Best to lower BF
- 10-21-2004, 11:51 PM
- 10-21-2004, 11:55 PM
well there's DNP ... but i would do A TON OF RESEARCH before touching that stuff
its incredibly effective ... however, one of the side effects could potentially be death
- 10-22-2004, 03:47 AM
anavar has been shown to lower bf levels
10-22-2004, 07:23 AM
- 6'4" 269 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
Trimax works good if you want to go on the thyroid manipulation route. If not, ECA or ECY works decent, not as good as clen, but its almost as good. You could also look into a transdermal 7 keto, never tried it, but I've heard good things. I always find it easier to kill BF when I'm on some sort of anabolic.....methyl D and MOHN work good for cutting purposes. Maybe something like:
week 1-6: 32 mg MOHN ED OR 10-12 mg MD ED
week 2-5: Trimax (start at 1 and work up to 2-3 pills, then go back to 1) ED
ECA or ECY 75mg Ephedra ED with the right ratio of CA or CY
week 6-9: Transdermal 7-keto, ECA or ECY (same dose), maybe some Guggulbolic
week 7-10: Nolva 60/40/20/20
10-22-2004, 11:34 AM
10-22-2004, 03:18 PM
DIET AND CARDIO. Ya gotta do them anyway, just do these to drop BF.
It will work if you work it.
10-22-2004, 03:54 PM
11-13-2004, 03:25 PM
Do not touch dnp! That **** is rat poison and eat you up from inside.
11-13-2004, 06:12 PM
diet and cardio in line first.. gear is used to keep the muscle lose to a mininum
11-13-2004, 06:32 PM
Here an old post about DNP.
DNP stands for 2,4-dinitrophenol. This is a chemical that was once used in the early 20th century to ignite dynamite and cast a yellow dye on wood and other handcrafts. A few years later demographical statistics showed that employees who worked with DNP everyday tended to lose weight, often rapidly. One fall out from this was a study conducted by Stanford University in 1920 showing that the ingestion of DNP does in fact cause weight loss. This prompted physicians to prescribe DNP to obese patients of that era. DNP was on the market for 2 decades as a weight loss drug and was eventually taken off the market and banned for human consumption by the FDA because there was a report of cataract formation among female users of this drug which turned out to be false. This chemical is still deemed too dangerous by the FDA to allow it to come back to the pharmaceutical marketplace. Over the decades of research on DNP, scientists have never shown it to have the ability to cause cancer or any other mutations despite the fact that itâ€™s a phenol and that most phenolic compounds are carcinogenic. DNP is now only used as a research chemical and as a pesticide in a few states that still approve of its use. It is not illegal to own DNP, but it is illegal to market it for personal consumption.
Ever notice that everyone says that its extremely dangerous but never really back it up with anything? I do. So heres some actual studies about DNP.
DNP is Ames negative, and does not promote tumors. See for yourself at http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/dinitrop.html reports on health risks. While there have not been human studies, animal studies found no cancers caused by DNP administration. It is considered a toxin because it causes nausea, sweating, and weight loss.
http://www.cyberiron.com/drugs/dinitrophenol.html reports on health risks from external exposure. In other words, don’t get it in your eyes, or on your skin if you’re allergic. Pretty elementary stuff.
http://www.ebec2000.com/abstracts/056.htm This animal study documents a 64% increase in metabolism. "These findings confirm that DNP effectively increases metabolic rate..." Duh.
http://www.zymed.com/pdf/04-xxxx/04-8300.pdf A PDF file about an antidote to DNP.
http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.es/...glesa/cap13.htm finds that DNP did not activate liver enzymes (MAT) associated with liver damage
"Comparative study of toxicity of 4-nitrophenol and 2,4-dinitrophenol in newborn and young rats." Koizumi M, Yamamoto Y, Ito Y, Takano M, Enami T, Kamata E, Hasegawa R. Division of Risk Assessment, National Institute of Health Sciences, 1-18-1 Kamiyoga, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 158-8501, Japan. This study found that DNP can induce death in overdosed amounts, but that up to that point no toxicity was evident, nor were there any abnormalities in physical development.
"Phenol toxicity and conjugation in human colonic epithelial cells." Pedersen G, Brynskov J, Saermark T. Dept of Medical Gastroenterology, Herlev University Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.. This study found that DNP has a toxic effect on cells of the colon, with "toxic" defined in two ways: first, it interfered with metabolism (this we know—it’s the intended effect of DNP users!) and second, it interfered with bowel inflammation (not a health risk. This is caused by osmotic effect, with the worst result being softened stools and gas).
"Mechanisms of bacterial resistance to macrolide antibiotics." Nakajima Y. Division of Microbiology, Hokkaido College of Pharmacy, 7-1 Katsuraoka-cho, Otaru, Hokkaido 047-0264, Japan. This study found that antibiotic-resistant bacteria could be thwarted with DNP. "the extent of the accumulated drug in a resistant cell increases as much as that in a susceptible cell in the presence of an uncoupling agent such as…2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP)."
"Absence of Crabtree effect in human melanoma cells adapted to growth at low pH: reversal by respiratory inhibitors." Burd R, Wachsberger PR, Biaglow JE, Wahl ML, Lee I, Leeper DB. Departments of Radiation Oncology, Kimmel Cancer Center, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107, USA. Check this out—DNP actually helps make melanoma tumors easier to attack by increasing ratio of oxygen consumption to lactic acid production, while glycolysis remains the same. "Therefore, tumor acute acidification and oxygenation can be achieved by exposure…"
"New insights in the cellular processing of platinum antitumor compounds, using fluorophore-labeled platinum complexes and digital fluorescence microscopy."
Molenaar C, Teuben JM, Heetebrij RJ, Tanke HJ, Reedijk J. Department of Molecular Cell Biology, Leiden University Medical Centre, The Netherlands. DNP is used as a control in tests of antitumor cells because it does NOT bind to cell DNA, nor promote tumors, yet its staining abilities enable tracking of the uptake of antitumor drugs.
Specific inhibition of breast cancer cells by antisense poly-DNP-oligoribonucleotides and targeted apoptosis." Ru K, Taub ML, Wang JH. Department of Biochemistry, State University of New York, Buffalo 14260-3000, USA Are you ready for this? DNP actually INHIBITS (!!!) breast cancers! Yes, not only does it NOT promote cancers, it’s being recognized as a cancer-fighter/blocker. "Two membrane-permeable and RNase-resistant antisense poly-2'-O-(2,4-dinitrophenyl)-oligoribonucleotides (poly-DNP-RNAs) have been synthesized as inhibitors of human breast cancer…fluorescence assay indicates that the targeted antisense inhibition by poly-DNP-RNAs leads to apoptosis of SK-Br-3 cells but does not affect nontumorigenic MCF-10A cells. The control poly-DNP-RNAs with random or sense nucleotide sequence are completely inactive." Plain English? DNP is being synthesized as an anti-cancer compound, because tests show that it blocks mutagens but does NOT affect non-mutagenic (healthy) cells, and has no RNA effects on them.
"Heat shock protein induction by certain chemical stressors is correlated with their cytotoxicity, lipophilicity and protein-denaturing capacity." Neuhaus-Steinmetz U, Rensing L. Institute of Cell Biology, Biochemistry and Biotechnology, NW II University of Bremen, Germany. The thermic effect of DNP induces protein synthesis (heat shock protein, or HSP, synthesis). In fact, it’s quite GOOD at it: "ASA, DNP and CCCP induced HSP at lower concentrations than substances with a similar lipophilicity…"
"Comparative effects of the metabolic inhibitors 2,4-dinitrophenol and iodoacetate on mouse neuroblastoma cells in vitro." Andres MI, Repetto G, Sanz P, Repetto M.
National Institute of Toxicology, Seville, Spain. In this study, DNP’s observed effect was an increase in metabolism (duh!), while the other toxins compared to it had harmful in vitro effects but no increase in metabolism.
"Inhibition of uncoupled respiration in tumor cells. A possible role of mitochondrial Ca2+ efflux." Gabai VL.Medical Radiology Research Center, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Obninsk. DNP not only does not cause tumors, but it inhibited their respiration by 20-25% compared to controls.
"Amsacrine-induced lesions in DNA and their modulation by novobiocin and 2,4-dinitrophenol." Shibuya ML, Buddenbaum WE, Don AL, Utsumi H, Suciu D, Kosaka T, Elkind MM. Department of Radiology and Radiation Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins 80523. In this study, researchers found that DNP abrogates—or disrupts—cytotoxicity in hamsters (using cancerous cells). They expected to find that DNP would interfere with anticancer treatments, but instead found that DNP increased their effects. They state, though, that they cannot claim a proven effect of DNP on anticancer treatments yet, although they do agree that treatment with DNP actually enhanced the effects of the DNA regenerative therapy of anticancer chemotherapy.
"Induction of endonucleolytic DNA cleavage in human acute myelogenous leukemia cells by etoposide, camptothecin, and other cytotoxic anticancer drugs: a cautionary note." Kaufmann SH. Oncology Center, Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland 21205. The authors warn that certain anti-leukemia drugs resulted in "extensive DNA degradation." BUT(good ol’ DNP to the rescue!), "Preincubation with dinitrophenol abolished the effect…"
"[Dependence of the nature of the action of metabolic inhibitors on ribosomal RNA synthesis in Ehrlich ascites carcinoma cells on cell integrity]" [Article in Russian] Akhlynina TV, Buzhurina IM, Panov MA, Rozovskaia IA, Chernaia NG. DNP actually inhibits the synthesis of RNA in carcinoma cells. In other words, it helps cancerous cells commit suicide. "Ribosomal RNA (rRNA) synthesis in the intact Ehrlich ascite carcinoma cells is selectively inhibited by papaverin (ED50 = 0.01 mM), 2,4-dinitrophenol (DPN; ED50 = 5 microM), and actinomycin D (ED50 = 0.1 microgram/ml)."
"Autocatabolism of surface macromolecules shed by human melanoma cells."
Bystryn JC, Perlstein J. Cancer Res 1982 Jun;42(6):2232-7. This study finds that DNP helps
melanoma cells die (autocatabolize) while other cells are unaffected.
http://www.geocities.com/byggdegstor/dnpforside - tons of research, including medical studies. Excerpts:
DNP does not cause liver damage: "Their analyses demonstrate, beyond a doubt, that the liver does not suffer any damage in the course of dinitro treatment." (Biological Study of Dinitro Drugs in Humans By Dr. Jacques Bell. Bell, Jacques. 1939. Etude biologique des produits dinitres chez l'homme. Medecine. 19:749-54. Translation © 1996 Robert Ames)
Also: "Experimental studies on animals do not show toxic effects of dinitrophenol on the kidney. Anatomical-pathological examinations of animals, even those which died from a massive dose of dinitrophenol, do not reveal any important anatomical changes, except a small degree of cytolysis. Clinical documents are not abundant, but, on the whole, do not seem to demonstrate that dinitrophenol is toxic for the kidneys."
"Dinitrophenol has almost no action on the blood cholesterol. (Grant and Schube)."
"it doesn't seem that dinitrophenol at usual clinical doses is likely to harm the kidneys."
"Dinitrophenol is remarkable for its absence of effect on the cardio-vascular system...dinitrophenol is absolutely devoid of toxicity for the heart."
"Dinitrophenol does not attack cell tissue albumin and does not determine the fat loss to the expense of the muscles, contrary to thyroxine."
"dinitrophenol offers this precious advantage that the cessation of its use at the slightest appearance of signs indicating an imminence of intoxication results immediately in the arrest of those symptoms." (Professor Pouchet)."
Interestingly, one medical theory on a health ADVANTAGE of DNP is that the slight increase in thermogenic temperature simulates the fever a body induces during a viral attack. The body increases itsheat to protect organs but kill viruses, and some theorize that DNP can do the same thing, thus killing viruses in the body. In this mechanism, DNP may have an immune-enhancing effect.
So, as you can see, when taken in moderate doseages (lets say 200mgs per day), its quite safe. The lethal dose is roughly 20-30mg/kg.
Lots of guys are runnin DNP at www.bodyrecomposition.com (Lyle Mcdonalds site). Check it out.
11-14-2004, 10:06 AM
Tren is the obvious answer, all these other weak anabolics aren't androgenic enough to keep your existing muscle mass from wasting away and tren is awesome at that, plus tren ups your body temperature and doesn't convert to estrogen
11-14-2004, 11:10 AM
Yea, tren's awesome for rippin people up and enhancing bodycomposition to great degree. My only beef with tren is the side effects (night sweats, insomnia, aggression) and the fact that it completely destroys your lipids. Just don't forget there have been no studies regarding it's safety/unsafety.
11-14-2004, 01:09 PM
1. Cardio and diet
2. Test prop, tren, anavar, and t3. This stack should help you get lean. However, if you bodyfat is relatively high, then you should really stick to 1..
11-14-2004, 01:46 PM
I agree. Typically, the best way to do anything is take the most basic route. And, as always, I recommend you look into the Ultimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle Mcdonald.
11-15-2004, 05:22 AM
Isnt that what its supposed to do?Originally Posted by TheManGuy
and dont forget clen isnt an anabolic.
11-17-2004, 07:45 PM
If your diet is in order, tren will rip fat off like nothing else. 500mg/week of tren e (with some test thrown in for flavor) made me lose fat taking in 6000 calories a day... Just to give you an idea.
11-19-2004, 12:11 PM
Sorry guys for being a freaking idiot, but when you are talking about destroying lipids, what does that mean???
11-19-2004, 02:40 PM
dropping HDL -- espcially hdl-2 precipitously...
ramping up LDL significantly...
results in an hdl/ldl ratio that is abhorrent..
also plenty of these aas will increase the triglycerides as well and drop the Lp(A)...
So while on cycle and for several months after, many many people according to the cholesterol
hypothesis are in fact depositing plaque in their arteries... then again.. ACS says that 4-years is
the minimum time with hyperlipidemia to consider it a cardio risk factor.. as a rule of thumb.. plenty of
people would rather look at the CRP and homocysteine vs. cholesterol these days... then again a signficant
population of persons experiencing CVEs were not hyperlipidemia and had no prior cardiac conditions -- and from a lab
perspective looked fine....
food for thought
Originally Posted by Ript22Swole
11-21-2004, 04:18 PM
iD DO A TEST PROP- TREN- PRIMO- WINNY CYCLE. YOU WILL LOOSE FAT GET SOME KEEPABLE MUSCLE.
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