3 HCG protocols??
- 12-24-2004, 06:48 PM
3 HCG protocols??
Im wondering which of these 3 HCG methods works best. Some say more than 500iu a day damages LH hormone, some say too long of HCG damages it,etc.... What would you all pick for a 20week cycle. Of course clomid/nolva after HCG.
HCG protocol #1.
weeks 1-20 HCG at 500iu once a week
HCG protocol #2
week 6- HCG 2500iu, 5days later another 2500iu
week 12- HCG 2500iu, 5days later another 2500iu
week 20(last week of cycle) HCG 3000iu,3000iu,2500iu,1500iu(5d ays apart)
Or this one I designed HCG protocol #3
week 6- 500iu everyday for 10days
week 12-500iu everyday for 10days
week 20- 500iu everday for 20days
- 12-25-2004, 03:21 AM
I would pick the first, its simular to what Dr. Swale reccomends. And take it with nolva, I have heard this helps prevent the leydig cells from getting damaged, better safe then sorry. So 500iu once a week with 40mg nolva. I dont know where I read that though.
- 12-25-2004, 03:26 AM
by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other
12-25-2004, 01:25 PM
The problem is im on HGH, so I wonder if the Nolva won't be as effective.
12-25-2004, 01:52 PM
Since you olny taking it once a week, and only for the purpose of protecting your leydig cells, dont worry about how effective it is. With the low dose HCG it is probably not needed, but it is better safe the sorry when messing with your nuts.
12-25-2004, 09:07 PM
I'd pick #1, with modification. I'd go with, and have done with success in my last two cycles, 250 iu's twice a week. Monday and Thursday for example. For a 20 week cycle it would be ok to start it immediately, but there really is no need. Start it at week 4, and run to the cycle's end.
I had problems with sex drive and keeping it up post cycle in the past. HCG totally eliminates that problem, run the way I described. Plus the added benefit is it helps you keep more gains, since you bounce back much faster.
12-25-2004, 10:29 PM
Did you take nolva with it? Also Grant, are you saying I need nolva or not?Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
12-26-2004, 06:42 PM
You never said what the cycle consists of???? Definitely have nolva on hand, but it really isn't needed unless you start having gyno symptoms. I am prone to gyno, and on my last cycle which consisted of test/deca/dbol, I did take 15mg of nolva ed for the entire cycle as added insurance since all three compounds heavily aromatize.
12-26-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by FullyBuilt
Im saying you should use nolva on the days you take HCG, to protect leydig cells, not for gyno, which nolva is used for if symptoms show up or if you want to have the added protection of it.
12-27-2004, 12:30 AM
I would go with protocol #1, but would split the 500iu to two shots done every 3-4 days.
12-27-2004, 12:46 AM
Around here Swale seems to be what everyone raves about, but this is the only board where people seem to really like it. Everywhere else that I've seen they say it desensitizes the Leydig cells and makes recovery VERY VERY difficult for longer cycles.
12-27-2004, 01:02 AM
I don't know about that... 500iu over two days every week is going to de-sentisize leydig cells but taking doses upwards of 5000iu's over a course of several weeks (like some people advocate) won't??
12-27-2004, 08:48 AM
It is more of a time issue than a dosage one. Taking HCG for a prolonged period of time is worse than moderately high dosages for a couple weeks.
Honestly it seems to me that it really isn't necessary to take HCG throughout since it only takes a few weeks for the good ol' boys to return to normal. So why put your nuts through hell by taking it the whole cycle when you can get away with just taking it at 250IU twice a week for the last 3 or 4 weeks and maybe for 2 weeks some time in the middle of the cycle?
Remember, "minimum effective dose" is what people should always strive for.
12-27-2004, 02:26 PM
Thats why im now thinking about going with the protocol #3 that I thought of. Its the best of both worlds. Not on HCG all the time, and not too much at once. Look at #3 again and tell me what you think.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
12-27-2004, 02:29 PM
500IU ED is way too much IMO. That's 3500IU a week.
12-27-2004, 03:13 PM
Yah but wouldnt 500iu per day for 20days be better than doing the 3000iu,3000iu,2500iu,1500iu for 20daysOriginally Posted by Nullifidian
12-27-2004, 04:49 PM
So, if you ran 250iu's twice a week throughout the last half of a cycle how long will it take your nuts to come back? The 10 day wait from last shot to PCT my boys shrank to 25% of original size and hcg seemed to have little effect on them. I am on day 6 of PCT and honestly can't tell if the dudes have grownOriginally Posted by Nullifidian
12-27-2004, 04:57 PM
Guys i've got a question. I was planning to run HCG through my cycle at 2x250IU per week. But i wont be able to store it in freezer. So i will have to use the old school method 3x5000 UI shoot after the cure and before the PCT. What will be the better way to use HCG like this ?
12-27-2004, 06:03 PM
I dissagree, I feel that taking 500IU 2 times or 1 time a week is far less harmful then 3500-5000IU a week for a shorter amount of time. I would go with what Swale says, he is a doctor after all whos specialty is HRT, afterall.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
12-27-2004, 07:55 PM
Were exactly is 'everywhere else'? The boards I frequent (and I only occasionally visit AM), almost all condone twice weekly hcg injects during the cycle.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
12-29-2004, 03:24 PM
Especially in california, doctors often use HCG instead of testosterone for TRT in borderline cases, as used once or twice weekly in doses as low as 200iu can bring testosterone levels up to near 1200 in these cases without a lot of the side effects of testosterone administration... However a lot of doctors have found that over several years, they have had to gradually increase the doses of HCG to get the same effect. So YES, over long periods of time HCG has the potential to desensitize the leydig cells, but we're talking 5+ years here, I doubt someone who's on half the time or less will have that problem.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
If you are planning on staying on, like some people at some of the more "hardcore" steroid boards do (which isn't wise unless you're getting PAID to do it anyhow) then no, I wouldn't use swale's protocol.
12-29-2004, 05:53 PM
Currently on week 12 of a 16 week Deca & Test E cycle.
Been doing 3 shots of 250 IU's HCG a week.
All I have to say is that I will never do another cycle without running HCG at at least 500-750 IU's a week.
12-30-2004, 10:13 AM
That's the best plan. do hCG 2-3 times a week. giving yourself a huge shot once a week will cause desensitization and receptor burnout. hCG lasts about 24 hours in serum.
this more closely resembles what your body produces than one giant shot.
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