Clomid Superdrol PCT didn't work, no libido

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Wow I really doubt a 300 ng/dl testosterone level is doing this to you.That would be absurd.
    It was 675 last check but idk if its stil going up n down. Had high estrogen and stuff. Idk man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Wow I really doubt a 300 ng/dl testosterone level is doing this to you.That would be absurd.
    I don't know what else it would be. Started directly after a crazy heavy cycle and I've been on and off serms and HCG since. So my hormones haven't found homeostasis on their own. Testes are still smaller than pre cycle. So idk what else it would be
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    Maybe you're depressed.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rippletits View Post
    Maybe you're depressed.
    Tried multiple anti depressants. Welbutrin, effexor, prozac, xanax, and even adderall. I don't know why id be depressed starting right when I started a big cycle. I still laugh a lot and can enjoy life, it's just not as good because I don't have the energy to do what I could before. I feel like a zombie and jet lagged all day. I do think that's a possibility sometimes though. I think all these PCTs and HCG have just messed with me. I just don't have motivation to exercise or be a dominant male and I don't have energy or sexual urges or anything enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    Tried multiple anti depressants. I don't know why id be depressed starting right when I started a big cycle. I still laugh a lot and can enjoy life, it's just not as good because I don't have the energy to do what I could before. I feel like a zombie and jet lagged all day
    The body is a complex system. You may have developed depression as a result of the harsh cycle and its effects on your hormonal system, but that doesn't mean it automatically lifts once your hormonal balance is restored. And not all depression responds effectively to medication.

    You may have developed a functional mental health condition.

    I would recommend speaking to your doctor about whether a referral to a clinical psychologist would be appropriate, ensuring they are properly apprised of your gear use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rippletits View Post

    The body is a complex system. You may have developed depression as a result of the harsh cycle and its effects on your hormonal system, but that doesn't mean it automatically lifts once your hormonal balance is restored. And not all depression responds effectively to medication.

    You may have developed a functional mental health condition, for example dissociative disorder.

    I would recommend speaking to your doctor about whether a referral to a clinical psychologist would be appropriate, ensuring they are properly apprised of your gear use.
    I've thought that as well. I have talked to a psych doctor but how would they know the answer if it could be caused my steroid shut as well? You can't really test for a difference between shutdown and a disassociation disorder. It FEELS just like my first pct and shutdown time. That's a big reason I don't think it's a disorder. Last time just after pct my testicles blew up and I felt great. That hasn't happened this time. They are like half or 65% of their usual size. Believe me though, I've contemplated this a lot. That's one reason I'm so stressed. I really feel like all the stress and anxiety is a result of shutdown. Idk how much a disassociation disorder would affect my workout recoveries, inability to lose fat, no results in workouts, energy levels, aggression, dominance and that aspect. I do see how it could affect my unwillingness to 'go out' and all that.
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    The thing is sometimes I get those feelings pretty bad then other times I couldn't give a **** about the bad **** I did. I'm at peace and its just like whatever **** happens. And I'm not upset. It's like an emotional roller coaster. Just more often right now that its to the negative side. Anybody have these kind of PCT sides? Mood swing like a bia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Wow I really doubt a 300 ng/dl testosterone level is doing this to you.That would be absurd.
    Killer is right, test in the 300 s would certainly not cause all of this. Im very interested to see what the effects of the androgens were on that "inactive"pituitary tumor you have. Your numbers in all honesty are not fine for your age, but like i said before, certainly not catastrophic. It should be noted that your LH numbers were alarming. Your hormones based on those bloods were out of whack, and thats likely causing SOME of this. The rest is quite possibly dopamine related as Killer also mentioned before, but i caution you against taking anything, including l-dopa, such that we get the most clear, unadulterated blood picture possible. High LH is usually indicative of hypogonadism, but again its hard to say if those lh numbers were a direct result of the serms. Your test is perfectly fine, its all the other stuff that concerns me. You need to go see a mental health specialist as well to help you cope with this until the hormonal issues are sorted out. You must understand, this needs more time. You need to fight thru that brain fog and keep chugging along. Its not the end of the world and in all honesty, your anxiety is likely adding to the problem. A good shrink will help you take control of these emotions and cope with the stress. Do not underestimate the power of the brain to influence how the rest of the body feels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    Killer is right, test in the 300 s would certainly not cause all of this. Im very interested to see what the effects of the androgens were on that "inactive"pituitary tumor you have. Your numbers in all honesty are not fine for your age, but like i said before, certainly not catastrophic. It should be noted that your LH numbers were alarming. Your hormones based on those bloods were out of whack, and thats likely causing SOME of this. The rest is quite possibly dopamine related as Killer also mentioned before, but i caution you against taking anything, including l-dopa, such that we get the most clear, unadulterated blood picture possible. High LH is usually indicative of hypogonadism, but again its hard to say if those lh numbers were a direct result of the serms. Your test is perfectly fine, its all the other stuff that concerns me. You need to go see a mental health specialist as well to help you cope with this until the hormonal issues are sorted out. You must understand, this needs more time. You need to fight thru that brain fog and keep chugging along. Its not the end of the world and in all honesty, your anxiety is likely adding to the problem. A good shrink will help you take control of these emotions and cope with the stress. Do not underestimate the power of the brain to influence how the rest of the body feels.
    Well those bloods I posted are old. Chek the dates. The alarming LH was at the end of a clomid run. Clomid was still in my system when i got those done. As of 2/3 weeks ago my Tetosterone is 675 LH 4 FSH 2 E2 27 Total Estrogen 170. Can steroids affect an inactive pituitary tumor? Met 2 different neurologists and they both said it wasn't affecting me at all.
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    The only reason I'm so stressed and anxious is because I don't have energy or sex drive. Not via versa. I still feel shutdown. I'm probably still adjusting. I ****ed with my hormones with serms and HCG until 5 weeks ago. I'm assuming I'm still adjusting. I'm not crazy or depressed or a different person. Shut down and off hormones are just making me feel this way. I'm sure it'll all go away once my body has found homeostasis. Everyone's homeostasis is different. My anxiety and sadness stems from knowing I'm not sexually right and won't be ready if the opportunity presented itself because I don't have a libido. If that makes sense...
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    If the serms and OTC test boosters are skewing my Testosterone levels and they come back lower after my next blood test, what do I do? If they are low, small testicles, no energy or libido, what is next? When I took the HCG at 2,000 IU eod for a few weeks me testicles didn't get any bigger. Would all that mean that my testicles won't respond an make enough testosterone and grow on their own? Why doesn't my Testosterone stay high after stopping serms... Do I NEED to go clean of all T boosters? Why don't my testicles grow with such high LH and a good FSH?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post

    Well those bloods I posted are old. Chek the dates. The alarming LH was at the end of a clomid run. Clomid was still in my system when i got those done. As of 2/3 weeks ago my Tetosterone is 675 LH 4 FSH 2 E2 27 Total Estrogen 170. Can steroids affect an inactive pituitary tumor? Met 2 different neurologists and they both said it wasn't affecting me at all.
    Serms like clomid and torem block estrogen at the pituitary. Estrogen is incredibly suppressive of testosterone production. Likewise the name SERM OR selective estrogen receptor modulator. This is total theory i have no evidence to support this claim, nonetheless i think that tumor may quite possibly degrading the effect of the serms. Again, this is far fetched but certainly possible. In that regard, you are not totally unresponsive and if LH is 4 after all that, you are not shutdown. Fsh is also on the lower range. You are not however fully recovered either. The fact that your testicles have even regained some of there size considering the severity of the cycle is remarkable in my opinion. Even tho you dont feel it, you are making progress. Your anxiety is understandable, you must feel like ****, no one is blaming you for that. You attempted a kitchen sink approach in trying to fix something infinitely more complex than the architecture of a microprocessor. Get the jist? Right now you have all of the symptoms of hypogonadism but you are not hypogonadal. As such, the mechanisms built into your body are attempting to reset the process. It will likely get even worse before it gets better, but make no mistake, it will get better. In the meantime, your job is to support this recovery. You will need a new serm protocol after you are done detoxing and new bloods come in. You will also need to reduce the e2 And total estrogen. Your body is gunna have alot to do in the next coming month, thats why i said come off everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    If the serms and OTC test boosters are skewing my Testosterone levels and they come back lower after my next blood test, what do I do? If they are low, small testicles, no energy or libido, what is next? When I took the HCG at 2,000 IU eod for a few weeks me testicles didn't get any bigger. Would all that mean that my testicles won't respond an make enough testosterone and grow on their own? Why doesn't my Testosterone stay high after stopping serms... Do I NEED to go clean of all T boosters? Why don't my testicles grow with such high LH and a good FSH?
    If you took that much hcg in that short of period with no response in testicle size, one of 3 things is happening:
    1. Your hcg was bunk, and im putting my money on this one.
    2. You caused lydig cell desensitization, again unlikely.
    3. Your testes are unresponsive to lh signal. This is unlikely as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    Serms like clomid and torem block estrogen at the pituitary. Estrogen is incredibly suppressive of testosterone production. Likewise the name SERM OR selective estrogen receptor modulator. This is total theory i have no evidence to support this claim, nonetheless i think that tumor may quite possibly degrading the effect of the serms. Again, this is far fetched but certainly possible. In that regard, you are not totally unresponsive and if LH is 4 after all that, you are not shutdown. Fsh is also on the lower range. You are not however fully recovered either. The fact that your testicles have even regained some of there size considering the severity of the cycle is remarkable in my opinion. Even tho you dont feel it, you are making progress. Your anxiety is understandable, you must feel like ****, no one is blaming you for that. You attempted a kitchen sink approach in trying to fix something infinitely more complex than the architecture of a microprocessor. Get the jist? Right now you have all of the symptoms of hypogonadism but you are not hypogonadal. As such, the mechanisms built into your body are attempting to reset the process. It will likely get even worse before it gets better, but make no mistake, it will get better. In the meantime, your job is to support this recovery. You will need a new serm protocol after you are done detoxing and new bloods come in. You will also need to reduce the e2 And total estrogen. Your body is gunna have alot to do in the next coming month, thats why i said come off everything.
    Okay. Just a few questions. What makes you think the tumor could be down grading the serm's effectiveness? How long should I wait til getting bloods again? What kind of new SERM protocol would I have to run... Because if I end up with low T won't that mean Serms aren't gonna work for me? They boost the T in my body, but it's drops after. How will doing a longer or different SERM protocol do any different?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    If you took that much hcg in that short of period with no response in testicle size, one of 3 things is happening:
    1. Your hcg was bunk, and im putting my money on this one.
    2. You caused lydig cell desensitization, again unlikely.
    3. Your testes are unresponsive to lh signal. This is unlikely as well.
    I tested it with a pregnancy strip and it was good. They didn't grow much at all. Maybe 10% and they firmed up. HCG doesn't have an effect of FSH and Sertoli Cell size though does it? That's what makes up most of the testes' size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    Serms like clomid and torem block estrogen at the pituitary. Estrogen is incredibly suppressive of testosterone production. Likewise the name SERM OR selective estrogen receptor modulator. This is total theory i have no evidence to support this claim, nonetheless i think that tumor may quite possibly degrading the effect of the serms. Again, this is far fetched but certainly possible. In that regard, you are not totally unresponsive and if LH is 4 after all that, you are not shutdown. Fsh is also on the lower range. You are not however fully recovered either. The fact that your testicles have even regained some of there size considering the severity of the cycle is remarkable in my opinion. Even tho you dont feel it, you are making progress. Your anxiety is understandable, you must feel like ****, no one is blaming you for that. You attempted a kitchen sink approach in trying to fix something infinitely more complex than the architecture of a microprocessor. Get the jist? Right now you have all of the symptoms of hypogonadism but you are not hypogonadal. As such, the mechanisms built into your body are attempting to reset the process. It will likely get even worse before it gets better, but make no mistake, it will get better. In the meantime, your job is to support this recovery. You will need a new serm protocol after you are done detoxing and new bloods come in. You will also need to reduce the e2 And total estrogen. Your body is gunna have alot to do in the next coming month, thats why i said come off everything.
    I mean the LH was sky high ON SERM so I don't think the tumor would be affecting it. It was a harsh cycle but only last like 6-8 weeks, wouldn't a 12 or 16 weeker be worse if anything? Don't see how my testes and energy isn't the back to normal... I stopped all test boosters about a week ago and serms 6 weeks ago but also ran Torem for 3 days last week then decided I should stop so that my bloods are good.
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    I only get anxiety and stuff when I think about going out and social things because its hard to keep up with low test. No energy drive mental fatigue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    Okay. Just a few questions. What makes you think the tumor could be down grading the serm's effectiveness? How long should I wait til getting bloods again? What kind of new SERM protocol would I have to run... Because if I end up with low T won't that mean Serms aren't gonna work for me? They boost the T in my body, but it's drops after. How will doing a longer or different SERM protocol do any different?
    1. I said it was a remote possibilty, its just a theory. If two neurologists cleared you then what the hell do i know lol?
    2. You should get bloods 3 weeks from the date of your last serm dose.
    3. You would run clomid again followed by an AI. Clomid would be run low dose, im talking 25 mg for the first 3 weeks then taperd to 12.5 for the remaining 3. In cases like yours there usually a better response to low dose, longer duration protocols.
    4. Your T is not low, its average. Maybe its not what it was before, but its not shutdown level. My biggest concern is getting your testes back up size, legit clomid dosed correctly does this well.
    5. I offer no guarantees that this will work, I dont know and take my advice at your own risk. I have access only to the information you give me remember that. But I just dont see what you did as a catastrophic, its very fixable I just think you went about it the wrong way. There are guys that have run for harsher cycles for far longer that have recovered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    1. I said it was a remote possibilty, its just a theory. If two neurologists cleared you then what the hell do i know lol?
    2. You should get bloods 3 weeks from the date of your last serm dose.
    3. You would run clomid again followed by an AI. Clomid would be run low dose, im talking 25 mg for the first 3 weeks then taperd to 12.5 for the remaining 3. In cases like yours there usually a better response to low dose, longer duration protocols.
    4. Your T is not low, its average. Maybe its not what it was before, but its not shutdown level. My biggest concern is getting your testes back up size, legit clomid dosed correctly does this well.
    5. I offer no guarantees that this will work, I dont know and take my advice at your own risk. I have access only to the information you give me remember that. But I just dont see what you did as a catastrophic, its very fixable I just think you went about it the wrong way. There are guys that have run for harsher cycles for far longer that have recovered.
    I agree I should definately be able to recover. I think the T boosters and serms have been giving false readings to be honest. I thought clomid would plump my balls up but for some reason they haven't before. Doesn't make sense. Ill get bloods in a few more weeks again. **** I'm just tired of this... Don't understand why none of my PCT attempts helped my testes. It's killin me to not know what to do.
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    Damn being shut down sucks. I feel like garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    Damn being shut down sucks. I feel like garbage

    Hang in there bud, well figure it out dont worry!
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    Damn being shut down sucks. I feel like garbage
    You are probably not shut down.
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    You need to chase up a Doc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post

    You are probably not shut down.
    My test drops every time I end a SERM or test booster... Nuts shrunken to maybe 50% maybe even more. Very small and very soft. Like squishy grapes. They were like golf balls before. What else would it be? Do you have any idea why the serms and HCG haven't blown up my nuts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You need to chase up a Doc.
    Talked to several.
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    Feels just like last shutdown. Last time my balls energy libido sense of well being all came back at the same time. This time none of those have come back. Last time I used OTC PCT. this time I've used multiple serms and T boosters.
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    This has probably even answered before but if SERMS work via negative feedback loop and we use them, why don't we just use anti E's for PCT instead? Wouldn't that do the same thing? I know it would lower estrogen super low and it would be hard on joints libido and gains but once you tapered off wouldn't it be better? No SERM sides, no clomid girlyness and all that? What's the reasoning behind the SERM when we have anti E's?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    This has probably even answered before but if SERMS work via negative feedback loop and we use them, why don't we just use anti E's for PCT instead? Wouldn't that do the same thing? I know it would lower estrogen super low and it would be hard on joints libido and gains but once you tapered off wouldn't it be better? No SERM sides, no clomid girlyness and all that? What's the reasoning behind the SERM when we have anti E's?
    Because serms are selective to certain target tissues. They work ia totally different mechanisms. Like you said AI drugs lower E2 as a sum, but do not prevent estro from binding to certain tissues; in other words, no serm and AI instead will mean that there will still be some binding of estrogen to the pituitary even tho your total amount of estrogen is low. SERMS on the other hand may not reduce estrogen in sum, but they will selectively inhibit the binding of estro at the target tissue, in our case, the pituitary gland. Does that make sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    This has probably even answered before but if SERMS work via negative feedback loop and we use them, why don't we just use anti E's for PCT instead? Wouldn't that do the same thing? I know it would lower estrogen super low and it would be hard on joints libido and gains but once you tapered off wouldn't it be better? No SERM sides, no clomid girlyness and all that? What's the reasoning behind the SERM when we have anti E's?
    The clomid girliness can be avoided by taking low dose clomid and taking it before bed( the longer you sleep the better) so you dont have to deal with alot of the sides while your awake. Works for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    Because serms are selective to certain target tissues. They work ia totally different mechanisms. Like you said AI drugs lower E2 as a sum, but do not prevent estro from binding to certain tissues; in other words, no serm and AI instead will mean that there will still be some binding of estrogen to the pituitary even tho your total amount of estrogen is low. SERMS on the other hand may not reduce estrogen in sum, but they will selectively inhibit the binding of estro at the target tissue, in our case, the pituitary gland. Does that make sense?
    Yeah it does. I still don't see why clomid would be better than an AI. If you wanted to take care of estrogen binding then you'd probly choose nolvadex. But why is it any Better at test production?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    Because serms are selective to certain target tissues. They work ia totally different mechanisms. Like you said AI drugs lower E2 as a sum, but do not prevent estro from binding to certain tissues; in other words, no serm and AI instead will mean that there will still be some binding of estrogen to the pituitary even tho your total amount of estrogen is low. SERMS on the other hand may not reduce estrogen in sum, but they will selectively inhibit the binding of estro at the target tissue, in our case, the pituitary gland. Does that make sense?
    So serms reduce estrogen in the brain? And AI's reduce estrogen in the body? Not sure if I'm grasping what you're saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xams2387 View Post
    Yeah it does. I still don't see why clomid would be better than an AI. If you wanted to take care of estrogen binding then you'd probly choose nolvadex. But why is it any Better at test production?
    No, you wouldnt chose nolvadex, there is a reason i suggest clomid. Im going to put this in bullets so its easier to understand.

    1. You dont chose nolva because it has a far higher affinity to bone and breast tissue than it does for the HPTA. Tamoxifen was not designed to bind to estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus, even tho it does this to a minor extent.
    2. Clomid=synthethic estrogen that binds to hypothalamus---->binding to estrogen receptors in hypothalamus inhibits negative feedback loop.
    More gonadrophins, more production of test in the most simplifed manner possible. Using an AI will either bind up to estrogen or to the aromatase enzyme, great, but its not gunna get all the estrogen. As such, theres gunna be some left over to bind both in the testes and hpta inhibiting proper hormone production. Clomid is king in my opinion because, it, of all the known serms,(it may have changed with the new generation of serms on the market but i dunno) it has the highest binding affinity to receptors in the hypothalamus, the zone we are most concerned with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbb123 View Post

    No, you wouldnt chose nolvadex, there is a reason i suggest clomid. Im going to put this in bullets so its easier to understand.

    1. You dont chose nolva because it has a far higher affinity to bone and breast tissue than it does for the HPTA. Tamoxifen was not designed to bind to estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus, even tho it does this to a minor extent.
    2. Clomid=synthethic estrogen that binds to hypothalamus---->binding to estrogen receptors in hypothalamus inhibits negative feedback loop.
    More gonadrophins, more production of test in the most simplifed manner possible. Using an AI will either bind up to estrogen or to the aromatase enzyme, great, but its not gunna get all the estrogen. As such, theres gunna be some left over to bind both in the testes and hpta inhibiting proper hormone production. Clomid is king in my opinion because, it, of all the known serms,(it may have changed with the new generation of serms on the market but i dunno) it has the highest binding affinity to receptors in the hypothalamus, the zone we are most concerned with.
    Okay thanks. Makes some sense. Any clue as to why T drops after stopping a SERM? Do you think 2 weeks was long enough for HCG? Why hasn't my testes size increased? Btw I did after about 4 days on Nolva during this last restart but a few days later I woke up and they were small again.
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    Does anyone think that I didn't run a SERM long enough? 3-4 weeks is what I ran each time... Do you usually run pct until testes are back to size and you feel better?
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    In general a SERM is run for four weeks. This of course can vary based on the individual and the circumstances, but four weeks is the starting point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris223 View Post
    In general a SERM is run for four weeks. This of course can vary based on the individual and the circumstances, but four weeks is the starting point.
    Is it possible i need to run it for 6-8 weeks until my testicles plump up or is it a lost cause?
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    Anyone? If testes and shutdown symptoms aren't gone after 4 weeks of pct, do you keep running it until everything feels better?
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    STOP

    Stop taking everything. Allow your body to reach homeostasis by itself. SERMs kill libido and you keep doing SERMs to try and restart your HPTA. It can take 6 weeks AFTER I'VE FINISHED a serm for my sex drive to return fully. Allow your body to get back to normal without any interference. If after SIX MONTHS your test is lower than 300 you have permanently damaged your HPTA and will need TRT for life.

    /thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logman View Post
    STOP

    Stop taking everything. Allow your body to reach homeostasis by itself. SERMs kill libido and you keep doing SERMs to try and restart your HPTA. It can take 6 weeks AFTER I'VE FINISHED a serm for my sex drive to return fully. Allow your body to get back to normal without any interference. If after SIX MONTHS your test is lower than 300 you have permanently damaged your HPTA and will need TRT for life.

    /thread.
    It's been 6 and a half weeks since I stopped them. No improvement. My LH and FSH can rise with clomid obviously but my testicles are still small and have low testosterone sides. Do you have an explanation as to why my testicles are still so small? Grapes at best.. Going crazy because of this
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    Small testes means one thing, no natural test production. Like I said, it can come back months down the road. Low libido can mean high or low estrogen but no nutz means no test.

    You are not helping your HPTA at this point. You need to cease all serms and wait it out. You need monthly blood tests to see if your test is slowly rising and you need to reassess your medical situation six months after any serm has finished. If your test creeps up above 300 you will probably recover. Any blood test less than a month out of PCT is meaningless to gauge recovery because excess test generated by the serm can still be circulating.

    You've been advised to wait it out and that is what you should do. Studies have shown homeostasis taking NINE MONTHS in some subjects. Steroids can also shutdown your HPTA permanently in which case you'll be eligle for TRT.

    Also, many people live through this so just suck it up. Viagra and Cialis are easy to come by if you are worried about performance with a chick. Why do you think these meds are a multi-billion dollar industry? Because many people in their 50s (or even 40s) suffer from low test and can't get it up. TRT would be much more beneficial, even self-administered if you can't get a decent endo. 250mg Test e per week is going to cost about $10 from a UGL. You have loads of options once you know your situation. Just wait a few months in the knowledgethat whatever happens it's going to be fine (better than fine if you get TRT ).
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