what to take for PCT

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    what to take for PCT


    Im finishing a 6 week cycle of
    600 mg 1 test
    600 mg 19 nor
    1200 mg 4ad

    Im wondering if I need to take nolvadex or if I should save it for later when I do some stronger methylated ph's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway
    Im finishing a 6 week cycle of
    600 mg 1 test
    600 mg 19 nor
    1200 mg 4ad

    Im wondering if I need to take nolvadex or if I should save it for later when I do some stronger methylated ph's?
    I would take nolva.
    And maybe add something else useful to restore your natural test production like tribulus and avena sativa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    I would take nolva.
    And maybe add something else useful to restore your natural test production like tribulus and avena sativa.
    I agree with the last part, but IMO...6-OXO is best unless you are prone to gynecomastia.
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    take the nolva.
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    Please god take the nolva... Why is it that you feel 6OXO is better mavs? Would it not make sense to spend less money and buy just nolva since you should have it on hand for gyno anyways?
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    imo pct should be just as much a part of a cycle as whatever aas or ph you use. I would definitely go with the nolva. less expensive and more potent in bringing your body's natural test production back to normal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel
    Please god take the nolva... Why is it that you feel 6OXO is better mavs? Would it not make sense to spend less money and buy just nolva since you should have it on hand for gyno anyways?
    I believe that mild estrogens like nolvadex do little to restore HPTA. Only time will do. IMO...Anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. You don't want the test you start producing to aromatise, and have to deal with excessive estrogenic side effects so 6-OXO is the logical choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msclbldrguy
    imo pct should be just as much a part of a cycle as whatever aas or ph you use. I would definitely go with the nolva. less expensive and more potent in bringing your body's natural test production back to normal.
    Show me a study
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    I believe that mild estrogens like nolvadex do little to restore HPTA. Only time will do. IMO...Anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. You don't want the test you start producing to aromatise, and have to deal with excessive estrogenic side effects so 6-OXO is the logical choice.

    Hmmmm I was under the impression that nolva would help restore your HPTA. I would like to see others imput here.
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    OK Im a little confused but Im kind of leaning towards 6oxo, tribulus, and ZMA. I would take the nolva but Im worried that since it's not available from custom right now that something might be up, and I might want to hang on to it.
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    Nolva would be better, but 6 oxo is acceptable for this cycle, though I don't like it nearly as much. If you have enough, be safe and use it. With nolva's increasing scarcity it might be wise to hang on to it though, esp if you're planning on running subsequent heavier cycles.

    I honestly would say use the nolva and get more later, but I'm starting to wonder if "temporarily out of stock" = permanently out of stock

    anyone else suspicious of this?
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    Maybe companies selling research products are just laying low while this ban frenzy passes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    I believe that mild estrogens like nolvadex do little to restore HPTA. Only time will do. IMO...Anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. You don't want the test you start producing to aromatise, and have to deal with excessive estrogenic side effects so 6-OXO is the logical choice.
    okay....i have given this a fair amount of thought and devoted some time into researching it.

    6OXO is an aromatase inhibitor, meaning that it will prevent the test that you are making from converting to estrogen at whatever percentage it does so at in the body. nolva is an estrogen blocker (effectively) that replaces/nullifies actual produced (not converted) estrogen at the receptor level. we all know this. what isnt so clear is this:

    (1) does 6OXO block estrogen that your body produces (because estrogen is produced 2 ways, see above)?
    (2) does nolva occupy the receptors that estrogen aromatized from test would normally occupy?

    when i think of the first few days of PCT, i think about how horrible my estrogen-testosterone ratio is. it isnt this way because my test is aromatizing - it's because my body has cranked up the estrogen to keep my hormones up. unless someone can show that (1) is true, then nolva is far superior to 6OXO for PCT. after the first week or two when you do most of your recovering, your test is back up to the point that the estrogen that aromatizes from it dominates the total percentage of estrogen in your body, and at that point 6OXO would be completely sufficient.

    and MAVS - anti-e's DO encourage your body to jumpstart test (clomid moreso than nolva) because when the estrogen is not being used like your body wanted, your body is forced to excrete more hormones to balance. thus, test jumps. granted, this is conjecture as i have never seen a study where a user comes off PCT and gets hormone levels checked every day for 2 weeks. you'd think there would be one of those by now.

    in the meantime, the sides from nolva are minimal at normal dosages, and it is the proven choice among AAS users because it definitely works. you wont see pros with 6OXO in their gym bags unless they are doing a commercial for it. the only downside i have seen from nolva is the estrogen rebound post-PCT which has been documented. i tend to think this is very rare and the user(s) did not decrease dosages in the proper way.

    off topic - BigPJ - looking good bro! (in an entirely straight way) that doesnt look like a natural (ie. not hormonally enhanced) body though. still, much respect for size AND cuts. you could go NPC with a little more work (or as-is, depending on the competition)

    i'll take rep points for spreading this knowledge/inquiry around...
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    It was my understanding that nolva blocks estrogen. So when you go off it you have excess estrogen running around your system. 6-OXO prevents the creation of estrogen so, unlike nolva, the amount of estrogen in the body is decreased not just blocked. I could see the logic in using both and I realize this is costly. By combining them you'll get the current excess estrogen blocked while reducing the estrogen being formed. There is probably a break point where there isn't enough estrogen to block to make the nolva useful so drop it and stay with the 6-OXO. This should keep estrogen levels low and allow for test levels to exceed what they would be normally.

    This is just a theory and I haven't tried it yet but plan to when doing something like a 4-AD/19-Nor stack. If there's a flaw in the logic let me know and we can work on the theory before going to implimentation.
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    THEBRAKES:

    This is a real good argument, and nolva is superior. But is the estrogen-test ratio that bad after something like 1-test/4ad (anyone know?)? I always thought you should use nolva, but can get away with 6-oxo after a mild cycle. I don't know for a fact, but assume M1T destroys this ratio, while milder stuff doesn't, in layman's terms, **** your body up quite as much. Too bad no one posts info on test/estrogen levels post cycle.

    off topic--
    off topic - BigPJ - looking good bro! (in an entirely straight way) that doesnt look like a natural (ie. not hormonally enhanced) body though. still, much respect for size AND cuts. you could go NPC with a little more work (or as-is, depending on the competition)
    Appreciate the compliment bro. I was not real large at the time, and hadn't used any hormones. Tanning and low bf, my friend = the illusion of size. Also, when you're 5'5" 16 inch arms look big on a small frame. Don't get me wrong though, that took me 5 years to do.
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    First of all why don't you have your PCT supplies on hand to begin with - thats a rookie mistake....

    second...nolva being a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) means in some tissues in the body it blocks the effects of estrogen and essentially tricks your HPTA into raising testosterone to account for the lower levels of estrogen it 'sees.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmac6225
    First of all why don't you have your PCT supplies on hand to begin with - thats a rookie mistake....
    My thoughts exactly, although the research companies being out of stock this long can cause paranoia.

    BTW, we know Nolva works, so does Clomid, there are no studies comparing either with 6-OXO and I can't personally speak on the 6-OXO effectiveness but I would stick with Nolva cause it has worked for me. If anyone has done PCT with both than maybe they can give input on how they compare but for the meantime Nolva is the safe bet IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skoal
    This is just a theory and I haven't tried it yet but plan to when doing something like a 4-AD/19-Nor stack. If there's a flaw in the logic let me know and we can work on the theory before going to implimentation.
    okay, that's a terrible stack. 19-nor and 4-ad compete.

    and please re-read my previous post, especially the part about the two methods of formation of estrogen.

    i am thinking more about it....and realizing something....though estrogen can be MADE in more than one way, it MUST only be RECEIVED by your system in one way. could there be two? in the former case (only one way), which i think is correct, the blocking of the reception of the estrogen (nolva) would be far more beneficial than the inhibition of formation of ONE of the methods (aromatization, 6OXO) anybody disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPJ
    THEBRAKES:

    This is a real good argument, and nolva is superior. But is the estrogen-test ratio that bad after something like 1-test/4ad (anyone know?)? I always thought you should use nolva, but can get away with 6-oxo after a mild cycle. I don't know for a fact, but assume M1T destroys this ratio, while milder stuff doesn't, in layman's terms, **** your body up quite as much. Too bad no one posts info on test/estrogen levels post cycle.

    off topic--

    Appreciate the compliment bro. I was not real large at the time, and hadn't used any hormones. Tanning and low bf, my friend = the illusion of size. Also, when you're 5'5" 16 inch arms look big on a small frame. Don't get me wrong though, that took me 5 years to do.
    1-test is pretty suppressive. not as much as M1T (which can be COMPLETELY suppressive) but as long as its my body i'm gonna take the safer route. yes, it is commonly recommended to use 6OXO with 1-ad/4-ad but i dont (and 1-ad converts directly to 1-test at a pretty high rate)

    bigPJ - in that case you've got chest and biceps that suggest a LOT of hard work. i've never seen bi's like that on a guy not taking something. consider it a compliment. i envy small guys for one big reason: they dont have to eat like an entire mexican village to put on mass. i'm not saying you're a (relative) monster, but you've got some real solid areas and a good taper.
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    nolva is still very easy to find. I know we all like supporting board sponsers, however there are other places.
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    BigP, its u in your avatar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEBRAKES
    okay, that's a terrible stack. 19-nor and 4-ad compete.

    and please re-read my previous post, especially the part about the two methods of formation of estrogen.

    i am thinking more about it....and realizing something....though estrogen can be MADE in more than one way, it MUST only be RECEIVED by your system in one way. could there be two? in the former case (only one way), which i think is correct, the blocking of the reception of the estrogen (nolva) would be far more beneficial than the inhibition of formation of ONE of the methods (aromatization, 6OXO) anybody disagree?
    Getting OT but why does it compete? I don't think conversion enzymes were ever an issue in normal even fairly high doses.

    And to answer your question, yes but not because we want to block estrogen completely but to keep some small amount of estrogen around.
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    Wow, everyone has an opinion...This is just mine: The body makes most of it's estrogen from aromatase, converting testosterone. After a cycle estrogen will be slightly increased because the body is trying to keep balance E/T ratio. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it.
    Nolvadex and Clomid stimulate LH, this is why they have been know to restore HPTA, but directly after a cycle LH is high anyway. I'm not saying that there is no use for these breast cancer/fertility mild estrogen drugs, just not immediatly after a cycle.
    My goal post cycle would be to stop aromatase and control estrogenic sides, time will restore HPTA.
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    I believe this article says what I believe: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par31.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    My goal post cycle would be to stop aromatase and control estrogenic sides, time will restore HPTA.
    So you would advise using 6-oxo at high dosage (lets say 600mg ED) for the first two weeks followed by 2 weeks of Nolva at moderate dose (20)?

    I'm actually going to stack nolva, 6-oxo and put some fenugreek into my PCT plan too, but i'm not sure on how to stack nolva and 6oxo. Note that I'm doing a 8 week cycle so i will be pretty shut down (i already had shrinkage at week 3).
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    anyone have info on RC's from ctdresearch.net
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    Wow, everyone has an opinion...This is just mine: The body makes most of it's estrogen from aromatase, converting testosterone. After a cycle estrogen will be slightly increased because the body is trying to keep balance E/T ratio. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it.
    Nolvadex and Clomid stimulate LH, this is why they have been know to restore HPTA, but directly after a cycle LH is high anyway. I'm not saying that there is no use for these breast cancer/fertility mild estrogen drugs, just not immediatly after a cycle.
    My goal post cycle would be to stop aromatase and control estrogenic sides, time will restore HPTA.
    The first ph cycle i did with was with 1test and i didnt know enuf to do any pct. After I completed my cycle, it took about a week for my strength to noticeably decline and I lost some size...Enough to notice.

    I did my second cycle with 1 test and included pct (6 oxo) and really lost no strength and no noticeable size.

    I have done 2 cycles using M1T and used nolva both times for pct because i wanted something stronger pct. In both cases I have lost very little strength and no noticeable size. I know this isnt the most scientific way to decied this but all I have to go on is how this all worked for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    Getting OT but why does it compete? I don't think conversion enzymes were ever an issue in normal even fairly high doses.

    And to answer your question, yes but not because we want to block estrogen completely but to keep some small amount of estrogen around.
    there is a lack of really conclusive evidence regarding the competetition...which is why i usually add a disclaimer to it, that the info is heresay and i've got no science to back it up.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...r+4-ad+compete

    is a cycle that was run with some success using this combo. i didnt find any threads with ****TY results, but then again nobody posts those

    40mg of nolva wont block estrogen completely - only a portion. 20 and 10mg will block even less. from user experience, 40mg appears to be the amount that blocks ENOUGH
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    [QUOTE=Syr]So you would advise using 6-oxo at high dosage (lets say 600mg ED) for the first two weeks followed by 2 weeks of Nolva at moderate dose (20)?QUOTE]
    Man, that looks like a really good PCT. I would say 900mg ED of 6-OXO for two weeks followed by 1 full week (7 days) of nolvadex/clomid would be fine, as I understand it they have a very long half life of like 5 days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msclbldrguy
    The first ph cycle i did with was with 1test and i didnt know enuf to do any pct. After I completed my cycle, it took about a week for my strength to noticeably decline and I lost some size...Enough to notice.

    I did my second cycle with 1 test and included pct (6 oxo) and really lost no strength and no noticeable size.

    I have done 2 cycles using M1T and used nolva both times for pct because i wanted something stronger pct. In both cases I have lost very little strength and no noticeable size. I know this isnt the most scientific way to decied this but all I have to go on is how this all worked for me.
    That's the most scientific way to decide...What works for you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    So you would advise using 6-oxo at high dosage (lets say 600mg ED) for the first two weeks followed by 2 weeks of Nolva at moderate dose (20)?
    Man, that looks like a really good PCT. I would say 900mg ED of 6-OXO for two weeks followed by 1 full week (7 days) of nolvadex/clomid would be fine, as I understand it they have a very long half life of like 5 days.
    After receiving educated input, what I planned is this:

    Nolva (40/30/20/20 mg ED)
    6oxo (600/600/300/300 mg ED)
    Fenugreek (1040/1560/2080/2640 mg ED)
    7OH (50+50 mg ED)

    + liver protectants, recovery supps and the usual stuff i take all-year around.

    Keep in mind that my cycle is 8 weeks long, without HCG.
    It may be a good idea to reduce the initial Nolva dose. And it may be smart too to extend the PCT to 5 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEBRAKES
    okay, that's a terrible stack. 19-nor and 4-ad compete.

    and please re-read my previous post, especially the part about the two methods of formation of estrogen.

    i am thinking more about it....and realizing something....though estrogen can be MADE in more than one way, it MUST only be RECEIVED by your system in one way. could there be two? in the former case (only one way), which i think is correct, the blocking of the reception of the estrogen (nolva) would be far more beneficial than the inhibition of formation of ONE of the methods (aromatization, 6OXO) anybody disagree?
    Actually I do disagree. After a cycle, normal test levels are already low so there isn't as much test to be converted to eastrogen. At this point using the nolva would be good to block the already higher levels of estrogen while test levels approach normal levels. Once they have reached normal levels you still have excess estrogen in your system ( the estrogen rebound) plus your body has more test that convert to estrogen. So the only ways to reduce estrogen are either reduce test levels to lower levels from aromatization or stop the production of estrogen. Stopping the production of estrogen is the only viable method, this is where the 6-OXO comes into play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavs
    That's the most scientific way to decide...What works for you
    I think that is one of the things I like best about bbing...your plans can be tailored to your goals andu can usually find others who have gone down a similar path so you can make an educated decision on how to approach training, ph or even aas use. cool.
  

  
 

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