4-AD trans or 4-AD Cyp?????

[Mr.50]

For guys that have used both, would you say that you can get the same results (not even as far as gains but as far as increase in libido and mood) with 4-AD trans as with 4-AD Cyp by inj? If not, was by inj much better for the above features?

Mr.50

 

[Mr.50]

bump

 

[NO MERCY]

Good question. From my research 4ad and 4ad cyp seems to be pretty comparable. 1test trasdermal vs. 1test cyp is another story though from what I hear.

 

[chasec]

it's the same molecule once the ester is removed; hence the results at an equal dose should be comparable. next bioavailability becomes the problem with trans getting roughly 15% absorbed and injectable 100%. it simply comes down to this

to pin or not to pin; that is the question.

 

[Mr.50]

Pinning or not isn't the problem, its that I don't have access to any 4-AD Cyp unless I homebrew and I am still a little leary about my ability to make a sterile solution.


Mr.50

 

[Greenguy]

The injectable is more powerful. I have done trandermal cycles at max dosage (bathed in it twice a day), and injectable cyp at 1800mg/week. You can NOT get that much 4ad into your system trandermally. It doesn't take effect as quickly but after about 2 weeks you feel it coming on strong.

Homebrewing is easy, Sledge gave his formula for 4ad cyp soultion here recently. You just have to filter it thru a whatman into a sterile vile that's it, no need to bake.

Greenguy

 

[Mr.50]

So filter through the Whatman into a sterile vile is good enough without the bake or anything else???


Mr.50

 

[CROWLER]

it's the same molecule once the ester is removed; hence the results at an equal dose should be comparable. next bioavailability becomes the problem with trans getting roughly 15% absorbed and injectable 100%. it simply comes down to this

to pin or not to pin; that is the question.

I am curious where you got the 15% and 100% figures?

They don't sound correct to me but am willing to learn.

 

[Greenguy]

So filter through the Whatman into a sterile vile is good enough without the bake or anything else???


Mr.50

That's the way I do it. Have done about 150 ml of gear that way and used it all with no problems.

Greenguy

 

[Syr]

I am curious where you got the 15% and 100% figures?

They don't sound correct to me but am willing to learn.

Yeah, they seem wrong to me.
It should be around 35% for the transdermal and 70% for the injected.

 

[chasec]

Yeah, they seem wrong to me.
It should be around 35% for the transdermal and 70% for the injected.

the transdermal absorption rate has been debated over, and over, and over. there are so many factors including the carrier you used, the penetration enhancer used, amount of it used, ect. 15% is a good, base number that doesn't overestimate what your getting. it's what sledge and custom have repeated.

as for the pinning, i'm not sure, but it should be 100%, right? people say 70% becuase the ester accounts for ~30% of molecular weight, but that has no effect on how much you are "getting." that assumes you are taking ester weight into account when you determine your dosages.

 

[Lean One]

Injection is always the better choice. Kits are easy to use as well. Just take your time. And for the record, I used to swim in 4AD trans. Injecting 4ADcyp Blew my mind. I never gained so much in a cycle.

 

[chasec]

oh, www.lionnutrition.com for the kit. you want the 4 gram kit. it'll put 10g of 4ad cyp into solution at 250mg/ml; which is an easy concentration to homebrew 4ad-cyp at.

 

[CROWLER]

the transdermal absorption rate has been debated over, and over, and over. there are so many factors including the carrier you used, the penetration enhancer used, amount of it used, ect. 15% is a good, base number that doesn't overestimate what your getting. it's what sledge and custom have repeated.

as for the pinning, i'm not sure, but it should be 100%, right? people say 70% becuase the ester accounts for ~30% of molecular weight, but that has no effect on how much you are "getting." that assumes you are taking ester weight into account when you determine your dosages.

I am not too sure about the 100% you are saying.

Also are you sure Sledge says 15% for transdermal?

This is what StrategOs says in his Avant article

INJECTABLE DELIVERY


A brief word on 4AD-cyp. I mentioned this before, but a lot of people refer to a study which pegs the conversion of 4AD to testosterone at 15.76%. However, blood work and anecdotal reports put the figure around 25%.

And for transdermal

Estimated Bioavailability

Estimated Bioavailability


25-50%. It depends a lot on the formulation you are using, how you prepare your skin, where you apply it, the concentration of the formula, etc. Do everything right, and you can estimate that closer to half of your applied active ingredients will be used by your body. If you just slop some on at random, you will probably get closer to 25%.

 

[Lean One]

oh, www.lionnutrition.com for the kit. you want the 4 gram kit. it'll put 10g of 4ad cyp into solution at 250mg/ml; which is an easy concentration to homebrew 4ad-cyp at.

Now there's some useful information! Thank you my good man! :thumbsup:

 

[Strateg0s]

Par Deus, who knows more about transdermals than most of us know about our houses, said that by using DMSO in conjunction with his transdermal formula, you could expect real world delivery of 40%. I went on to speculate that if you did everything else that I advised, including rotating the site of application and the application of DMSO after the transdermal had dried, that 50% was possible. Patrick Arnold, for his part, thinks the lot of it is nonsense, and that 10% is more realistic. I think this is flat wrong, given that Androgel gets 10%, and it is designed basically without efficiency in mind whatsoever -- the cost of the testosterone in the patch isn't a limiting factor, issues like ease of use, skin irritability, etc. are far more in play.

 

[chasec]

This is what StrategOs says in his Avant article

INJECTABLE DELIVERY


A brief word on 4AD-cyp. I mentioned this before, but a lot of people refer to a study which pegs the conversion of 4AD to testosterone at 15.76%. However, blood work and anecdotal reports put the figure around 25%.


[/I]

the point you just made has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. you just brought up conversion of 4ad to test. i'm simply talking about how much is available for your body to use. i'm not claiming it converts at 100%, i'm just saying by injecting it, you don't have the losses you do with a transdermal product. if you absorb 20%, than you are losing 80% due to it not being absorbed. with an injectable, 100% of the hormone is delivered into your muscle in a solution.

to bring this all back into perspective, 4ad is 4ad. the most efficient way to deliver it is to inject an esterfied version of it. i really don't want to quarrel over absorbtion rates. go over to avant if your really interested and check on par's threads. he says 20-40%, PA says 10%, and some people here say 15-20%. base your decisions on whatever you want, as right now it's all opinion.

 

[BAD_MO_FO]

Par Deus, who knows more about transdermals than most of us know about our houses, said that by using DMSO in conjunction with his transdermal formula, you could expect real world delivery of 40%. I went on to speculate that if you did everything else that I advised, including rotating the site of application and the application of DMSO after the transdermal had dried, that 50% was possible. Patrick Arnold, for his part, thinks the lot of it is nonsense, and that 10% is more realistic. I think this is flat wrong, given that Androgel gets 10%, and it is designed basically without efficiency in mind whatsoever -- the cost of the testosterone in the patch isn't a limiting factor, issues like ease of use, skin irritability, etc. are far more in play.

If 10% were true you would need to take 1 gram a day of 1-test trans to equal 1 gram a week of 1-test cyp. According to feedback on 1-test cyp compared to 1-test trans the 40% number sounds much more accurate.

 

[Mr.50]

Now there's some useful information! Thank you my good man! :thumbsup:

So that should mean that the 10 gram kit should be able to put 25 grms into solution at the 250mg/ml concentration correct???

Mr.50

 

[Lean One]

Guys, you gotta remember that unconverted 4AD is 95% as anabolic as test and has its own intrinsic qualities. I too feel that conversion rates are irrelevant. Absorbtion is what matters. :rant:

 

[chasec]

So that should mean that the 10 gram kit should be able to put 25 grms into solution at the 250mg/ml concentration correct???

Mr.50

The 4gram kit will put 10g of hormone (4-AD Cyp) into solution at 250mg/ml for a total of 40ml of solution. If you don't want to buy the kit, go to www.lemelange.com and buy the pieces seperately. if you go that route, PM me and i'll lay out what you need to buy.

 

[chasec]

If 10% were true you would need to take 1 gram a day of 1-test trans to equal 1 gram a week of 1-test cyp. According to feedback on 1-test cyp compared to 1-test trans the 40% number sounds much more accurate.

draw your own conclusions; i'm done arguing.

 

[travbedaman]

So filter through the Whatman into a sterile vile is good enough without the bake or anything else???


Mr.50

Yes that`s plenty, I`m using my current batch I made about two weeks ago and I did not bake nor even use a whatman filter, I just double coffee filtered it...stupid? You betcha! In no way do I recommend doing that. I`ve done it with Fina the last couple of times that way too, never had any problems though. I think next time I`ll use em just to be safe side, that does seem to be the sane thing to do.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

So filter through the Whatman into a sterile vile is good enough without the bake or anything else???


Mr.50

Are you sure? I don't see any reason NOT to bake a solution you just handled...it will not be sterile otherwise. The .45um filters will not get everything. So, I can't see it being completely sterile.

You'll be transferring materials to all kinds of things, I.E. packaged container to graduated cylinder or syringe to final vial, etc.

Just figure out desired ratio, add desired amt of 4AD, add soln, filter, and bake...look in the DS forum, he'll have instructions.

 

[chasec]

Yes that`s plenty, I`m using my current batch I made about two weeks ago and I did not bake nor even use a whatman filter, I just double coffee filtered it...stupid? You betcha! In no way do I recommend doing that. I`ve done it with Fina the last couple of times that way too, never had any problems though. I think next time I`ll use em just to be safe side, that does seem to be the sane thing to do.

wow, your really lucky.

oh, and a sterile .45 whatman should do the job for most solutions. i might run fina through a .22 than a .45 just because of what could be suspended in it.