Rocktown]

Oh yeah fish oil. Two pills with breakfast pre-workout and dinner.

 

[macdady]

I'm not a believer in dhea unless your over like 35. Too many studies showing it to do nothing IMO lol... you need a serm and a AI and a test booster. This isn't a PH anyway its a active steroid. I'd stack it with stano starting at 800 then go up from there if needed
20mgs of epi is a waste. Just start at 30
I'd say do some more research on your cycle before you do it... and as far as diet goes if you aren't eating enough epi will tell you on its own haha I get hunger as **** on it. Also keep water intake up really high, being in construction myself I found it very hard to keep hydrated on my cycle lol

 

[harbonah]

I'm not a believer in dhea unless your over like 35. Too many studies showing it to do nothing IMO lol... you need a serm and a AI and a test booster. This isn't a PH anyway its a active steroid. I'd stack it with stano starting at 800 then go up from there if needed
20mgs of epi is a waste. Just start at 30
I'd say do some more research on your cycle before you do it... and as far as diet goes if you aren't eating enough epi will tell you on its own haha I get hunger as **** on it. Also keep water intake up really high, being in construction myself I found it very hard to keep hydrated on my cycle lol

DHEA has many health benefits and it will help if there is any lethargy on cycle. I like it to be honest but only really as an addition to s cycle. Or for females it will have a much more pronounced anabolic effect.

 

[Matthersby]

I'm not a believer in dhea unless your over like 35. Too many studies showing it to do nothing IMO lol... you need a serm and a AI and a test booster. This isn't a PH anyway its a active steroid. I'd stack it with stano starting at 800 then go up from there if needed
20mgs of epi is a waste. Just start at 30
I'd say do some more research on your cycle before you do it... and as far as diet goes if you aren't eating enough epi will tell you on its own haha I get hunger as **** on it. Also keep water intake up really high, being in construction myself I found it very hard to keep hydrated on my cycle lol

^this^ exactly this.
Try eating more too.

 

[macdady]

DHEA has many health benefits and it will help if there is any lethargy on cycle. I like it to be honest but only really as an addition to s cycle. Or for females it will have a much more pronounced anabolic effect.

I don't deny it has health benefits just not in younger people

 

[Rocktown]

Ai and test booster? I'm probably going to sound like a complete noob, but will t-bomb work or do I need something more. I really thought I had done my research, but apparently not. I thought havoc would be a very simple cycle.
As far as eating more, on cycle or now. I'm already gaining a little abdominal fat that was never there before. That's why I started doing crossfit. I was running but it stopped my gains completely. Maybe I shouldn't have ran so far. Lol

 

[Matthersby]

Being a steroid, no matter how 'mild' you will stop producing your own testosterone at some point. This causes LOTS of potential issues and side effects.
There are reasons you should have an AI
There are reasons you should have a SERM
There are reasons you should have ancillary support.
This goes for any and every PH/DS/OS

 

[macdady]

Ai and test booster? I'm probably going to sound like a complete noob, but will t-bomb work or do I need something more. I really thought I had done my research, but apparently not. I thought havoc would be a very simple cycle.
As Dara's eating more, on cycle or now. I'm already gaining a little abdominal fat that was never there before. That's why I started doing crossfit. I was running but it stopped my gains completely. Maybe I shouldn't have ran so far. Lol

Lol t bomb can work. We all end up recommending DAA just cause its simple and proven and erase for a AI. Id suggest you search all the havoc cycles here and look at em lol should get a really good idea as to what you should do

 

[macdady]

Being a steroid, no matter how 'mild' you will stop producing your own testosterone at some point. This causes LOTS of potential issues and side effects.
There are reasons you should have an AI
There are reasons you should have a SERM
There are reasons you should have ancillary support.
This goes for any and every PH/DS/OS

Yup and yup lol

 

[Matthersby]

Lol t bomb can work. We all end up recommending DAA just cause its simple and proven and erase for a AI. Id suggest you search all the havoc cycles here and look at em lol should get a really good idea as to what you should do

DAA and Torem and it's possible to continue making gains in PCT.

 

[Rocktown]

As I said before I don't know anyone that is "in the know". I thought I had picked a cycle that would be very basic and simple so I wouldn't have any problems. What ever I use will have to be OTC or Internet. So I have done some more research should I use 6oxo while one cycle? Still don't know what OTC pct? I really appreciate you guys helping me. I don't want to f*** my self up. But I would also like to get back to where I was four years ago. Thanks.

 

[Matthersby]

As I said before I don't know anyone that is "in the know". I thought I had picked a cycle that would be very basic and simple so I wouldn't have any problems. What ever I use will have to be OTC or Internet. So I have done some more research should I use 6oxo while one cycle? Still don't know what OTC pct? I really appreciate you guys helping me. I don't want to f*** my self up. But I would also like to get back to where I was four years ago. Thanks.

Research chemicals. For lab rats of course...

 

[harbonah]

As I said before I don't know anyone that is "in the know". I thought I had picked a cycle that would be very basic and simple so I wouldn't have any problems. What ever I use will have to be OTC or Internet. So I have done some more research should I use 6oxo while one cycle? Still don't know what OTC pct? I really appreciate you guys helping me. I don't want to f*** my self up. But I would also like to get back to where I was four years ago. Thanks.

OTC = over the counter. Use your 6 oxo starting week 3 of pct of your SERM of choice.

Search for Tamoxifen research and peptide Google should give you something that way I would think.

 

[Rocktown]

Would clomid plus recycle be enough?

 

[Rocktown]

What's should be my dosage on a liquid?

And dumb question, the liquid is to be taken orally right? I'm sure it is judging by the bottle it comes in.

 

[maybe0123]

Havoc 20/30/30/40
Dhea- 200 mg through whole cycle
Organ guard whole cycle
Multi vitamins
Vitamin d 1000 ( already have low levels. I work outside wth?)

Pct

I was just counting on recycle. I thought havoc was mild enough to not need a serm. That's why I'm checking on here before I start.

That is pretty much my diet now. I do cheat one day a week. I eat clean for several reasons. My whole family does. Don't know I my diet needs any improvent.

Training is very typical 4 days a week and I do crossfit ( with eavy ass weight) twice a week. Rest on Sundays. I try to get 8+ hours of sleep a night.

I work construction so I'm moving all day. Thanks for any input. I weigh in at 200 lbs now. Just trying to look fuller and harder not trying to add 20 lbs or anything.

.

If I were you I would do it like this:

Take your vit D as necessary
Havoc 40/40/40/40/40/40
Multi vit
Hawthorn berry extract 1g daily, preload 5 days prior to cycle start
Tudca at 500mg for the last 4 weeks
Stano at 800/800/800/800/1000/1000

Pct:
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Daa 3g daily
Creatine 5g daily

And I would have either adex or exemestane on hand incase things get ugly

 

[Rocktown]

My havoc came in the mail today. Which means I would have started taking it today if it weren't for you guys. Now I am waiting for my tamoxifen and until I can get some better on cycle support. Thanks guys you probably saved me from doing some damage. I'll post after My cycle to tell results. But first I need to get the right stuff.

 

[FranARG]

It is very good you heard what the other guys said. Epi is a great compound, but it WILL cause serious trouble unless you do things right in terms of PCT.

Good luck!

 

[h2oh2o]

I got off Havoc epistane a month ago. I went from 172 to 185 in a month. This was with a bad diet. I did 20mg for the first week then did 30mg the rest. I tried 40mg in the last week. 30mg was the cutoff. At 40mg my piss starting turning brown. Havoc was awesome!!! My bench went from 205 to 275 max at 4 weeks!!!! No lie.
My only problem was with my PCT. You got to get either clomid or an OTC test booster along with your serm, etc. I had what I thought was a test booster for the first 3 weeks and lost almost all my weight I gained.

 

[FranARG]

I got off Havoc epistane a month ago. I went from 172 to 185 in a month. This was with a bad diet. I did 20mg for the first week then did 30mg the rest. I tried 40mg in the last week. 30mg was the cutoff. At 40mg my piss starting turning brown. Havoc was awesome!!! My bench went from 205 to 275 max at 4 weeks!!!! No lie.
My only problem was with my PCT. You got to get either clomid or an OTC test booster along with your serm, etc. I had what I thought was a test booster for the first 3 weeks and lost almost all my weight I gained.

Clomid is a SERM. And in case you were not implying that it is not, it is also safe to throw in some DAA while using clomid.
Also, did you use a SERM? Not adding a natural test booster into your PCT will not produce the total loss of gains in terms of weight that you suffered. You either:
a) did not use a SERM
or
b) your SERM was bunk.

Either way, hope you have better luck next time..

 

[benjwg]

Stacked Havoc with Androhardv3 ... AMAZING results.... nearly took on about 16lb for my first ever cycle.

The havoc screwed me up, lowered my immune system so bad...I was 21 and managed to get Shingles on my last week on cycle... LOL.. kept about 9LB by the time I managed to get back in the gym...

wont touch it again... personal preference.... I know it wont do that to everyone

 

[macdady]

Stacked Havoc with Androhardv3 ... AMAZING results.... nearly took on about 16lb for my first ever cycle.

The havoc screwed me up, lowered my immune system so bad...I was 21 and managed to get Shingles on my last week on cycle... LOL.. kept about 9LB by the time I managed to get back in the gym...

wont touch it again... personal preference.... I know it wont do that to everyone

Damn lol that blows

 

[kaikara]

I got off Havoc epistane a month ago. I went from 172 to 185 in a month. This was with a bad diet. I did 20mg for the first week then did 30mg the rest. I tried 40mg in the last week. 30mg was the cutoff. At 40mg my piss starting turning brown. Havoc was awesome!!! My bench went from 205 to 275 max at 4 weeks!!!! No lie.
My only problem was with my PCT. You got to get either clomid or an OTC test booster along with your serm, etc. I had what I thought was a test booster for the first 3 weeks and lost almost all my weight I gained.

Funny username to post content ratio... if your pee was brown, you weren't drinking enough. Plain and simple. It's very easy to get dehydrated on cycle. Ask me how I know.... I got kidney stones on an SD cycle because I wasn't drinking enough.

 

[macdady]

Funny username to post content ratio... if your pee was brown, you weren't drinking enough. Plain and simple. It's very easy to get dehydrated on cycle. Ask me how I know.... I got kidney stones on an SD cycle because I wasn't drinking enough.

Have you gone through his posts? This guy is everywhere just got off epi a month ago jumps onto a SD clone then wants to go from SD to injecting sust 2 weeks into his cycle cause he isn't seeing the gains he wants lol

 

[kaikara]

Have you gone through his posts? This guy is everywhere just got off epi a month ago jumps onto a SD clone then wants to go from SD to injecting sust 2 weeks into his cycle cause he isn't seeing the gains he wants lol

Ha! No, I didn't go through his posts. If that's the case, I'd go with the second option... liver failure.

 

[benjwg]

Isnt seeing gains? isnt gonna be seeing his nads soon. lol... GL

 

[macdady]

Ha! No, I didn't go through his posts. If that's the case, I'd go with the second option... liver failure.

Haha yeah I have a habit of going through posts right before a insult someone just in case they don't deserve it and have a brain... he seemingly doesn't I see liver failure and also limp dick lol

 

[h2oh2o]

Funny username to post content ratio... if your pee was brown, you weren't drinking enough. Plain and simple. It's very easy to get dehydrated on cycle. Ask me how I know.... I got kidney stones on an SD cycle because I wasn't drinking enough.

My pee didnt turn brown till the last week. I was drinking more than 2 gallons a day. I chalk it up to that 40mg was taking a toll on my liver. When I went back to 30 it started looking better.

 

[h2oh2o]

Have you gone through his posts? This guy is everywhere just got off epi a month ago jumps onto a SD clone then wants to go from SD to injecting sust 2 weeks into his cycle cause he isn't seeing the gains he wants lol

Hahaha....this is funny! I got 25 posts to date since last year! This sounds like I am everywhere. I posted 2 topics!!

This is the problem with forums these days. You took the time to look up my posts before "insulting" but yet didnt take the time to help me out with your experience.. Thanks man!

Im stopping my clone not because im not seeing my gains I WANT, it is becuase I am not seeing anything at all.

To those that are wonderings about my nuts so bad! My boys are doing just fine!

I ran Havoc. Loved it so much I bought another bottle for later because it is discontinued now. Thought I would give some input on it.

 

[h2oh2o]

Clomid is a SERM. And in case you were not implying that it is not, it is also safe to throw in some DAA while using clomid.
Also, did you use a SERM? Not adding a natural test booster into your PCT will not produce the total loss of gains in terms of weight that you suffered. You either:
a) did not use a SERM
or
b) your SERM was bunk.

Either way, hope you have better luck next time..

Yes I know clomid is a serm. I said to get Clomid to help raise test levels and a long with another serm like Nolva.

I used Tamoxofen citrate tabs for a month during pct.

 

[FranARG]

Cool. Yeah, I use clomid along with Nolva to do just that, but idk if it helps that much haha.

 

[h2oh2o]

Cool. Yeah, I use clomid along with Nolva to do just that, but idk if it helps that much haha.

Better safe than sorry. I was always told that if you dont get your natural test right from the start you will lose your gains.

 

[doggy_dog]

PH noob checking in.

Can someone tell me why an AI is needed while already taking a SERM PCT?
Dont they both have similar purposes?

Thanks

 

[macdady]

PH noob checking in.

Can someone tell me why an AI is needed while already taking a SERM PCT?
Dont they both have similar purposes?

Thanks

Sort of lol
Here read this
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/serm_and_ai_sticky

 

[doggy_dog]

Sort of lol
Here read this
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/serm_and_ai_sticky

Good read, thanks!

Now i know the difference, but since I'm a little simple, I still don't know why both would be required during PCT.
Is it because SERMs just block the receptor yet AI's actually inhibit the conversion into estrogen (thereby reducing estrogen before it even reaches the receptor)?

Wouldn't just a SERM on its own be sufficient?

 

[macdady]

Good read, thanks!

Now i know the difference, but since I'm a little simple, I still don't know why both would be required during PCT.
Is it because SERMs just block the receptor yet AI's actually inhibit the conversion into estrogen (thereby reducing estrogen before it even reaches the receptor)?

Wouldn't just a SERM on its own be sufficient?

Lol I think that's your homework assignment but yeah basically serms block while you hpta is starting up and the AI kills excess when testosterone production is back up and it starts to aromatise I believe.. but there is a lot more to it... just Google your question
"Why take a AI and serm in pct" and you will have a lot to read lol

 

[Rocktown]

Ok guys I had to hold off on my havoc because of an injury. Why take it if I can't go 100% right? I got my nolva and I'm ready to go. I am running conquer the gauntlet (a 4 mile obstacle course) with some friends at the end of the month so I will be running to get geared up for it. What do you guys think about cardio on havoc. I know it raises bp but what do you guys think?

 

[FranARG]

Havoc can give you bad back and calf pumps. Last cycle I could not even play a soccer match...so I would not use it in your case.

 

[harbonah]

I never had a BP issue with it and I do have that issue on a lot of DS /pH cycles I'm just prone to it...that being said it was never that bad for my cardio honestly the best thing for cardio I have tried is Furuza and 11oxo, well they didn't help my cardio but they did not hurt it either.

 

[Rocktown]

Thanks. I've waited this long I might just wait until after the race. That will give me a little more time to get back to where I was before I jacked my hand up. Even though I really want to start now so I can start tearing the gym up.

 

[Rocktown]

Ok guys started my havoc today. I'm starting at 198.7 lbs ill let you know where I end up at and how it goes.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I don't know why people are so obsessed with bodyweight.....positive changes in body composition is what really matters. If you add scale weight and its not fat, great....if you recomp or get really cut up, great....there is way too much emphasis on weight. Everybody is different, from 5'4" to 6'4" etc....and all manner of bone structures from small to large...weight doesn't mean shyt. not anybody, just a random rant that ended up here

 

[harbonah]

I don't know why people are so obsessed with bodyweight.....positive changes in body composition is what really matters. If you add scale weight and its not fat, great....if you recomp or get really cut up, great....there is way too much emphasis on weight. Everybody is different, from 5'4" to 6'4" etc....and all manner of bone structures from small to large...weight doesn't mean shyt. not anybody, just a random rant that ended up here

Oh I mostly agree, but with a few obvious exceptions.. I used to fight so making weight was the goal at that time and make weight for light heavy for a contest etc..

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Oh I mostly agree, but with a few obvious exceptions.. I used to fight so making weight was the goal at that time and make weight for light heavy for a contest etc..

yes the only exceptions are when you are trying to make weight for a fight or competition (but then again we are not speaking in relative terms with gaining on cycle vs. cutting for a competition)....and of course when you are a teen or early 20's guy who weighs 125 lbs soaking wet . That is why I was going to add "past a certain point".....that point being your first 30-40 lbs on your skinny ass that many of us had to put on, while using a scale daily (or hourly lol).

 

[Rocktown]

I personally pay far more attention to the mirror then the scale. As I mentioned at the beginning o this thread I have pretty good body composition. I have had a small amount of abdominal fat show up that hasn't been there in the past, but I guess that's part of getting older. So I figure weight is the best way to convey progress via text. But yes my goal is to add lean mass. F#€k what I weigh as long as I add goo weight and strength.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I personally pay far more attention to the mirror then the scale. As I mentioned at the beginning o this thread I have pretty good body composition. I have had a small amount of abdominal fat show up that hasn't been there in the past, but I guess that's part of getting older. So I figure weight is the best way to convey progress via text. But yes my goal is to add lean mass. F#€k what I weigh as long as I add goo weight and strength.

That is the problem, you can't convey body composition on the internet (w/o pics that is)....but you can type out a weight and BF%....but damn, big boned guys weigh a lot more than small boned guys when they have identical musculature. Then the smaller boned guy is made to feel inadequate due to there being a 20 lb or more discrepancy in bone weight. Much of this game is keeping your BW in a certain zone, and changing body composition....or even maintaining what you got...very little time is spent actually gaining muscle, or we'd all look like Kai Green or something

 

[Rocktown]

Agreed. I'm 6'1" and 198. People are usually surprised when I tell them what I weight because they think I weigh more. I work construction, my weight can literally change 5lbs by the end of the day during the summer. Just from water weight. If you always worried about the scale you would drive yourself crazy. To me it's all about looking good and being strong as hell.