Clen - everyone needs to take a look at this.

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    Clen - everyone needs to take a look at this.


    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...threadid=13091

    It's been known for some time that clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.


    J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

    {beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

    Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

    Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

    High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Yikes! But does apoptosis in rats mean apoptosis in humans??? I'd be very interested in a human study in regards to this issue.

    EDIT: Also makes you wonder why nobody carries albuterol?? I've read rave reviews about it, too, by those who have used it.
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    i used albuterol 2x a day every day of my life from the age of 2-12 due to juvenile asthema and i have absolutely no problems with my heart or health in general
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    Liquid Albuterol is starting to be very popular...not as harsh as clen, and can deliver pretty much the same results.
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    Clen's also very anabolic in mice, but not in us at all. Mice are 93% the same makeup as we are so not everything works the same. I don't think we have to worry about this one as long as it's taken responsibly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    i used albuterol 2x a day every day of my life from the age of 2-12 due to juvenile asthema and i have absolutely no problems with my heart or health in general
    Me too, from 12-18. I've never taken clen, and would feel more comfortable with albuterol for this reasons.

    I've read that albuterol is pretty much more effective and more side effect free........and it's hardly on the market.........

    I wonder when/if CNW will start to carry it????
    Quote Originally Posted by willieman
    Liquid Albuterol is starting to be very popular...not as harsh as clen, and can deliver pretty much the same results.
    Have you seen any research places that carry it though?? I know I haven't.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Me too, from 12-18. I've never taken clen, and would feel more comfortable with albuterol for this reasons.

    I've read that albuterol is pretty much more effective and more side effect free........and it's hardly on the market.........

    I wonder when/if CNW will start to carry it????

    Have you seen any research places that carry it though?? I know I haven't.....
    i would be interested in albuterol. i use to take it for asthma so i would be a lot more comfortable with that.
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    i don't think the dosages we took for asthma are sufficient for weight loss ... although i could be wrong it was 10 years ago last i took albuterol and certainly don't remember the dosage, but it was a vapor and i took two puffs

    albuterol has a much shorter half life so i don't know how that plays into the equation
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    Quote Originally Posted by willieman
    Liquid Albuterol is starting to be very popular...not as harsh as clen, and can deliver pretty much the same results.

    What dose would the liquid be? I'm only familiar with the vapor version. Do you just take the liquid that is used in the atomizer orally at a higher dosage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    i don't think the dosages we took for asthma are sufficient for weight loss ... although i could be wrong it was 10 years ago last i took albuterol and certainly don't remember the dosage, but it was a vapor and i took two puffs
    I'm sure you're right
    albuterol has a much shorter half life so i don't know how that plays into the equation
    More frequent administrations?
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    o.k I got the cem albuterol,
    did nothing, minor shakes and minor anything- if youre going to do it, do it right with clen.

    I did clen today, for ****s
    I was shaking so bad at work cause I mixed that with a barista making me 5 hot expresso's an hour- I was so fuct- side note- this was not smart- one of the other chef's impaled himself 1 1/4 inches deep in the fleshy part of his palm- the blood was a purply red- ****in sick- Ive only ever seen blood that colour once before at a slaughter house.
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    I've read before that albuterol is not really effective for anything in a bodybuilding sense. I've seen a similar study on clen and the heart before, but the one I saw used dosages no human would use. I don't go over 120 mcg/day anytime I use it. Anymore is overkill IMO. But it appears even this amount might have some serious effects to it now. Is there any way to measure damage or necrosis in the heart in humans? I mean couldn't you still have necrosis of some cells but have a heart that functions normally? Or is it just a matter of not knowing until the long term effects start popping up?
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    If albuterol was effective for bb'ing and has been around as long as it has been, would it not already be commonplace in bb'ing?
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    i've taken 200mcg of clen for a couple weeks routinely, with cardio and weightlifting, and i haven't had any problems. So i'm gonna keep using it, cuz i know it works for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by jminis
    Clen's also very anabolic in mice, but not in us at all. Mice are 93% the same makeup as we are so not everything works the same. I don't think we have to worry about this one as long as it's taken responsibly.
    The dosage used in mice in the studies that found anabolism is around 5000 times what bodybuilders use, so that's not a valid argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenihan
    i used albuterol 2x a day every day of my life from the age of 2-12 due to juvenile asthema and i have absolutely no problems with my heart or health in general
    Inhaled beta andrenergic agonists as the ones taken for asthma have almost no systemic activity, they only work in the lungs. I have been using them for 20 years and also have no problems, but that doesn't mean this information should be disregarded.
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    Back from the dead.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Back from the dead.
    Okay!! And you bring it back to life because...of new data? Information? questions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rostam View Post
    Okay!! And you bring it back to life because...of new data? Information? questions?
    Because I see a lot of people/teens running (and abusing) clen. I don't think people appreciate/understand it's harm to heart tissue if not used sparingly. It's always good to have a reminder.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    If they're browsing the steroid section on an internet forum, we may have other problems on our hands with these teenagers.
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    So I'm curious. How big of a calorie deficit do most people go on while on clen? I've heard you burn off an extra 200-300 calories per day on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH2012 View Post
    lmao, the dude's post is making you want to try it huh?
    Oh I've been planning on it when I start my cut 1st week of May. I've always want to see it's anabolic or rather anti catabolic effects on a cut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH2012 View Post
    yeah, iwjfwu lol.
    Cutting gets to be a drag...lol
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    I didn't like clen. Bronkaid ftw
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    I didn't like clen. Bronkaid ftw
    I've heard most people say that EC stack it's mainly the appetite supression that is helps then during the cut, rather than any actually thermogenic effects?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ion26 View Post
    I've heard most people say that EC stack it's mainly the appetite supression that is helps then during the cut, rather than any actually thermogenic effects?
    False, I've used it and lost fat without reducing caloric intake, and yes bronkaid!! Haha. I do not take Clen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ion26 View Post

    I've heard most people say that EC stack it's mainly the appetite supression that is helps then during the cut, rather than any actually thermogenic effects?
    Instead of listening to what other people say, get a mind of your own and do research and read about the science of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Instead of listening to what other people say, get a mind of your own and do research and read about the science of it.
    I've actually tried it. I was just never hungry which is what helped. I didn't feel a thermogenic effect. Didn't sweat more, feel hot, etc
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    And you felt this from clen?

    Cause I didn't sweat more from clen or feel hot.

    And I don't think clen is a thermogenic.

    Beta 2 agonist, though, certainly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    And you felt this from clen? Cause I didn't sweat more from clen or feel hot. And I don't think clen is a thermogenic. Beta 2 agonist, though, certainly.
    No I haven't tried clen. That's why I was saying that I wanted to try it
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    btw, ephedrine acts on both alpha and beta adrenergic receptors.

    if you want significant weight loss with clen, you'll want to stack it with t3, and run some kind of aas to keep muscle catabolism from happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ion26 View Post
    I've actually tried it. I was just never hungry which is what helped. I didn't feel a thermogenic effect. Didn't sweat more, feel hot, etc
    Where was the ephedra from? Maybe it was no good. If I take a bronkaid with a scoop of pre workout, watch out, I'm full of intensity for a good couple hours and I'm sweating my ass off in the gym and usually have to make myself leave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurdlemaker View Post
    Where was the ephedra from? Maybe it was no good. If I take a bronkaid with a scoop of pre workout, watch out, I'm full of intensity for a good couple hours and I'm sweating my ass off in the gym and usually have to make myself leave.
    I much prefer ephedrine to clen. I feel like I have ptsd from clen. just thinking about it makes me shaky.

    bronkaid is my go to if I want to add something with a little kick. nice clean energy from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurdlemaker View Post
    Where was the ephedra from? Maybe it was no good. If I take a bronkaid with a scoop of pre workout, watch out, I'm full of intensity for a good couple hours and I'm sweating my ass off in the gym and usually have to make myself leave.
    I used Bronkaid. It made me feel sick too lol. Like nausea kinda
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    Quote Originally Posted by ion26 View Post

    I used Bronkaid. It made me feel sick too lol. Like nausea kinda
    If bronkaid made you sick, huh, clen is gonna take you on a hell of a ride. Lmao
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    If bronkaid made you sick, huh, clen is gonna take you on a hell of a ride. Lmao
    I probably should have lowered the dose. I was taking 4 doses a day at 8, 12, 4, and 8 pm.

    Daily
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    Not sure why no asprin

    And why 4 times/day? You do cardio 4x/day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Not sure why no asprin And why 4 times/day? You do cardio 4x/day?
    I've read that it isn't necessary. And no I didn't do cardio at all lol. I was just in a calorie deficit. It was consensus on BB.com (I got banned there eventually that's why I'm here more often now) that you just take it 3-4 times a day every 4 hrs. Aspirin not necessary.

    I got results like I lost weight but I felt my muscles were melting off as well lol. This was like 3 yrs ago
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    Quote Originally Posted by ion26 View Post

    I've read that it isn't necessary. And no I didn't do cardio at all lol. I was just in a calorie deficit. It was consensus on BB.com (I got banned there eventually that's why I'm here more often now) that you just take it 3-4 times a day every 4 hrs. Aspirin not necessary.

    I got results like I lost weight but I felt my muscles were melting off as well lol. This was like 3 yrs ago
    You don't particularly like science or data based information huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    You don't particularly like science or data based information huh?
    No. The funny part is that I have biochem/molecular bio degree. (Not that I do anything with it now) But yeah I prefer to read cliffs or ask highly reputable members of certain forums.
  

  
 

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