havoc weight gain

[sw333zy]

Hey everybody... I wanted to ask yall ur opinions on this. I used to lift for about two years and quit. Never got above 175. I had dropped down to 160..I been lifting again for about 4 months and said screw it and started a havoc cycle. Now when a week before I started I was 176 now at a week into the cycle im 190..any ideas as to y so fast???? I know its not fat. Ive been checking my percentages rigerously and have been holding steady at 10.5 to 11.5 each day. Macros tend to be 30 30 30 and some change depending on the day. Thanks fellas.

 

[srblan]

Water.

 

[REALDEAL012]

Probably glycogen retention and a little water. Epi is a dry compound so shouldn't be a ton of water though. Don't worry cause I am up about 15 pounds too 3 weeks in and I am cutting.

 

[justmechillin]

How much has your strength gone up? Lift heavy, eat good and get plenty of rest and use proper pct and KEEP hitting the weights after cycle....

 

[REALDEAL012]

How much has your strength gone up? Lift heavy, eat good and get plenty of rest and use proper pct and KEEP hitting the weights after cycle....

Mine has gone way up. Granted, I am squatting and dead lifting way more frequently and alot more intense.

 

[sw333zy]

Probably glycogen retention and a little water. Epi is a dry compound so shouldn't be a ton of water though. Don't worry cause I am up about 15 pounds too 3 weeks in and I am cutting.

Thats what I was thinking but since its dry I was a little worried as to what exactly was going on since at this rate I'd likely end up well over 200 by the end of the run. Filling out nicely tho. 15 pounds on a cut is crazy too so Yeah Ima stop worrying about it and enjoy the ride....thanks

 

[sw333zy]

How much has your strength gone up? Lift heavy, eat good and get plenty of rest and use proper pct and KEEP hitting the weights after cycle....

I dont really feel like my strength has gone up much at all at the moment though I do here that epi kicks in at about 3 weeks. Im currently at 30mg so I am going to bump it up to 40 tommoro for the begining of week 2. Muscles are filling out nicely tho thats all likely glycogen n water as someone pointed out on the extreme weight gain...Should I be expecting all this weight to come right back down during pct??

 

[Matthersby]

Epistane is one of the best PH/DS ever created. I believe its always been a little underrated. I ran a testostetone-only cycle for 10 weeks and my results were similar to a 5 week epi run. Limited sides, fantastic strength increases, strong, dry gains and if PCT is strong you don't lose much, if anything.

 

[sw333zy]

Epistane is one of the best PH/DS ever created. I believe its always been a little underrated. I ran a testostetone-only cycle for 10 weeks and my results were similar to a 5 week epi run. Limited sides, fantastic strength increases, strong, dry gains and if PCT is strong you don't lose much, if anything.

Good to know. Havent seen any sides as of yet. Thinking of goin 5 weeks too. Probably 40/40/50/50 for these next four weeks. Have nolva on hand and some lean extreme for pct...looking for a good natural test booster on top of that if you or anyone else have some suggestions.

 

[justmechillin]

I dont really feel like my strength has gone up much at all at the moment though I do here that epi kicks in at about 3 weeks. Im currently at 30mg so I am going to bump it up to 40 tommoro for the begining of week 2. Muscles are filling out nicely tho thats all likely glycogen n water as someone pointed out on the extreme weight gain...Should I be expecting all this weight to come right back down during pct??

I loose about half of the weight that I gain while on a Epi cycle. 40mg is a good dose... Wal-Mart has ALA 200mg/100 count for $7, your liver will thank you for it. 200mg B6 is about $3 also and they work great together. B6 helps your liver convert protein into amino acids instead of poision while its dealing with any oral methyl...

 

[Matthersby]

I'm running EPI/M-LMG
40/40/40/40/40
100/100/100/100/100

PCT: Torem/DAA.

Grab some hawthorn berries, Omegas and liver support blend with a lot of Milk Thistle in it. Bp, elevated liver enzymes, LDL>HDL are the main issues if you go over 4 weeks.

 

[sw333zy]

I loose about half of the weight that I gain while on a Epi cycle. 40mg is a good dose... Wal-Mart has ALA 200mg/100 count for $7, your liver will thank you for it. 200mg B6 is about $3 also and they work great together. B6 helps your liver convert protein into amino acids instead of poision while its dealing with any oral methyl...

Ill definatly b on the lookout for the ala...alass no walmart within 20miles Ill have a look at cvs or something...The b6 sounds good and all but please enlighten me...On my multivitamin it says 3mg is 150 pct daily value. 200mg would be over 2000...that much is necessary?

 

[sw333zy]

I'm running EPI/M-LMG
40/40/40/40/40
100/100/100/100/100

PCT: Torem/DAA.

Grab some hawthorn berries, Omegas and liver support blend with a lot of Milk Thistle in it. Bp, elevated liver enzymes, LDL>HDL are the main issues if you go over 4 weeks.

Taking omega 369s and liv 52 at the moment. Hawthorn berrys tommoro...Would this suffice? Thanks for the help

 

[Matthersby]

Ya... looks good. Just avoid tylenol , alcohol, etc to limit excess strain on the liver. Drink lots of water. Enjoy!

 

[sw333zy]

i'd go 6 weeks on the epi if ur not having bad sides. epi is great overall. i gain 20lbs on it ever time i run it but i dont get big strength increases from it. not like sd or tren ace or m1t. i'm in week 6 right now. started at 182lbs and was 201.2 this morning. everybody says its dry but it gives me water retention every time. even with diet spot on and few carbs. only sides i ever get is joint pain. i went up to 60mg for 2 weeks but its too much really,joint pain and some insomnia. dropped back down to 45mg for the last 2 weeks which is just right. next time i'm gonna run it 40mg straight through. the sh1t is so mild on me that i can go 8 weeks with no problem. i dont even get that much testicular atrophy. bounce back quick on the nolva.

Definatly thinking about it. I figure if the the sides stay in check and im still seeing gains there is no reason not to. Though I wouldnt go past 6..my luck is never the best...No real strength gains?? Not too thrilled there as thats the way I seem to be heading.

 

[Matthersby]

Definatly thinking about it. I figure if the the sides stay in check and im still seeing gains there is no reason not to. Though I wouldnt go past 6..my luck is never the best...No real strength gains?? Not too thrilled there as thats the way I seem to be heading.

Everyone responds differently. Sides vs. Overall strength gains AND weight gain, Epi is in my top 3. I notice strength gains in the first week. And I've ran it 6 weeks several times. Just gotta be keep BP and liver function in check.

 

[justmechillin]

Epistane is one of the best PH/DS ever created. I believe its always been a little underrated. I ran a testostetone-only cycle for 10 weeks and my results were similar to a 5 week epi run. Limited sides, fantastic strength increases, strong, dry gains and if PCT is strong you don't lose much, if anything.

Man, I couldn't agree with you more! Now a 100mg T-cyp a week with a small dose of Epi (20-30mg) is all 1 needs 2 get huge... When on test, the Epi will feel 3x stronger than by itself...

 

[Lhns2]

500 weekly cyp here starting mrsupps epi tomorrow. Excited now that I hear these gains have been nuts on epi. Just looking to cut down a bit.

 

[REALDEAL012]

500 weekly cyp here starting mrsupps epi tomorrow. Excited now that I hear these gains have been nuts on epi. Just looking to cut down a bit.

Well I was too but even at under maintainable cals, I put on 14 pounds in two weeks. BP has been way up and I can ever feel water retention in my fingers and especially my face. Strength is through the roof but that wasn't really my goal.

 

[sw333zy]

Little update here...Im going into my 3rd week tommoro weight has gone up to 194 and held steady throughout the week. Im trying to get past 200 that way any losses during pct would in my mind likely leave me in the 190s.. Havent noticed any more size deferences the last week either. The first week was ridiculous and actually left me with a couple stretch marks. I wish I knew why it seems like Ive hit a wall but same time any gains ive made over the last week likely cannot compare to the first. Though this may also be attributed that this week I simply did full body workouts rather than my usual split. Strength has gone up slightly 5-15 pounds depending on the lift...May cut this short at 4 weeks if gains do not go back up.

 

[kaikara]

Eat more food and you'll start gaining again. Cutting short wouldn't be very beneficial. Even if you don't gain anymore, there are benefits to running the whole six weeks. It gives time for the gains you did make to solidify so you won't lose them as easily in pct.

 

[REALDEAL012]

Alright boys, have some questions for you.

This morning I stepped on the scale at 254.. Thats up 20 pounds in only 28 days. My strength gains have been absolutely stupid, but thats not my main concern. I HAVE to get leaner and everything pointed towards Epi/Stano to do that. Last week I ate about 2200kcal a day and still didn't lose a pound. Thats almost 2k under my maintenance and I woke up heavier this week? WTF? I am noticing stretch marks in my anterior delts/upper chest, and my khaki shorts all make me look like a damn fat ass cause my legs are so huge.

Obviously twenty pounds is not muscle nor is it fat that quickly, especially since my intake has been so low, but wtf is going on? Will my PCT really dry me out that damn much? The math just doesn't add up. I ate so low in calories last week, played tennis hard about 5 times, HIIT cardio as well, lifted 4 days, kept protein up, and I still look softer today than I did a month ago. This is my first cycle so I am just real confused as this is not what I was expecting.

 

[rphash49]

Alright boys, have some questions for you.

This morning I stepped on the scale at 254.. Thats up 20 pounds in only 28 days. My strength gains have been absolutely stupid, but thats not my main concern. I HAVE to get leaner and everything pointed towards Epi/Stano to do that. Last week I ate about 2200kcal a day and still didn't lose a pound. Thats almost 2k under my maintenance and I woke up heavier this week? WTF? I am noticing stretch marks in my anterior delts/upper chest, and my khaki shorts all make me look like a damn fat ass cause my legs are so huge.

Obviously twenty pounds is not muscle nor is it fat that quickly, especially since my intake has been so low, but wtf is going on? Will my PCT really dry me out that damn much? The math just doesn't add up. I ate so low in calories last week, played tennis hard about 5 times, HIIT cardio as well, lifted 4 days, kept protein up, and I still look softer today than I did a month ago. This is my first cycle so I am just real confused as this is not what I was expecting.

Based on your weight and calorie intake I would say you are an endomorph. I have used epi to cut and it worked well while still gaining strength. For an endomorph you unfortunately have to work really hard to cut. I did read your above activities from last week but to take it up a notch: how structured is your routine, what part of the day are you training, how long are you training, how clean is your diet, how many times a day do you eat(3 times or 6 times), how long do you sleep, how well do you sleep, how is your stress level, etc.

I have a few buddies that have been working out for years and can not lose a pound. The reason is usually something I listed above. Why my buddies can't lose weight? Because they have not committed themselves to it. Give me some details and I'm sure we can figure it out

 

[REALDEAL012]

Speaking of pct.. Starting today. Blood pressure was getting too high, retaining too much water for liking and I couldn't sleep worth ****.

4 weeks of epi 30/40/40/40, Stano 600/800/800/100

Torem at 120/60/60/30
3G DAA
Molecular Nutrition Test Factor
Erase 0/0/4/3/2/1
Creatine
And I have bulk forskolin laying around I will probably use.

Look good?

 

[maybe0123]

Speaking of pct.. Starting today. Blood pressure was getting too high, retaining too much water for liking and I couldn't sleep worth ****.

4 weeks of epi 30/40/40/40, Stano 600/800/800/100

Torem at 120/60/60/30
3G DAA
Molecular Nutrition Test Factor
Erase 0/0/4/3/2/1
Creatine
And I have bulk forskolin laying around I will probably use.

Look good?

U dont need to taper erase and 6 weeks is alot better than 4

 

[rphash49]

Speaking of pct.. Starting today. Blood pressure was getting too high, retaining too much water for liking and I couldn't sleep worth ****.

4 weeks of epi 30/40/40/40, Stano 600/800/800/100

Torem at 120/60/60/30
3G DAA
Molecular Nutrition Test Factor
Erase 0/0/4/3/2/1
Creatine
And I have bulk forskolin laying around I will probably use.

Look good?

Rather than dropping the cycle why not just lower the stano dose or drop it all together. If after a few days after lowering/dropping stano if your pb is still to high drop to 30mg epi. Epi for me comes on strong weeks 5 and 6 with most of my lean mass and strength gains coming in those weeks. and you have already come this far. Are you using any pb supports?

 

[justmechillin]

Good to know. Havent seen any sides as of yet. Thinking of goin 5 weeks too. Probably 40/40/50/50 for these next four weeks. Have nolva on hand and some lean extreme for pct...looking for a good natural test booster on top of that if you or anyone else have some suggestions.

Hypertest, DAA and ZMA

 

[justmechillin]

Speaking of pct.. Starting today. Blood pressure was getting too high, retaining too much water for liking and I couldn't sleep worth ****.

4 weeks of epi 30/40/40/40, Stano 600/800/800/100

Torem at 120/60/60/30
3G DAA
Molecular Nutrition Test Factor
Erase 0/0/4/3/2/1
Creatine
And I have bulk forskolin laying around I will probably use.

Look good?

You could drop back down to 30mg on Epi and 400 on the stano... FYI- I couldn't sleep for sh!t on stano above 400mg. B6/Mag work good for BP and as a mild diuretic.

 

[REALDEAL012]

Trust me, 6 weeks was what I wanted to do, but I don't think I was handling the stuff well and I did make great strength gains in only four weeks, so it wasn't for nothing. My blood pressure was getting dangerously high for my liking, spiking at 150/125 at some points, I was retaining so much water my fingers and face were fat, I couldn't sleep at all, my GF continues to comment how "small my balls" are and it is obvious she doesn't like it, and being that I am only about to turn 22, I want to make sure I get all of these sides subsided and properly recovered before I try something else out at a later date.

Edit: And I had dropped down to 30/600 the last about 4 days to see if it would impact my BP at all, and it didnt. For someone who has had fantastic BP in the past, always lower than 110/70, this high of a spike with my active lifestyle is just not something I wanted to mess around with.

 

[justmechillin]

Trust me, 6 weeks was what I wanted to do, but I don't think I was handling the stuff well and I did make great strength gains in only four weeks, so it wasn't for nothing. My blood pressure was getting dangerously high for my liking, spiking at 150/125 at some points, I was retaining so much water my fingers and face were fat, I couldn't sleep at all, my GF continues to comment how "small my balls" are and it is obvious she doesn't like it, and being that I am only about to turn 22, I want to make sure I get all of these sides subsided and properly recovered before I try something else out at a later date.

150/125! WTF! Yes, abort cycle and get some ZMA for the next few months along w/ your other pct. Leave the creatine alone till BP drops back down to normal also.

Edit: And I had dropped down to 30/600 the last about 4 days to see if it would impact my BP at all, and it didnt. For someone who has had fantastic BP in the past, always lower than 110/70, this high of a spike with my active lifestyle is just not something I wanted to mess around with.

150/125! WTF! Yes, abort cycle and get some ZMA for the next few months along w/ your other pct. Leave the creatine alone till BP drops back down to normal also.

 

[REALDEAL012]

Why would creatine affect my blood pressure? The water retention causing the spike for the same reason as the PH?

 

[drewsicle3210]

A little l-dopa, gaba, and phenibut will get you right to sleep. (G8 by Finaflex)

 

[justmechillin]

Why would creatine affect my blood pressure? The water retention causing the spike for the same reason as the PH?

That is what Im figuring and I know that creatine runs my BP up when loading on the c.r.a.p, and it wont help lower yours right now... Your BP should be good in 1 week around the same time your weight drops back down some.

 

[REALDEAL012]

So seeing my PCT plan following the cycle, how long do you think decent recovery of the boys should take? At what point do you start to question if the stuff is bunk, seeing that this is a modest cycle at most?

 

[drewsicle3210]

So seeing my PCT plan following the cycle, how long do you think decent recovery of the boys should take? At what point do you start to question if the stuff is bunk, seeing that this is a modest cycle at most?

What brand are you using?

 

[REALDEAL012]

Ain't gonna name sources.

 

[drewsicle3210]

Ain't gonna name sources.

Oh yeah, my bad. I was thinking about the epi in my head. Getting these threads confused!!

 

[drewsicle3210]

Wait, you can name epi sources bro, its OTC

 

[drewsicle3210]

Don't sweat it though, better safe than banned!

 

[REALDEAL012]

Oh my bad.. Thought you meant what I was gonna use for research. It was Havoc and Stano-200

 

[Matthersby]

Oh my bad.. Thought you meant what I was gonna use for research. It was Havoc and Stano-200

Haven't heard of any brand of Epi ever being under dosed or bunk so always good there. Its dirt cheap and reliable..

 

[REALDEAL012]

No bros, I started my PCT. I was asking when I would know if the Torem was working or not

 

[drewsicle3210]

No bros, I started my PCT. I was asking when I would know if the Torem was working or not

Right on. Totally missed that. I have no clue how to tell if it is legit or not. I guess if gyno appears than that is one way, granted it would be a ****ty way to learn.

 

[REALDEAL012]

Well I got it from a reputable place, it's just that this was my first cycle so I don't know what to expect for PCT and serms.

 

[Matthersby]

No bros, I started my PCT. I was asking when I would know if the Torem was working or not

If you are moody, libido is struggling a bit, you haven't lost an absurd amount of strength, and it tastes like a nasty chemical covered up with bubble gum or whatever flavor, its probably legit. Check your inbox.

 

[Matthersby]

Well I got it from a reputable place, it's just that this was my first cycle so I don't know what to expect for PCT and serms.

Also. There is no such thing as overkill for PCT. Although I know my research chems are legit, I don't take any chances with my long term hormonal health. Whether its a little 4 weeker that didn't even shut me down or a 16 week multi-compound run, I run a good SERM as a base and add in whatever I know will help. DAA is a must. I highly recommend L-dopa in the form of Mucuna Pruriens. I keep HCG on hand just in case I 'crash' and I can blast a couple thousand IU's to reboot LH/FSH. And run it low dose on any cycle over 10 weeks once I'm shut down. There are all sorts of other OTC goodies that will simply make pct a seamless transition back to gaining naturally instead of a depressing loss of all of your newfound beast-like gains....

 

[REALDEAL012]

Thanks, brother. I appreciate all that help.

 

[Matthersby]

hey man, i'm curious about l-dopa. i know its popular so what benefit does it have? that NOW brand is priced right so i'm thinking about picking some up.

While it has NO effect on stimulating LH or increasing Testosterone whatsoever, it does have several effects that would be very beneficial during PCT considering it can be a tough time with the mood swings, lack of motivation and loss of strength. It will certainly increase well-being(those of us who respond like I do to Clomid know its an unpleasant emotional ride) because of Dopamine and can help with lbm support as well as fat loss(something not advised to shoot for during PCT but if it comes as a side effect, BONUS!) A lot of people lose all their gains in PCT not always because of lowered Test but because of lack of motivation, depression, poor sleep, moodiness, frustration with strength stagnancy, ego-damaging libido problems and much more.
Here:
L-Dopa is the remarkable precursor for the needed and beneficial*neurotransmitter dopamine.* Clinically proven, it is one of the few substances that crosses the blood brain barrier,*converting*into Dopamine,*and thereby stimulatiing the hypothalamus and pituitary to release*and increase the the level of*growth hormone in the body.* Dopamine also regulates motor control, sex drive, immune function, fat gain and loss, lean muscle gain, bone density, energy levels, and the ability to sleep soundly.

 

[sw333zy]

Alright another update. I decided to taking everyone heres advice and go for 6 weeks. I'm sure glad you guys advised against cutting this cycle short at 4 weeks because my strength has shot through the roof. Started off benching 210 215 10 times for 3 sets now I'm up to 260. My other lifts have gone way up as well. So I have a couple questions. Will I be able to make some more sizeable size gains or definition in the next two weeks or will it be mainly strength? Had to buy another bottle of epi in order to do the next couple weeks. Would uping the dosage do me any justice or is it not much of any help at this point. Currently running 40mg. Thinking 50 or 60. Thanks again for everyones help and support.

 

[drewsicle3210]

There has been a buzz on the late about running Epi at doses much higher, like 90-100.
I am following a log on another forum where a very reputable and successful physique competitor and trainer is running 100mg Epi daily. No sides, daily body composition changes, ridiculous strength gains while at a deficit preparing for a show.
I vote for at least 80mg, and I am pretty sure I will be running Epi at doses close to or at 100mg.


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