GUNZOFNAVARONE
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quick question,i am planning a 6 week cycle of MOHN/MDIEn at 24mgs MOHN and 12mgs MDIEN. I am 242 lbs. Too high or Low, any input?
Thanks
GUNZ
Thanks
GUNZ
I was doing a very similar stack in the summertime, 9mg m-dien per day along with 24mg m4ohn. My only word of warning for you is to keep an eye out for gyno symptoms, I suffered a nasty flareup that had me lactating, and left a lump behind that I've been unable to shrink with nolva, adactrim, absolved plus 3-alpha, etc. It just showed up one day when I did a self exam, with no prior warning signs of puffiness, itching, pain, etc., but once it was there for a few days those signs finally popped up. Even with starting nolvadex therapy as soon as the lump appeared, the nolvadex did nothing to shrink the lump back down.
Max - I am sorry to hear that man, that really sucks.I wish I knew which compound to blame. I didn't start the m4ohn until a few weeks into the cycle, and within 4 or 5 days of starting m4ohn, the gyno reared it's ugly head. That's my own fault for trying two new compounds at once, but I thought that with nolvadex on hand, I'd be safe if problems did show up.
I've been using m4ohn in a cutting cycle for the last 3 weeks with no problems, but I've been dosing nolvadex at 20mg/day since the start of the cycle, as I'm not taking any chances in further lump formation beyond what I already have.
As far as the lactating goes, it's pretty disconcerting to say the least. I remember on of the more terrifying dreams I ever had was one where my nipples were really hurting, and upon squeezing one, a whitish fluid came out. It really sucks when your worst fears are realized.
Cabaser... in 1, 2, or 4 Mg Tabs...If memory serves correctly, cabergoline is much more effective than bromo is, and with a lower incidence of side effects, as well as requiring dosing only every few days to be effective. My problem has been finding this stuff at a halfway reasonable price, the brand name dostinex is criminally overcharged in North America, and I don't know if there's a generic version available here yet.
eintein1905:Cabergoline in the long-term therapy of hyperprolactinemic disorders.
Ferrari C, Paracchi A, Mattei AM, de Vincentiis S, D'Alberton A, Crosignani P.
Endocrine Unit, Ospedale Fatebenefratelli e Oftalmico, Milan, Italy.
The efficacy and safety of the new long-acting dopamine agonist cabergoline were evaluated in 127 hyperprolactinemic patients (124F and 3M; 71 with microprolactinoma, 14 with macroprolactinoma, 5 with operated macroprolactinoma and 37 with idiopathic disorder) who were treated with the drug for from 3 to 52 months (median, 14 months). Cabergoline was administered orally at dose levels ranging between 0.2 and 3.5 mg per week, given once weekly in 92 patients, twice weekly in 22, thrice weekly in 9 and daily in 4. Serum prolactin and progesterone levels, hematology, blood chemistry and electrocardiograms were frequently evaluated throughout treatment. CT or MR imaging of the pituitary was repeated during treatment in patients with macroprolactinoma and in 38 with microprolactinoma. After drug discontinuation, serum prolactin and gonadal function were evaluated monthly for three months in 65 patients and for up to two years in 12. Serum prolactin levels were normalized in 114 patients (90%). Of 56 women with amenorrhea, 52 resumed menses (with presumptive evidence of ovulation in 49); 17 women became pregnant; and sexual potency was restored in the 3 men. Evidence of tumor shrinkage was obtained in 13 of the 14 patients with macroprolactinoma and in 28 of 38 with microprolactinoma; complete disappearance of the tumor image was achieved in 2 macro and 14 microprolactinomas. A total of 48 adverse events was reported by 29 patients (23%), almost all typical of the pharmacological class and mild to moderate; no patient withdrew from treatment due to adverse events. Safety parameters did not change. Following cabergoline discontinuation, prolactin levels increased slowly, being still markedly lower than pretreatment values after three months; 10 patients out of 32 had persistently normal prolactin levels during one year of follow-up.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
looks like if we add an androgen (thus self-defeating the sideless cycle point) it will help what's the most side less androgen? M5AABut again, you're neglecting the cases where gyno occurs in which people are using only deca. This situation will leave an abnormally low systemic estrogen level but eill dramatically elevate prolactin levels.....gyno ensues (of course not always). Prolactin is a big player in the picture. All studies aside, people that formerly saw gyno while using deca and test, who then used B6 at 200 mg/day on a subsequent cycle with the same compounds, had no issues with gyno symptoms.
it's common play to add B6 to all progestin-containing cycles now, and it's made a significant difference in the occurrences of gyno
so bobo suggests this:Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.
Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.
There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion
einstein1905:But Deca (progestins in general) upregulate the ER (because of the drop in T(1) so the amount needed is very small and prolactin and/or progesterone will only make situation worse. Also IGF-1 might be more of a culprit as Tren and Deca show a much more profound effect on increasing hepatic IGF-1 than most other androgens (Tren being the highest). SO when you look at all the theoretical possibilities, prolactin and/or progesterone do not have much of a direct effect in th whole situation and your best best is still Nolva. Estrogen, GH and IGF-1 are more the culprti than anything. We also aren't even taking into account that hyperprolactinemia is often associated with secondary hypogonadism, so in essence those people that think its Deca (or any progestins action) on the PR are probalby mistaken.
As far as B6, I've seen many use it have zero effects and that is concurent with most published data. As for it being common place, I see it being more a myth than anything.
Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression
JIAN ZHOU, SIU NG, O. ADESANYA-FAMUIYA, KRISTIN ANDERSON and CAROLYN A. BONDY1
Developmental Endocrinology Branch, NICHD, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA
the probelm is extrapolating the deca knowledge to MOHN, which throws a wrench in our wheels because it it must be androgenic to some extent(based on pure feel, bad I know), the question is how and how muchI don't want to give the wrong impression here. Nolva is a staple of any cycle IMO. There is nothing but an advantage to blocking estrogenic activity at the breast...nolva has also been implicated in reducing localized IGF-1 synthesis, so can therefore be assumed to have yet another indirect effect locally.
As for the B6, most that have "used" it and said it didn't work, have done so in the fashion one would use bromo, as a treatment for developed symptoms. it's far less potent than bromo, so it's a rather poor treatment....as a preventative (ideally with nolva), it's very effective....certainly moreso than not using it.
ideally, proviron, nolva and B6 would be used with a cycle containing a progestin. Even if prolactin turns out to be a weak factor at the breast, it still has an inhibitory role on HPTA and is a dopamine receptor antagonist, which has more global problematic effects....there is no benefit to elevated prolactin, so using a rather benign means to control it is a good idea.
You bring up a really good point in that androgens help decrease prolactin levels, hence deca only cycles being a horrendous idea, since they provide no significant androgenicity themselves and also suppress most all endogenous androgens at the same time.....the result= an androgen-deprived, hyperprolactinemic environment that's just asking for a number of problems
True, increased prolactin would never be good but generally androgens reduce prolactin anyway so it shouldn't be much of a case in most cycles (although there are always exceptions). I agree with your mindset in that preventing problems is always best but I thnk that most of the evidence points to levels not being that much higer than normal and the situation is worsened because of the upregulation of the ER and drop in total T. But I think at this point we're speculating anyway.....a cheap preventitive is alwyas wise in any case.
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