MOHN/MDIEN Combo dosage ?
- 12-27-2004, 08:11 PM
- 12-27-2004, 09:28 PM
- 12-27-2004, 10:20 PM
I like that for your weight. Are you exp'd with either of these previously? If not, I'd start lower and work up. Those are good doses alone, so together you might use less. Remember the mixing methyl risks, too.
12-27-2004, 10:31 PM
Im 5'7, 172 and I hope to be around 185 after my SuperDrol cycle. At what dosages would this stack work for me. I have one experience with PH, an S1+ cycle.
12-28-2004, 09:07 AM
I have done cycles of 1test, 1AD, M1,4ADD, etc. before. I have not used MOHN or MDIEN before. My understanding was that MOHN was a mild methyl, I have read that MDIEN is not so mild on the liver. I will be on a calorie restricted diet as I begin to prep for a possible April show.
Any other thoughts?
12-28-2004, 09:10 AM
I should also add that i am 6'4", have trained seriously for 6 years, am 29, and have done a bunch of cycles in the past. Diet and training are in check, just curious as to what a solid dosage would be foer stacking MOHN/MDIEN. Seen a bunch on just MOHN, not the two combined.
12-28-2004, 09:23 AM
I was doing a very similar stack in the summertime, 9mg m-dien per day along with 24mg m4ohn. My only word of warning for you is to keep an eye out for gyno symptoms, I suffered a nasty flareup that had me lactating, and left a lump behind that I've been unable to shrink with nolva, adactrim, absolved plus 3-alpha, etc. It just showed up one day when I did a self exam, with no prior warning signs of puffiness, itching, pain, etc., but once it was there for a few days those signs finally popped up. Even with starting nolvadex therapy as soon as the lump appeared, the nolvadex did nothing to shrink the lump back down.
12-28-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by max silver
Do you think that m-dien was responsible for the gyno? Lactating sounds terribly bad.
12-28-2004, 10:27 AM
I wish I knew which compound to blame. I didn't start the m4ohn until a few weeks into the cycle, and within 4 or 5 days of starting m4ohn, the gyno reared it's ugly head. That's my own fault for trying two new compounds at once, but I thought that with nolvadex on hand, I'd be safe if problems did show up.
I've been using m4ohn in a cutting cycle for the last 3 weeks with no problems, but I've been dosing nolvadex at 20mg/day since the start of the cycle, as I'm not taking any chances in further lump formation beyond what I already have.
As far as the lactating goes, it's pretty disconcerting to say the least. I remember on of the more terrifying dreams I ever had was one where my nipples were really hurting, and upon squeezing one, a whitish fluid came out. It really sucks when your worst fears are realized.
12-28-2004, 11:21 AM
Max - I am sorry to hear that man, that really sucks.Originally Posted by max silver
Gunz - From my own experience and because of what was just said, I would def recommend using Nolva throughout....I got some symptoms of gyno from a M4OHN cycle a while back and that was on 20mgs of Nolva a day. The doses look good to me but if I were you id take precautions.....better safe than sorry and if youre cutting up, the anti-e's will help you keep dry and ripped.
12-28-2004, 01:12 PM
wow, horror stories...thanks for the great info, will most likely use nolva throughout because of your insight...any more horror stories or are these isolated incidents, thanks again
12-28-2004, 01:17 PM
P.S. - I was under the impression that since MOHN is so closely related to Decca, aromitization issues were almost nil? Also, the research i've seen on MDIEN indicate a very small chance of estrogenic sides, any further info or thoughts?
12-28-2004, 01:22 PM
That's exactly the same impression that I had of the compounds, so imagine my shock and horror when gyno just showed up out of nowhere. There's most likely something else to blame with gyno and these compounds, whether that's progesterone, prolactin, or what I can't say for certain, but the danger is certainly real.
12-28-2004, 01:35 PM
I don't know the cause but at the time I thought it was based on the fact that the low conversion theories were based on the low doses recommended (8-16mgs M4OHN). I was running around 50mgs throughout, give or take. Like I said, I dont know the reason, but this was my assumption at the time.
12-28-2004, 01:53 PM
Increased dosing levels would certainly throw the initial data out the window. Although in my first time out with m4ohn, I was still not too terribly high in dosing levels at 24mg/day, but it could have been the combo of m-dien and m4ohn that caused me to have problems.
12-28-2004, 02:06 PM
guys nandrolone increases progestone / has a progestrogenic effect and increases prolactin. what it does is makes you extemley estrogen sensetive, and eve low dosages will cause gyno
I'm planning to add bromo or ru 486 if I can get it to my nandrolone related cycles
check out this thread:
12-28-2004, 02:15 PM
I neglected to mention that I've been running bromo myself during my current m4ohn cycle, 1.25mg before bed. I just can't afford to take any more chances with even more gyno. What I have isn't that bad really, mostly puffy nipples, which look good sometimes, and like **** at other times, but it still bugs the **** out of me.
I've heard mention of ru 486 before, but am unfamiliar with the specifics of the compound. Do you have any more information on the stuff you can share?
12-28-2004, 03:31 PM
its a progestrone blocker. the only sepcific one I know, used as an abortion pill. very tough to get unless youre an abortion doctor or know chinese
Im looking for it myself
how is the bromo going with the mohn? thats realy interesting. any other compounds? also what is your chest fat levels?
12-28-2004, 03:44 PM
I'm using nolvadex at 20mg/day, as well as a bit of 1-test transdermal I need to use up sometime, while it still has at least some potency remaining.
It's hard to say for certain whether the bromo is having any effect or not, it hasn't reduced the already existent puffiness, but things haven't gotten any worse at a fairly high dosage of m4ohn, so it seems like it must be doing something. I don't have much chest fat of which to speak, I tend to store most of my fat around the midsection instead.
12-28-2004, 04:07 PM
allow me to ask some more questions to see if I can deduce anything for myself
how much mohn?
what kind of cycle? (cutter/bulker etc)
12-28-2004, 04:22 PM
12-28-2004, 06:23 PM
are doses of mohn at or below 20 mgs combined w/mdien at or below 12 mgs likely to cause any gyno related problems? i have heard of many people using these compounds with little to no sides. thoughts?
12-28-2004, 06:40 PM
I read what Lyle had to say and I think that in OUR case (supplemented ;-)) we should take the bromo in divided doses with the M40HN.
what do you think?
12-28-2004, 07:35 PM
I suspect you may be correct on that account, I had just been taking the bromo at night in order to avoid the side effects, which for myself include lethargy, runny nose, congestion, etc. By taking the entire dose before I go to sleep I've been able to avoid those, as I'm sleeping when the product is at it's peak blood levels.
12-28-2004, 07:43 PM
yes but dopamine should be lowered at night and highest at the morning to help with fat burning and mood- OTOH m4ohn messes with DA receptors in a good way
how do we balance all this, I guess trial and error... :-)
how is youre sleep/mood/fat burning going with the aforementioned combo?
12-28-2004, 07:48 PM
I sleep like a baby on bromo, I recall reading somewhere that it tends to clear out blood glucose, which puts me to sleep in relatively short order. As far as mood goes, I love this aspect of m4ohn perhaps more than any other aspect, I feel great throughout the day, with tons of energy and genuinely good mood. Fat burning is humming along nicely as well, especially since last week when I dropped my calories below what they were the previous 2 weeks.
I think I'll give a 1/4 tab of bromo a go, taken with my first meal of the day. I've found that I've experienced no nausea from bromo, perhaps since I'm always sure to take it with a meal. I do tend to have a pretty strong stomach most of the time though, so I might not be the best test subject in that regard.
12-29-2004, 01:13 AM
Side note... "A Friend" has a ton of Cabergoline... I know it relatively works the same as Bromo... would this be effective for the same terms as bromo for what you all are looking for??? Resist Gyno and all.
12-29-2004, 01:36 AM
If memory serves correctly, cabergoline is much more effective than bromo is, and with a lower incidence of side effects, as well as requiring dosing only every few days to be effective. My problem has been finding this stuff at a halfway reasonable price, the brand name dostinex is criminally overcharged in North America, and I don't know if there's a generic version available here yet.
12-29-2004, 03:38 AM
Cabaser... in 1, 2, or 4 Mg Tabs...Originally Posted by max silver
Seems like the 1 Mg tabs X 20 = $75 - $100
not sure on the rest.
12-29-2004, 06:02 AM
Max: looking forward to hear results. I'm planning an MOHN/bromo cutter in two months myself.
DAdams91982:maybe a dumb question but I'll chance it
where did that "friend" get his?
you can PM me if you want (or not)
BTW I live in europe so no legal problems here :-)
12-29-2004, 07:24 AM
12-29-2004, 08:58 AM
12-29-2004, 09:22 AM
12-29-2004, 09:34 AM
****, I'm not in Europe, but wouldn't mind a PM as well. My supplier charges in the neighbourhood of 200 dollars for 8 tablets of dostinex, which is pretty frickin' outrageous.
12-29-2004, 10:45 AM
Ive been researching the subject quite religeously today
apparently it was debated in the context of deca only cycles or deca/fina and the like
here are some interesting comments:
first of all here is a research that shows that cabergoline reduces progesterone
(women suffering from hyperprolactinemia returned to ovulate)
eintein1905:Cabergoline in the long-term therapy of hyperprolactinemic disorders.
Ferrari C, Paracchi A, Mattei AM, de Vincentiis S, D'Alberton A, Crosignani P.
Endocrine Unit, Ospedale Fatebenefratelli e Oftalmico, Milan, Italy.
The efficacy and safety of the new long-acting dopamine agonist cabergoline were evaluated in 127 hyperprolactinemic patients (124F and 3M; 71 with microprolactinoma, 14 with macroprolactinoma, 5 with operated macroprolactinoma and 37 with idiopathic disorder) who were treated with the drug for from 3 to 52 months (median, 14 months). Cabergoline was administered orally at dose levels ranging between 0.2 and 3.5 mg per week, given once weekly in 92 patients, twice weekly in 22, thrice weekly in 9 and daily in 4. Serum prolactin and progesterone levels, hematology, blood chemistry and electrocardiograms were frequently evaluated throughout treatment. CT or MR imaging of the pituitary was repeated during treatment in patients with macroprolactinoma and in 38 with microprolactinoma. After drug discontinuation, serum prolactin and gonadal function were evaluated monthly for three months in 65 patients and for up to two years in 12. Serum prolactin levels were normalized in 114 patients (90%). Of 56 women with amenorrhea, 52 resumed menses (with presumptive evidence of ovulation in 49); 17 women became pregnant; and sexual potency was restored in the 3 men. Evidence of tumor shrinkage was obtained in 13 of the 14 patients with macroprolactinoma and in 28 of 38 with microprolactinoma; complete disappearance of the tumor image was achieved in 2 macro and 14 microprolactinomas. A total of 48 adverse events was reported by 29 patients (23%), almost all typical of the pharmacological class and mild to moderate; no patient withdrew from treatment due to adverse events. Safety parameters did not change. Following cabergoline discontinuation, prolactin levels increased slowly, being still markedly lower than pretreatment values after three months; 10 patients out of 32 had persistently normal prolactin levels during one year of follow-up.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
looks like if we add an androgen (thus self-defeating the sideless cycle point) it will help what's the most side less androgen? M5AABut again, you're neglecting the cases where gyno occurs in which people are using only deca. This situation will leave an abnormally low systemic estrogen level but eill dramatically elevate prolactin levels.....gyno ensues (of course not always). Prolactin is a big player in the picture. All studies aside, people that formerly saw gyno while using deca and test, who then used B6 at 200 mg/day on a subsequent cycle with the same compounds, had no issues with gyno symptoms.
it's common play to add B6 to all progestin-containing cycles now, and it's made a significant difference in the occurrences of gyno
so bobo suggests this:Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.
Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.
There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion
einstein1905:But Deca (progestins in general) upregulate the ER (because of the drop in T(1) so the amount needed is very small and prolactin and/or progesterone will only make situation worse. Also IGF-1 might be more of a culprit as Tren and Deca show a much more profound effect on increasing hepatic IGF-1 than most other androgens (Tren being the highest). SO when you look at all the theoretical possibilities, prolactin and/or progesterone do not have much of a direct effect in th whole situation and your best best is still Nolva. Estrogen, GH and IGF-1 are more the culprti than anything. We also aren't even taking into account that hyperprolactinemia is often associated with secondary hypogonadism, so in essence those people that think its Deca (or any progestins action) on the PR are probalby mistaken.
As far as B6, I've seen many use it have zero effects and that is concurent with most published data. As for it being common place, I see it being more a myth than anything.
Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression
JIAN ZHOU, SIU NG, O. ADESANYA-FAMUIYA, KRISTIN ANDERSON and CAROLYN A. BONDY1
Developmental Endocrinology Branch, NICHD, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA
the probelm is extrapolating the deca knowledge to MOHN, which throws a wrench in our wheels because it it must be androgenic to some extent(based on pure feel, bad I know), the question is how and how muchI don't want to give the wrong impression here. Nolva is a staple of any cycle IMO. There is nothing but an advantage to blocking estrogenic activity at the breast...nolva has also been implicated in reducing localized IGF-1 synthesis, so can therefore be assumed to have yet another indirect effect locally.
As for the B6, most that have "used" it and said it didn't work, have done so in the fashion one would use bromo, as a treatment for developed symptoms. it's far less potent than bromo, so it's a rather poor treatment....as a preventative (ideally with nolva), it's very effective....certainly moreso than not using it.
ideally, proviron, nolva and B6 would be used with a cycle containing a progestin. Even if prolactin turns out to be a weak factor at the breast, it still has an inhibitory role on HPTA and is a dopamine receptor antagonist, which has more global problematic effects....there is no benefit to elevated prolactin, so using a rather benign means to control it is a good idea.
You bring up a really good point in that androgens help decrease prolactin levels, hence deca only cycles being a horrendous idea, since they provide no significant androgenicity themselves and also suppress most all endogenous androgens at the same time.....the result= an androgen-deprived, hyperprolactinemic environment that's just asking for a number of problems
True, increased prolactin would never be good but generally androgens reduce prolactin anyway so it shouldn't be much of a case in most cycles (although there are always exceptions). I agree with your mindset in that preventing problems is always best but I thnk that most of the evidence points to levels not being that much higer than normal and the situation is worsened because of the upregulation of the ER and drop in total T. But I think at this point we're speculating anyway.....a cheap preventitive is alwyas wise in any case.
regardless of protecting ourselves with da agonists, nolva, b6 etc (btw I love a little estrogen in my cutter - thats just me no estrogen at all kills my brain and joints, just keep it down to normal levels)
so maybe the best course is to run MOHN with either an androgen like MDHT, M5aa, 5aa or 3aa (scary) or a small dose 4ad (gasp, on a cutter ;-)) combined with just the right amount of 6-oxo and/or add some LH stimulators/SHBG reducers like tribex, avana sativa and long jack to the mix
what do you all think?
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