Gyno reverse help!
- 01-12-2013, 03:17 PM
Gyno reverse help!
Hey guys I'm new but have been reading on the forums for months now. Before I knew about pro hormones and AAS,a guy at this nutrition store said take this and you'll gain 10lbs which I actually did. Never really looked into it but after taking it I found out it was actually a ph. I asked the guy too anything i need to know about or any side affects? He said no not at all. My fault for not researching. Anyway, i crashed afterwards and developed mild gyno and thats when i started researching. I am 20 and I am not doing another cycle or doing aas, my question is though is what should i take to reverse it? I took it back in august and finished it october so I have had it for a couple months now. Nolva,clomid,letro? Ive done my research but since im not doing any cycles im curious to see your opinions in my case. Both nips are puffy, a little sensitive/hurt when squeezed and both have a pea sized ball underneath. Again this was my fault for not researching it and had no clue it was a ph because i was new to this stuff. I just want to know how to get rid of the gyno. Im not doing any aas or ph at all. Just looking for some help thanks.
- 01-12-2013, 04:42 PM
- 5'10" 208 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Rep Power
pretty sure once the lump hardens, only surgery can take it out. sry to hear your story bro, now you know not to listen to supplement store workers lol
- 01-12-2013, 04:53 PM
So lets say in the future if i begin aas, will it just stay like that since it hardens or could it possibly get worse? And then at that point try to kill it down with some letro?
01-12-2013, 05:05 PM
I get the feeling you want to run aas in the future lol. Letrozole and Nolva can help a lot
01-12-2013, 05:23 PM
Lol I will I have a whole cycle that i know exactly how much and what to take,not now though too young. Should i run nolva and letro now or in the future when i do decide to do my first cycle? I know how to dose it on a cycle but if you are suggesting to take that now, how would you dose it?
01-12-2013, 07:07 PM
theres a thread on gyno reversal but im pretty sure u use the letro up to 2.5 mgs untill it goes away and then u use nolva to prevent the rebound read the thread much better and detailed info then this lol, i've doen it it works well
01-12-2013, 08:09 PM
Alright thanks ill check that out
01-12-2013, 09:51 PM
I did not write this, but here you go:
All you need to know about GYNO
Hope this answers all of the questions regarding gyno prevention and reversal, the use of letrozole and other anti-e’s. I will go over everything in very simple easy to understand language. Also we are talking about estrogen gyno here, not progesterone (but using letro will stop progesterone related problems as well since it inhibits all estrogen anyways). Progesterone gyno will be enlargement of your nipple area, the actual areola, not a lump under it.
Let me make this first point very clear, as I state in my signature this is from my personal experience, so whether you agree with it or not is your own issue. I have helped many people with gyno and it has worked just fine for them as well.
To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:
SERM– Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (Aromasin), Femara (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.
Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.
Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.
You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.
If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.
This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.
It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.
How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.
Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.
1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **
*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.
** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.
Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.
Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone/estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.
This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.
How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely
01-12-2013, 09:52 PM
you better rep that mofo for finding that article, or else u might soon be playing with ur own tits
01-12-2013, 09:59 PM
O and this is a good read as well
16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia
By Eric M. Potratz
Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.[/CENTER]
Gynecomastia = Gyno
Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.
In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.
If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.
You Do Not Have Gyno!
During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -
* Puffy or swollen nipples
* Overly sensitive nipples
* Itchiness around the nipples
Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.
Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.
Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.
The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…
No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.
Here are the basic levels of gyno -
Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.
Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.
Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –
level 1 = temporary
level 2 = semi-permanent
Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.
Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno -
The 16 Points
Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.
1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.
Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –
* Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)
* Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.
* Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
* High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.
3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)
4. Trenbolone , TREN , Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.
5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar , Winstrol , Masteron , Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)
6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.
7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –
* Vitex at 460mg/day
* Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
* Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
* Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)
8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.
9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-****load-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.
10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)
11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.
12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)
13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)
14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex , letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.
15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.
16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.
1. Dihydrotestosterone may inhibit hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal activity by acting through estrogen receptor in the male mouse.
Lund TD, et al.
Neurosci Lett. 2004 Jul 15;365(1):43-7.
2. Androgen-induced inhibition of proliferation in human breast cancer MCF7 cells transfected with androgen receptor.
Szelei J, et al.
Tufts University School of Medicine, Department of Anatomy and Cellular Biology, Boston, Massachusetts 02111, USA.
3. The non-aromatizable androgen, dihydrotestosterone, induces antiestrogenic responses in the rainbow trout.
Shilling AD, et al.
Agricultural and Life Sciences Building, room 1007, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331, USA.
4. The androgen 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and its metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3beta, 17beta-diol inhibit the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal response to stress by acting through estrogen receptor beta-expressing neurons in the hypothalamus.
Lund TD, et al.
J Neurosci. 2006 Feb 1;26(5):1448-56.
5. Steroid modulation of aromatase activity in human cultured breast carcinoma cells.
Perel E, et al.
J Steroid Biochem. 1988 Apr;29(4):393-9.
6. Aromatase activity in the breast and other peripheral tissues and its therapeutic regulation.
Killinger DW, et al.
Steroids. 1987 Oct-Dec;50(4-6):523-36. Review.
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J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72.
8. FSH-induced aromatase activity in porcine granulosa cells: non-competitive inhibition by non-aromatizable androgens.
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9. The effect of 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors on erectile function.
Canguven O, Burnett AL.
J Androl. 2008 Sep-Oct;29(5):514-23.
10. Comparative Pharmacokinetics of Three Doses of Percutaneous Dihydrotestosterone Gel in Healthy Elderly Men – A Clinical Research Center Study*
C. Wang et al.
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol. 83, No. 8 (1998)
11. Successful percutaneous dihydrotestosterone treatment of gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy: four cases and a review of the literature.
Benveniste O et al.
Clin Infect Dis. 2001 Sep 15;33(6):891-3.
12. Gynecomastia: effect of prolonged treatment with dihydrotestosterone by the percutaneous route.
Kuhn J et al.
Presse Med 12;21-25. (1983)
13. Percutaneous dihydrotestosterone (DHT) treatment. In: Nieschlag E, Behre HM, eds. Testosterone: action, deficiency substitution.
Schaison G, Nahoul K, Couzinet B.
Berlin: Springer Verlag; 155–164. (1990)
14. Transdermal dihydrotestosterone and treatment of ‘andropause ’.
de Lignieres B.
Ann Med 1993;25: 235–41.
15. Metabolism and receptor binding of nandrolone and testosterone under invitro and invivo conditions.
Bergink et al.
Acta Endocrinol Suppl (Copenh). 271:31-7, 1985
16. Pharmacology of Reproduction
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Principles of Pharmacology (second edition) p. 510 (2008)
17. Antagonism of estrogen-induced prolactin release by dihydrotestosterone.
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Biol Reprod. 1989 Jun;40(6):1201-7.
18. Aromatase – a brief overview
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Annu Rev Physiol. 64:93-127, 2002
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Nutr Cancer. 2007;58(2):127-35.
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01-12-2013, 10:38 PM
Wow that helped out immensely. Thanks for all the help guys,appreciate it.
01-21-2013, 03:16 PM
I just started following veritatas post a few weeks ago to reduce a dime size spot and it acutally It appears to be helping. Something strange though is i dont appear to be seeing any of the sides that other forums post about. Im seeing an increase in my strength and I feel great. I dont know if maybe what i have is underdosed or if i just havent been taking it that long but so far so good. Im at the 2.5 mark and have been for about 6 days.
01-21-2013, 04:00 PM
I just received my liquid letro, I still haven't started because I'm nervous with the joint pain. I can put up with low libido and stuff but the joint pain scares me. I've really been training hard trying to get some of my gains back after I completely crashed after the pH. I don't want to start taking it and having such bad joint pains where it affects my lifting and im back to square one and lose a couple months of work. Any suggestions?
01-21-2013, 04:37 PM
VO2 Max = 58.75mL/kg/min
~If Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week~
Learn Teach Lead
01-21-2013, 05:00 PM
Yo can take deca tht helps Lube the joints and its also dosent aromatize but u can kiss ur libido and erection goodbye
01-21-2013, 05:21 PM
Alright I'll take a shot at the pyramid plan and start at .50mg and slowly go up. Also I've read mixed reviews, but if I slowly taper off is it necessary to use nolva after? Or since I'm tapering off its not needed? Just wondering because if it's a must I don't want to start unless I get some nolva first.
01-21-2013, 05:24 PM
Oh and I have access to aromasin immediately and don't have to wait for the nolva if I could use that instead.
01-21-2013, 05:25 PM
You nEed Nolva because even if u taper off the letro ur body will rebound and there will a a surge of estrogen which without Nolva will go straight to ur gyno
01-21-2013, 05:38 PM
01-26-2013, 10:18 AM
I know this was from a couple weeks ago but I haven't been able to find an answer to this question. Since I didn't know it was a ph until after I never took a pct. And didn't develop my mild gyno until a month or so after. Once I reverse it, will I have to really worry during my first more than likely test e cycle in the future if I'm running an ai and then a proper pct? Because I never experienced anything during the ph cycle.
01-26-2013, 11:08 AM
“Just be advised that the above information posted is not medical advice and should only be used for fun and entertainment.”
01-26-2013, 01:58 PM
VO2 Max = 58.75mL/kg/min
~If Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week~
Learn Teach Lead
01-26-2013, 02:48 PM
Alright thanks appreciate it
01-26-2013, 03:03 PM
02-03-2013, 01:52 PM
Curious, when you taper on and off of letrozole then taper nolva, when do you add other pct? Tribulus? Cyrene pct? Or do you not have to?
02-03-2013, 02:22 PM
Use a test booster like clomid
02-03-2013, 02:43 PM
02-03-2013, 03:02 PM
UPDATE after my freak out I decided to taper up all the way to 2.5, I only felt the side effects (achey joints and low sex drive) the first 3 days and besides a little pain in my thumbs I'm perfectly fine at 2.5. I guess I'm pretty lucky im not experiencing side effects like other people. the one lump is completely gone and the other is almost gone and finally almost no pain. I'm guessing a couple more days it will be gone and then I will continue for another 7 days just to make sure, taper down, and then start using nolva afterwards for 2-3 weeks. Which dosage do you guys recommend?
02-03-2013, 09:47 PM
02-04-2013, 03:20 AM
Not exactly sure, I ended my cycle of that stuff back in September and I don't think I noticed it until like November or December and it progressively got worse. So it could be as much as 4 months that I've had it or as little as 2. Also both nipple are still puffy. I did have pubertal gyno at around age 14/15-16/18 and went away on its own so at first I really didn't put 2 and 2 together because I had this before and thought it would go away on its own
02-11-2013, 12:15 AM
- 5'10" 200 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Rep Power
That's some good info in those articles. I'm not sure what you ended up doing but once you taper off overlap the last few days switch over to a suicidal AI to inhibit estrogen rebound.
02-11-2013, 07:03 AM
Another update. Sort of strange how this liquid letro worked. The first day I started with .5 and I got hit hard. I felt achey and my joints hurt as I tapered up to 1.5 it still hurt but as I went up to 2.5 everything went away. I've been on 2.5 for almost 2 weeks and I feel like it's not working anymore. My left side still I think got rid of the lump a good amount but my right was seemed to have been going down but now back to where it was before and both are still puffy. Seems like my body fought it off or something. Anyone have anything similar?
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