My thoughts about a 4AD/4OHT cycle

[Syr]

I want to try this combo for my second cycle starting in november.
I'm not going to make my own trans this time and buying powders oversea is not easy, so i'll invest more in time and efforts next time if this works good. Price is not my main concern, while it is sides (hair and bph after all), so i'm avoiding any 5aa/3aa stuff to stack.

6 weeks of:
400mg 4AD transdermal (4Derm, 2 servings a day)
400mg 4OHT cyp oral (VPX 4-HT, 2 servings a day)

How does this sound?
Should i reduce the 4ad and add 1test instead (replacing 4Derm with S1+ for istance).
Any comments are welcome

 

[the Cardinal]

I have used 1-test and 4OHT and 1-test and 4AD on separate occasions, and the 1-test/4OHT stack was superior in all the ways that mattered to me:
1) greater strength gains, 2) better body composition gains, 3) better libido (although this wasn't a goal, it was a nice surprise), 4) and zero water retention. Maybe it's me, but I always retain water when I use 4AD in a stack, and since I discovered 4OHT, I have no use for it anymore. FYI - I've used both 1-test, 4AD, and 4OHT orals and transdermals in various combos over the past year or so, and I dig the 1-test transdermal/4OHT oral stack best. Of course, I'm the only idiot on the board who openly espouses 4OHT use alone (400 - 600 mg/day oral is expensive, but worth it to me because minimal PCT is needed, and the toatal cost of a cycle + PCT makes it competitive with other prosteroid/prohormone cycles + PCT), so maybe I've developed a bias, who knows?

Should i reduce the 4ad and add 1test instead (replacing 4Derm with S1+ for istance).
Any comments are welcome

 

[Syr]

I have used 1-test and 4OHT and 1-test and 4AD on separate occasions, and the 1-test/4OHT stack was superior in all the ways that mattered to me:
1) greater strength gains, 2) better body composition gains, 3) better libido (although this wasn't a goal, it was a nice surprise), 4) and zero water retention. Maybe it's me, but I always retain water when I use 4AD in a stack, and since I discovered 4OHT, I have no use for it anymore. FYI - I've used both 1-test, 4AD, and 4OHT orals and transdermals in various combos over the past year or so, and I dig the 1-test transdermal/4OHT oral stack best.

Very interesting esperience, thanks for sharing
I believe that 4OHT is better than 4AD, particuarly for the lack of sides. But sonewhere I read that it should stack very well with it.
I have 2 questions:

1) Have you tried a stack of all 3 compounds? I dont mind a little water as i'm bulking, but strenght is a main goal for me too (cant use 5aa).

2) Also, at which dosage did you run 1Test trans with 4oht?

 

[the Cardinal]

Very interesting esperience, thanks for sharing
I believe that 4OHT is better than 4AD, particuarly for the lack of sides. But sonewhere I read that it should stack very well with it.
I have 2 questions:

1) Have you tried a stack of all 3 compounds? I dont mind a little water as i'm bulking, but strenght is a main goal for me too (cant use 5aa).

2) Also, at which dosage did you run 1Test trans with 4oht?

1) No, I've never used all three at once, but I briefly tried 4OHT and 4AD together after reading others talk about the two (for 3 or 4 days), and I hated the bloating (I actually had hopes the 4OHT would mitigate the water retention, but for me, this seems to be a pipe dream).

2) I used 150 mg/day 1-test trans with 400 mg/day 4OHT oral (I prefer the Molecular Nutrition softgels vs. the VPX liquid because about 2/3's way, the 4OHT powder began coming out of solution. Of course, you can shake it up again, but I tend to prefer the hassle-free way.).

 

[Brodus]

You guys don't actually drink the injectable cypionate 4-HT product by VPX, do you?

 

[ryansm]

Oh I think they do.:trout:

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

the cyp is not meant to be oral is it? would it affect the bioavailability?

I'm interested in the 4oht also. I have a cycle planned down the road.

 

[CDB]

the cyp is not meant to be oral is it? would it affect the bioavailability?

I'm interested in the 4oht also. I have a cycle planned down the road.

The attachment of the ester means it's for injecting, even though the company can't reccomend this route of delivery. Don't know how it would effect oral bioavailability. I've heard reports of bad experiences injecting VPX too, so you might want to consider an oral from another company.

 

[Syr]

You guys don't actually drink the injectable cypionate 4-HT product by VPX, do you?

I hate needles, I would never do a injectable cycle. (i would already done a winny one if that wasnt the case).
Yes, it sounded pretty strange to me that its a cyp but its intended to be taken orally and the liposome delivery could be good. I've heard a couple of positive reports of ppl using it.

 

[Syr]

1) No, I've never used all three at once, but I briefly tried 4OHT and 4AD together after reading others talk about the two (for 3 or 4 days), and I hated the bloating (I actually had hopes the 4OHT would mitigate the water retention, but for me, this seems to be a pipe dream).

Uhm... I wonder if someone else who stacked 4AD with something else experienced big bloat. I dont mind a LITTLE water retention, but not too much. I dont have huge gains and i prefer lean ones (i loved m4ohn for istance which gave me 5 lbs of lean mass).

2) I used 150 mg/day 1-test trans with 400 mg/day 4OHT oral (I prefer the Molecular Nutrition softgels vs. the VPX liquid because about 2/3's way, the 4OHT powder began coming out of solution. Of course, you can shake it up again, but I tend to prefer the hassle-free way.).

I'm not sure to be able to find a molecular nutrition dealer, but shaking a little the vial before taking it is less hassle for me than swallowing more than one pill
Do you think that 150mg of 1Test is enough trans?
I could buy dermabolics big1 and have 3 or 4 squirts instead of 5 which leads to 133 or 166 mg. I never did 1-Test and i believe that my natural levels are pretty high, so i will probably go for 133mg/day.
More comments on dosage would be appreciated

 

[ryansm]

Your natural limits of what are high? 1-test is not testosterone. As far as the cyp. you are wasting your money if not injecting it, if you want an oral get the base 4-ad. I atleast suggest going the transdermal route this way you will save the most money, and get much better gains. Vpx puts out some ok stuff, but they are overpriced, and that whole liposomal crap is just hype if you ask me. JMO.

 

[Syr]

Your natural limits of what are high? 1-test is not testosterone.

Does it convert to?

As far as the cyp. you are wasting your money if not injecting it, if you want an oral get the base 4-ad. I atleast suggest going the transdermal route this way you will save the most money, and get much better gains. Vpx puts out some ok stuff, but they are overpriced, and that whole liposomal crap is just hype if you ask me. JMO.

I disagreee. Oral 4oht was supposed to have very poor bioavailability, but it seems vpx made a decent product and its not too pricey.
Comparing to a transdermal it seems to have about the same effectiveness.
As i said i'm not pinning so, alternatively i could get powder and add to 1 test trans. But its too much a hassle to import raw ph in Europe. As i said in my first post I have to use what is easily available. Hopefully, price is not my main concern, under certain limits.

I would not run 4ad without 4oht. Considering other people experience, now i'm deciding if to add 4ad to 1-test and 4oht.

 

[CDB]

Does it convert to?

1 Testosterone doesn't convert to anything, it's an active hormone, if that's what you're asking. As far as using the easiest and most conveniently available, go with a transdermal on all fronts if possible, unless you use 1,4 Andro instead of 4 AD. The 1,4 has good oral availability and can be used very effectively that way. Also good for offsetting the sides of 1 test, but has the same drawbacks as 4 AD with regard to bloat, etc.

 

[Syr]

1 Testosterone doesn't convert to anything, it's an active hormone, if that's what you're asking.

Sorry I mispelled my question. I would have asked if it raises natural test levels. Anyway i want to not take too much of it for the sides.

As far as using the easiest and most conveniently available, go with a transdermal on all fronts if possible

Yes, those were my thoughts
It seems i have to use 4oht oral, though.

unless you use 1,4 Andro instead of 4 AD. The 1,4 has good oral availability and can be used very effectively that way. Also good for offsetting the sides of 1 test, but has the same drawbacks as 4 AD with regard to bloat, etc.

1,4 andro was higher on my list than 4ad, but I cant find any 1,4 Andro product anywhere in europe (private messages are welcome)

 

[Brodus]

Yeah, the only things to take orally are 1,4AD and 1AD.

EVERYTHING else suffers from poor bioavailability...which is why you dump it in TGel and go transdermal...it's so much more effective and cheap.

SYR, you realize that the cypionate ester has weight, and therefore you're not getting the full 200mg per serving? Let's be generous and say you're getting 160mg/serving. That's 3200 mg. of 4OHT per bottle, at a cost of well over $60.

By contrast, you can get 8 grams of 4OHT powder for less than $50.

And the studies I've read say 4OHT indeed IS very poor in the oral bioavailability department.

 

[ryansm]

Do you really think that the letro is necessary. I'm just asking, but it seems to be overkill. I honestly think people are blowing this whole bloat thing out of proportion. Unless you are competing than the bloat isn't that bad, and goes away during pct, you also have to realize that estrogen can be a huge help in packing on mass.

 

[ryansm]

Sorry I mispelled my question. I would have asked if it raises natural test levels. Anyway i want to not take too much of it for the sides.

No it will not raise natty test levels, it will lower them quite a bit.

 

[ryansm]

Well then sounds good bro.

 

[Syr]

SYR, you realize that the cypionate ester has weight, and therefore you're not getting the full 200mg per serving? Let's be generous and say you're getting 160mg/serving. That's 3200 mg. of 4OHT per bottle, at a cost of well over $60.

By contrast, you can get 8 grams of 4OHT powder for less than $50.

And the studies I've read say 4OHT indeed IS very poor in the oral bioavailability department.

Yes and do you realize that importing anything that can be looked as medical by Italian Customs causes me the following:
-delay of 2 weeks
-fax a prescription from my doctor
-additional cost of around 40€ for inexistent "sanitary check"
-added 20% vat and 4% customs fee

Sum this to the shipping costs that are about the double and to uncertan delivery time from 1 to 3 weeks.

 

[Brodus]

Ah...now I understand! Didn't realize access was the real issue here.

 

[CDB]

Yes and do you realize that importing anything that can be looked as medical by Italian Customs causes me the following:
-delay of 2 weeks
-fax a prescription from my doctor
-additional cost of around 40€ for inexistent "sanitary check"
-added 20% vat and 4% customs fee

Sum this to the shipping costs that are about the double and to uncertan delivery time from 1 to 3 weeks.

That does suck, but there is the swap meet, if you've got something to trade you might get a hit there. Also, try powernutrition.net. They ain't a sponsor, but they've got that Build Your Own Transdermal thing which I was looking for and found only recently thanks to someone on these boards. Might work for you too, you never know what gets past customs without them seeing.

As for the letro, I would run it with 4 AD even if I was bulking. I'm so damn sensitive to gyno in the cycles I've run so far I've tried to never run anything that aromatizes besides 4 AD, and always run that with an AI. When I don't my nipples start itching within a day or two.

 

[jah_live10]

It would be counterproductive if mass is the main goal, and I agree that water drops rapidly during PCT for most, but I'm not a bodybuilder, I'm a older Linebacker/Boxer who wants minimal additional muscle, my goal is speed and strength maintence and improvement, tuning and toning is my agenda, not getting bigger.

if "tuning and toning" is your agenda....why are you taking ph/ps?
you can "tune and tone" as a natural.

and how are you an "older" Linebacker?
do you still play football? or are you a weekend flag football warrior?
or still living through your division3 days?

maintence...is not a word in my vocabulary. especially when it comes to training.
I strive for more... strength and muscle. AND I accomplish this as a natural.

If you are having trouble putting on mass...with even small amounts of ph/ps...then you need to re-evaluate your training and nutrition. As well as your goals.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

lol

 

[Syr]

As for the letro, I would run it with 4 AD even if I was bulking. I'm so damn sensitive to gyno in the cycles I've run so far I've tried to never run anything that aromatizes besides 4 AD, and always run that with an AI. When I don't my nipples start itching within a day or two.

What does letrozole do? Prevent water retention or is an anti-estrogen avoiding gyno?
I have no idea if i am prone to gyno cause the only other cycle i did before is a m4ohn only one (ended yesterday), but i want to be covered at first. Better safe than sorry

BTW recently the chance for packages to be picked raised badly, i'm not going to risk to import anything that is marked like "supplements"

 

[Syr]

OK, considering the replies received and after doing other research, I think i will go for a
1 Test + 4 AD + 4OHT.

My actual options, considering availability are these 2:

1) S1+ (5 squirts 2/day) + VPX 4-HT (2/ day):
200mg 1-T
300mg 4AD
400mg 4OHT

2) LGP 1-T Hydroxytest (3g 1-T, 3g OHT, 6g 4AD in all the bottle, 4 squirts /2 day):
200mg 1-T
400mg 4AD
200mg OHT

Which of the two would you pick (not considering the price, only the dosage of the compounds)?
Also, is the OHT in Legal Gear product the same 4-OHT?
Besides this i think that 200mg of (4)OHT are a bit few, so I may add the vpx oral anyway to raise it to 400mg. This is the only thing i'm sure about the dose i want to run at.

[Edit found the label of LGP trans with amount per squirt]

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

OK, considering the replies received and after doing other research, I think i will go for a
1 Test + 4 AD + 4OHT.

My actual options, considering availability are these 2:

1) S1+ (5 squirts 2/day) + VPX 4-HT (2/ day):
200mg 1-T
300mg 4AD
400mg 4OHT

2) LGP 1-T Hydroxytest (3g 1-T, 3g OHT, 6g 4AD in all the bottle, 4 squirts /2 day):
200mg 1-T
400mg 4AD
200mg OHT

Which of the two would you pick (not considering the price, only the dosage of the compounds)?
Also, is the OHT in Legal Gear product the same 4-OHT?
Besides this i think that 200mg of (4)OHT are a bit few, so I may add the vpx oral anyway to raise it to 400mg. This is the only thing i'm sure about the dose i want to run at.

[Edit found the label of LGP trans with amount per squirt]

I like option 1.

 

[Syr]

I like option 1.

Yeah, me too, but asking doesnt harm
I think LG trans has too much 4ad. The proportions in S1+ are better.

But MAYBE I could buy 1test and 4ad separately in two transdermals (still dermabolics ones) and invert the ratio.
Something like:

Option 3:
300mg 1-Test
200mg 4-AD
Keeping the 400mg oral 4-OHT, of course.

How does this sounds? Better or worse?

 

[Syr]

*bump*

Sorry, but i'd like to know your opinion on the dosage of
1-Test and 4-AD (in transdermal) stacked with 4-OHT oral (400mg).

I havent decided between
200mg 1-Test + 300mg 4-AD

or the opposite:
300mg 1-Test + 200mg 4-AD

 

[darius]

Just run them all transdermally. You will save alot of money considering 4OHT is expensive as @%&$.

 

[Syr]

I was just asking for comments about the ratio between 1-Test and 4-AD both transdermals....

 

[darius]

Most people do it either way. If you want an edge on wet gains use more 4AD, if you want dryer gains, do 1-Test. People run it 2:1, 1:1, and 1:2. It's up to you what your goals are.

 

[Syr]

Heya,

I'm resurrecting this thread cause i'm going to start this cycle in 2-3 weeks and i ordered the stuff. I'm going transdermal only with LGP 1-T Hydroxytest + Big One to raise the 1T ratio:

LGP 1-T Hydroxytest: 4 squirts /2 day
Big One: 5 sprays /1 day

So, I would take these doses daily:
400mg 1-T
400mg 4AD
200mg 4OHT

I will run the cycle for 6 weeks, followed by 40 days PCT.
How does it sound?

 

[milwood]

my next cycle (happily to kick off in a week or 2) includes (but is not limited to): (t/d) 4AD, 1T, 4OHT. I have toyed with ratios too, and am leaning towards 400mg, 200mg, 200mg/day, respectively. It has been suggested to go higher with the 4AD, but I'm hoping the OHT will assist in countering sides (from 1T and M1T for 2 of the weeks). I want to limit bloating, which although innoculous, bugs the **** out of me (when I feel like the Stay-Puft Marshmallow man on cycle.) I will run letro or a very androgenic substance (M-DHT, M5 or 3-Alpha) as well if necessarry to offset.

 

[NPursuit]

Heya,

I'm resurrecting this thread cause i'm going to start this cycle in 2-3 weeks and i ordered the stuff. I'm going transdermal only with LGP 1-T Hydroxytest + Big One to raise the 1T ratio:

LGP 1-T Hydroxytest: 4 squirts /2 day
Big One: 5 sprays /1 day

So, I would take these doses daily:
400mg 1-T
400mg 4AD
200mg 4OHT

I will run the cycle for 6 weeks, followed by 40 days PCT.
How does it sound?

Sounds like a lot of 1-test. Keep that ECA handy.

 

[Syr]

my next cycle (happily to kick off in a week or 2) includes (but is not limited to): (t/d) 4AD, 1T, 4OHT. I have toyed with ratios too, and am leaning towards 400mg, 200mg, 200mg/day, respectively. It has been suggested to go higher with the 4AD, but I'm hoping the OHT will assist in countering sides.

Yes it should and should keep aside the risk of gyno.

I will probably go for a lower dose, but i have to figure with the squirts (5 for the additional 1 test is not easy to cut in half )

 

[Syr]

Doing a similar stack right now. 6 days into a 1-T, 4AD, 4OH stack that I'll be running for 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off, 4 weeks on.

Why 4 on and 4 off?
Whats the benefit rather than a single 6 weeks cycle?

I'm running it at:

200mg 1-Test
200mg 4AD
100mg 4OH

All trans?

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

syr cycle looks good. let us know how it goes.

 

[Syr]

I have enough product to what ever cycle length I choose, do you think I'd be better off going 6-weeks? Do you feel that I'd see better gains from 1 6-weeker than 2 4-weekers?

I dont know, thats why I asked
Anyway, PCT with nolva?

 

[pestis]

Does it convert to?


I disagreee. Oral 4oht was supposed to have very poor bioavailability, but it seems vpx made a decent product and its not too pricey.
YOU ARE BEING MISLED HERE. THE VPX PRODUCTS ARE MADE TO BE PINNED AND THEY DONT PUT ENOUGH IN EACH TO BE WORTH THE MONEY TO DO SO. ORAL WOULD ONLY BE WORSE.
Comparing to a transdermal it seems to have about the same effectiveness.
As i said i'm not pinning so, alternatively i could get powder and add to 1 test trans. But its too much a hassle to import raw ph in Europe. As i said in my first post I have to use what is easily available. Hopefully, price is not my main concern, under certain limits.

I would not run 4ad without 4oht. Considering other people experience, now i'm deciding if to add 4ad to 1-test and 4oht.

4AD, 1-TEST, 4OHT = GOOD CYCLE. GO WITH TRANS ON ALL 3 AND RESEARCH LETROZOLE FOR BLOAT.

 

[Syr]

4AD, 1-TEST, 4OHT = GOOD CYCLE. GO WITH TRANS ON ALL 3 AND RESEARCH LETROZOLE FOR BLOAT.

Yes, i'm going all trans , but at a not too high dose of 4ad i think i dont need letro (i cant get it btw). 4oht should help enough countering bloating.

 

[Syr]

OK, now i have one last question: which is the time to kick in of all 3 compounds?

 

[schlam_of]

id run the higher 1-test version personally..i used lg before and pretty much liked it, but i did bloat up pretty bad starting about week three..personally, i really loved my 1-test/m4-ohn cycle..

 

[Syr]

id run the higher 1-test version personally..i used lg before and pretty much liked it, but i did bloat up pretty bad starting about week three..personally, i really loved my 1-test/m4-ohn cycle..

Yes, thats why i got Big1: to raise the ratio of 1test. It'll be a 2:2:1 1test:4ad:4oht, maybe a little more 1test (cant halve the 5 squirts perfectly so i will do 3)

BTW, i Think that m4ohn can be stacked with almost anything but other methyls to bulk

I will do another m4ohn cycle, stacking with 1,4andro-diol. It'll be pretty expensive, but i'm pretty confident on the capabilities of BB store to ship to europe.

 

[Syr]

I agree, I'm 10 days in and I have little to no bloat.

I think its also due to the low dose of 4AD you are using.
Any gains so far?

Please keep me updated on how your cycle goes, cause i will start mine probably later than i planned.
I think to run a m4ohn + 1,4add cycle in december and delay this to the spring...

 

[OmarJackson]

bump.

yea, i would also like to see updates from both GTOman and Syr. good thread, keep it up.

BTW, does anyone know if 200mg of trans 4-ad is enough to just to offset sides of from 600-900mg 1-ad.

 

[Syr]

bump.

yea, i would also like to see updates from both GTOman and Syr. good thread, keep it up.

You find my updates here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22178

BTW, does anyone know if 200mg of trans 4-ad is enough to just to offset sides of from 600-900mg 1-ad.

I read that the ratio 4AD to 1-Test to offset letargy is just 1:4. I dont know well 1AD, but you should be fine with just 100mg.

 

[Syr]

I'm in week 4 PCT. Gained a total of 8 lbs. and I've lost about one pound since the end of the cycle for a total of 7 lbs.

Over all very happy with the results, waist is up about 1/2 - 3/4 inches and skinfold is the same, so it seems the gains were pretty lean. Strength continued to increase through the cycle and PCT and is still slowly increasing.

Most of the gains came in the first two weeks. I'm thinking of switching it up next time to 2on/2off two or three times in a row with a longer off period after the last cycle.

It was a 4AD/4OHT cycle? Without 1Test right?
Which were your doses?

For me, gains came around day 10. I think by body acts slow to PS but I do respond well.
I'm going for 6 weeks if the gains dont stop, then I will be switching to Superdrol.

 

[THEBRAKES]

You find my updates here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22178


I read that the ratio 4AD to 1-Test to offset letargy is just 1:4. I dont know well 1AD, but you should be fine with just 100mg.

100mg of 4-ad against 600-900mg 1-ad is like arnold from different strokes against gunther schlierkampf - a little one-sided. i used 200mg 4-ad transdermally with 600mg of 1-ad and it beat me like ike beat tina. i tried 3x/day application and it still didnt abate sides adequately. i went 900mg androdiol and within 2 days i felt like a million bucks. that's just my experience, though.

syr- looks like a good cycle.

can anyone explain to me what the advantage is with using 4OHT on a 1-T cycle instead of, say, 4-ad with dex or letro? seems like even with the ancillary (which you dont need much of to keep bloat off) the price is lower, especially in the long run.

 

[Syr]

can anyone explain to me what the advantage is with using 4OHT on a 1-T cycle instead of, say, 4-ad with dex or letro? seems like even with the ancillary (which you dont need much of to keep bloat off) the price is lower, especially in the long run.

Not sure of your question. The purpose of adding 4OHT to 4AD is counter estro while adding the anabolic qualities of OHT, which adex or letro obviously lack.

The purpose of adding 4OHT to 1-Test only is unknown to me. In the earlier posts on this thread I remember someone did that cycle and liked it. I GUESS that 4oht counters some of the sides of 1-Test, probably not as much as 4AD.

Looking at my and BV cycle logs, a dose of 4OHT eqeual to half 4AD is NOT ENOUGH to keep the bloating away. I dont feel too much bloated, but BV for istance did and got a significative BP raise. If thats your case, run a c12 supp on cycle.