Im finishing a 6 week cycle of
600 mg 1 test
600 mg 19 nor
1200 mg 4ad
Im wondering if I need to take nolvadex or if I should save it for later when I do some stronger methylated ph's?
I would take nolva.Originally Posted by warriorway
And maybe add something else useful to restore your natural test production like tribulus and avena sativa.
I agree with the last part, but IMO...6-OXO is best unless you are prone to gynecomastia.Originally Posted by Syr
take the nolva.
Please god take the nolva... Why is it that you feel 6OXO is better mavs? Would it not make sense to spend less money and buy just nolva since you should have it on hand for gyno anyways?
imo pct should be just as much a part of a cycle as whatever aas or ph you use. I would definitely go with the nolva. less expensive and more potent in bringing your body's natural test production back to normal.
I believe that mild estrogens like nolvadex do little to restore HPTA. Only time will do. IMO...Anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. You don't want the test you start producing to aromatise, and have to deal with excessive estrogenic side effects so 6-OXO is the logical choice.Originally Posted by Rebel
Show me a studyOriginally Posted by msclbldrguy
Originally Posted by Mavs
Hmmmm I was under the impression that nolva would help restore your HPTA. I would like to see others imput here.
OK Im a little confused but Im kind of leaning towards 6oxo, tribulus, and ZMA. I would take the nolva but Im worried that since it's not available from custom right now that something might be up, and I might want to hang on to it.
Nolva would be better, but 6 oxo is acceptable for this cycle, though I don't like it nearly as much. If you have enough, be safe and use it. With nolva's increasing scarcity it might be wise to hang on to it though, esp if you're planning on running subsequent heavier cycles.
I honestly would say use the nolva and get more later, but I'm starting to wonder if "temporarily out of stock" = permanently out of stock
anyone else suspicious of this?
Maybe companies selling research products are just laying low while this ban frenzy passes...
okay....i have given this a fair amount of thought and devoted some time into researching it.Originally Posted by Mavs
6OXO is an aromatase inhibitor, meaning that it will prevent the test that you are making from converting to estrogen at whatever percentage it does so at in the body. nolva is an estrogen blocker (effectively) that replaces/nullifies actual produced (not converted) estrogen at the receptor level. we all know this. what isnt so clear is this:
(1) does 6OXO block estrogen that your body produces (because estrogen is produced 2 ways, see above)?
(2) does nolva occupy the receptors that estrogen aromatized from test would normally occupy?
when i think of the first few days of PCT, i think about how horrible my estrogen-testosterone ratio is. it isnt this way because my test is aromatizing - it's because my body has cranked up the estrogen to keep my hormones up. unless someone can show that (1) is true, then nolva is far superior to 6OXO for PCT. after the first week or two when you do most of your recovering, your test is back up to the point that the estrogen that aromatizes from it dominates the total percentage of estrogen in your body, and at that point 6OXO would be completely sufficient.
and MAVS - anti-e's DO encourage your body to jumpstart test (clomid moreso than nolva) because when the estrogen is not being used like your body wanted, your body is forced to excrete more hormones to balance. thus, test jumps. granted, this is conjecture as i have never seen a study where a user comes off PCT and gets hormone levels checked every day for 2 weeks. you'd think there would be one of those by now.
in the meantime, the sides from nolva are minimal at normal dosages, and it is the proven choice among AAS users because it definitely works. you wont see pros with 6OXO in their gym bags unless they are doing a commercial for it. the only downside i have seen from nolva is the estrogen rebound post-PCT which has been documented. i tend to think this is very rare and the user(s) did not decrease dosages in the proper way.
off topic - BigPJ - looking good bro! (in an entirely straight way) that doesnt look like a natural (ie. not hormonally enhanced) body though. still, much respect for size AND cuts. you could go NPC with a little more work (or as-is, depending on the competition)
i'll take rep points for spreading this knowledge/inquiry around...
It was my understanding that nolva blocks estrogen. So when you go off it you have excess estrogen running around your system. 6-OXO prevents the creation of estrogen so, unlike nolva, the amount of estrogen in the body is decreased not just blocked. I could see the logic in using both and I realize this is costly. By combining them you'll get the current excess estrogen blocked while reducing the estrogen being formed. There is probably a break point where there isn't enough estrogen to block to make the nolva useful so drop it and stay with the 6-OXO. This should keep estrogen levels low and allow for test levels to exceed what they would be normally.
This is just a theory and I haven't tried it yet but plan to when doing something like a 4-AD/19-Nor stack. If there's a flaw in the logic let me know and we can work on the theory before going to implimentation.
This is a real good argument, and nolva is superior. But is the estrogen-test ratio that bad after something like 1-test/4ad (anyone know?)? I always thought you should use nolva, but can get away with 6-oxo after a mild cycle. I don't know for a fact, but assume M1T destroys this ratio, while milder stuff doesn't, in layman's terms, **** your body up quite as much. Too bad no one posts info on test/estrogen levels post cycle.
Appreciate the compliment bro. I was not real large at the time, and hadn't used any hormones. Tanning and low bf, my friend = the illusion of size. Also, when you're 5'5" 16 inch arms look big on a small frame. Don't get me wrong though, that took me 5 years to do.off topic - BigPJ - looking good bro! (in an entirely straight way) that doesnt look like a natural (ie. not hormonally enhanced) body though. still, much respect for size AND cuts. you could go NPC with a little more work (or as-is, depending on the competition)
First of all why don't you have your PCT supplies on hand to begin with - thats a rookie mistake....
second...nolva being a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) means in some tissues in the body it blocks the effects of estrogen and essentially tricks your HPTA into raising testosterone to account for the lower levels of estrogen it 'sees.'
My thoughts exactly, although the research companies being out of stock this long can cause paranoia.Originally Posted by kmac6225
BTW, we know Nolva works, so does Clomid, there are no studies comparing either with 6-OXO and I can't personally speak on the 6-OXO effectiveness but I would stick with Nolva cause it has worked for me. If anyone has done PCT with both than maybe they can give input on how they compare but for the meantime Nolva is the safe bet IMO.
okay, that's a terrible stack. 19-nor and 4-ad compete.Originally Posted by skoal
and please re-read my previous post, especially the part about the two methods of formation of estrogen.
i am thinking more about it....and realizing something....though estrogen can be MADE in more than one way, it MUST only be RECEIVED by your system in one way. could there be two? in the former case (only one way), which i think is correct, the blocking of the reception of the estrogen (nolva) would be far more beneficial than the inhibition of formation of ONE of the methods (aromatization, 6OXO) anybody disagree?
1-test is pretty suppressive. not as much as M1T (which can be COMPLETELY suppressive) but as long as its my body i'm gonna take the safer route. yes, it is commonly recommended to use 6OXO with 1-ad/4-ad but i dont (and 1-ad converts directly to 1-test at a pretty high rate)Originally Posted by BigPJ
bigPJ - in that case you've got chest and biceps that suggest a LOT of hard work. i've never seen bi's like that on a guy not taking something. consider it a compliment. i envy small guys for one big reason: they dont have to eat like an entire mexican village to put on mass. i'm not saying you're a (relative) monster, but you've got some real solid areas and a good taper.
nolva is still very easy to find. I know we all like supporting board sponsers, however there are other places.
BigP, its u in your avatar?