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    cycle length....


    I wanted to post the imoportant points i see in this thread, because I feel it is very benificial for those who have been misguided by all the bro science.
    If you want to learn a little about how steroids work, and have a better understanding of them, I suggest you read the whole convo.....
    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Pat,

    It seems most people recommend running test cycles for the standard 12 weeks + as opposed to 8-10 weeks...what benefits does running 12+ weeks provide compared to say 8-10? I think I saw somewhere that you said gains level off after about 8 weeks. Does 12+ weeks help solidify the gains?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I dont think its gonna do anything more at that point then delay the crash
    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think it would be more likely to solidify the HTPA shutdown as opposed to the gains
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Is keeping cycle length less merely to aide in HPTA recovery or is there another reason? Also, why do gains seem to stall after so many weeks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is that exogenous hormones can have negative side effects other than HPTA suppression
    the answer to your second question is because you can only grow up until the point where some limiting factor is going to put a halt to it. There could be many limiting factors. Obviously we cant take steroids and gain 8 pounds every two weeks indefinitely. And this is does not necessarily have to do with insensitivity to androgens. If that were going on then one would expect to lose weight after a while instead of maintaining their gains during the rest of the cycle
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Would hepatoxicity be one of these factors in the case of PHs (just making sure I understand you)?


    Is this why blasting and cruising works? You're letting other factors recover while cruising and then eventually blasting to make another gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is yes
    the answer to your other question is no. apparently you failed to fully understand what i said
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    LOL! Poignant yet not entirely helpful!!! Sometimes your answers are about as good as a round of slap and tickle (no homo)!

    I understood this.

    I believe this is where my reply was short sighted. What types of limiting factors are we talking about here? Metabolic, genetic? Or am I totally off the ball on this one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    metabolic, which ultimately is a consequence of your genes of course. these limits are built into your physiology so no amount of blasting or cruising is gonna matter. the only thing you could do is try to address them via some sort of pharmacological intervention i suppose, but you would have to know what you are addressing to begin with
    myostatin inhibitors are interesting because they seem to disable the brakes on a whole slew of physiological processes involved in the limitation of muscle growth, some of which may be responsible for the plateau of growth seen after several weeks of AAS use
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    a better way to look at this is to realize that your muscles are a dynamic tissue - with its amino acids always being broken down for energy as well as always being built up via anabolic processes. how large they get is a function of where this balance lies. diet, training, and drugs can all affect this set point.
    So adding anabolic steroids will simply reset your muscles to a different balance of anabolic and catabolic processes, leading to a new baseline of muscle mass.
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    That makes sense. So, even though you're resetting the baseline, has there been any research showing that the baseline has a genetic ceiling? I ask because there is always the debate as to whether a bodybuilder is so big because he's taking XYZ drugs. While that may be true to an extent and using the baseline context, is it fair to say that the bodybuilder is able to obtain a higher baseline because he is genetically able to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    everything regarding your physiological potential is determined by your genes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSin View Post
    Why would you stop after 8-10 weeks of cycling if bloodwork is normal and are on TRT? TRT means significantly lesser fertility and you aren't really concerned with HPTA recovery...
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as opposed to what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    As opposed to longer 12+ week cycles? This way you can cycle more times per year and hopefully put on more muscle. If gains slow/stop after approximately 8-10 weeks and continuing with the cycle doesn't help keep the gains...then why not stop, give your receptors and body a break, and then cycle again? If this is the best approach, why does it seem everyone advocates for longer cycles, like the standard 12+ weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Why continue with a cycle past 8-10 weeks if the gains have stopped? What benefit is there to continue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if you want to put on the most muscle (and dont care about the downsides) then stay on cycle year around. thats what most of the pros do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the benefit is that you will stay at that level. and by manipulating other aspects of your program with diet, training, or different kinds of drugs you can still coax yourself to slowly keep gaining even
    by stopping you will lose a good part of your gains and then when you cycle again you pretty much will just end up at the same sticking point. You will have lost a few months where you could have gained a little more
    thats why the pros dont go off.
    with that said, its a very unhealthy thing to do
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Ok, I think I need to seriously rethink what I'm expecting to obtain with diet, lifting, and AAS/PH use. I would like to obtain the look of a natural professional bodybuilder like Ulisses Jr. (5'10" 185lbs. contest & 205lbs offseason) and a Brandon Curry back when he completed in the 2004 MuscleMania (natural contest) as a middleweight. Granted both these guys have probably been lifting since high school, 6+ years lifting to obtain that look, and of course have great gentics, but do you think with the use of AAS a person could obtain that size and look of a natural bodybuilder in half the time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    anything is possible. we are all created different with different potentials
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    I'm sorry for bumping this thread.
    However, does this all mean that longer cycles do not equal easier maintainable gains? For years I've read how a longer cycle is more beneficial because it equals easier maintainable gains, but after reading this, it would seem to not be true. Is that the case?
    And if it is, then why do people do longer cycles? Just to look bigger for a longer period of time with no actual benefit (i.e. maintaining gains easier). Or because most people are deluded into thinking the way I thought for the longest time?
    You know, because you often see people 'bridging' compounds to 'solidify' gains from another compound. And it 'made' sense initially. But that isn't the case also, right?
    Cheers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I really dont have the answer to whether longer cycles result in more maintainable gains. maybe longer cycles with moderate doses is better than shorter ones with high doses in the long run, maybe it makes no difference
    people do longer cycles probably because they enjoy being on drugs. its as simple as that. they come up with all sorts of rationalization but i think it comes down to the fact that they enjoy training while on
    Quote Originally Posted by bryan101b View Post
    yes, yes we do.
    but there appears to be research stating gains from oral steroids, seem to cease (or significantly slow down) after 6-8 weeks of usage. and the time after that is just increasing the amount of potential side effects. so pa isn't just making stuff up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    at that point continuing the steroids will maintain gains for the most part. Unless the dose is increased substantially, which can result in renewed gains
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    Wow. Kind of mind blowing if all of this is true. Kind of makes anything over 8 weeks (oral/injectable) seem pointless if longer cycles don't result in muscle being easier to keep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    this has to be put into context. the steroids themselves will have "ceilinged off" on their impact (growthwise that is - they will still act strongly to preserve muscle gains).
    However you can continue your cycle and alter other variables (diet, training, other drugs) and continue to make progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    if you're just looking to look bigger than joe schmoe then yes it is kind of pointless in my opinion. however, if you are trying to turn pro then you really need to stay on longterm/indefinitely, and then see a psych because trying to go pro in BB is about one of the dumbest things I could imagine! lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    when u compare the sacrifice you make to your life and to your health compared to the financial rewards i completely agree. some people feel that the reward of a title is meaningful to them regardless. everyone is free to pursue whatever goals they wish

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    Stop rapping all the information I have learned so far on injectables.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    well, there are those who just dont realize things about aas.

    they look at guys with the right genetics who are freakishly huge, who are on 12,15,20, 52 week cycles, and think, shiit, that is where it's at, anything else, is pointless.

    which in reality, is far from the truth. there is actual scientific data based facts surounding the use of supraphysiological dosages of androgens, but most people are just too lazy to look for it, and read it.

    it's easier to just do what everyone else is doing. i mean, if everyone is doing it, it has to be right?
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    I've known about this all along that's why I'll only use short esters and keep to an 8 week cycle. I can't see myself staying on all year round though, it seems reckless.
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    yea, it's sad people dont realize what supraphysiological dosages of hormones do to your insides.

    liver hepatotoxicity from alkylated compounds is just one of the things you need to worry about.

    unless you are planning on going pro, in which case, you probably need a therapist, otherwise, it's best to get in, get your gains, and get out, then get healthy.
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    I'm gonna need a therapist
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    lol, yup. we all do.
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    bump, i want to keep this bumped.
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    Good info, thanks for the knowledge agin.
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    Read it all the way through. Thanks for the information!
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    I enjoyed reading this, learned a few new things. It seems like informative points we all would already know but just need to hear it from someone else.
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    and here I thought I was finally understanding a bunch of information...curveball
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    it's best to get in, get your gains, and get out, then get healthy.
    This little post right here is so true ^ I learn some great info thanks. Bump to share.
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    Do the longer ester tests need to be stopped even sooner then, as they take a while to leave your system than prop?
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    nope.
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    Great thread, thanks for posting.

    And bump.
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    I know his genetics are good, and he got a really early start before any AAS use, but I've heard Arnold was usually only on for a couple months at a time. Correct me if you have sources stating otherwise, this is just hearsay.
    "Lifting and Game of Thrones share the same calendar, there's only two seasons: cutting and bulking. And guess what? Winter's comin' so it's time to bulk up!"
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    Good read. Sticky?

    Another hearsay: Arnold was juicing since he was like 15. Not sure if he's right person to model your AAS use on ;-)
    Check out my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/195262-iforce-tropinol-testabolan.html
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    Lol arnold's pct was dbol.
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    bump.
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    how on earth DID the old schools look so good for so long? sooooo much emphasis on perfect PCT nowdays, before all that what did they do? Arnie looked sick till late 90's for gods sake! And he got his maid preggas at 50 odd years old, so there goes that fertility theory a bit. Really wonder how they did it. Did they really stay pretty much on their whole life? for a couple of decades?!
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    lol.

    And a bump.

    I did a 22 week cycle last year. Never again. After maybe 14 weeks of mostly test and tren. 10-11 weeks tren at 700mg/wk; 20 weeks of test e at 500mg/wk; 8 weeks of Proviron 100mg/day and 7 weeks of Anavar at 40mg/day at the end (weeks 14-20 or 22). My libido went to **** for about 3-4 months, 90%+ of my gains were made in the first 10 weeks and they stayed stable for the rest of the cycle which was basically test e 500mg/wk and 100mg/wk of prop (and the two orals). So I spent a **** load of money for no real reason. Had to SERM it up for 8 freaking weeks to get the boys back and that was after using hCG for the better part of 20 weeks on cycle. I felt terrible for a month or so post-cycle. The only thing that added anything was the var gave a little extra recomp to finish up with. I could have had 90% of the results in half the time for 1/2 the cost (+/-) and with far fewer sides. Maybe it was the tren, or my test dose was too high, but estrogen became completely unmanageable after week 14 or so, even on 3.75mg/day of HG Letrozole (or 50mg/day of Aromasin). 120mg/day of Ralox and .5mg/wk of Caber kept gyno away but I was a bloated, impotent SOB for more months than I care to recall. I used to prefer longer cycles, but now I think 8-12 weeks is the way to go unless 52 weeks or 104 weeks is your cup of tea. I do know some of those gents and they are indeed large, but I wonder about their organs (running Deca for 2 years straight for example...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbhick3 View Post
    lol.

    And a bump.

    I did a 22 week cycle last year. Never again. After maybe 14 weeks of mostly test and tren. 10-11 weeks tren at 700mg/wk; 20 weeks of test e at 500mg/wk; 8 weeks of Proviron 100mg/day and 7 weeks of Anavar at 40mg/day at the end (weeks 14-20 or 22). My libido went to **** for about 3-4 months, 90%+ of my gains were made in the first 10 weeks and they stayed stable for the rest of the cycle which was basically test e 500mg/wk and 100mg/wk of prop (and the two orals). So I spent a **** load of money for no real reason. Had to SERM it up for 8 freaking weeks to get the boys back and that was after using hCG for the better part of 20 weeks on cycle. I felt terrible for a month or so post-cycle. The only thing that added anything was the var gave a little extra recomp to finish up with. I could have had 90% of the results in half the time for 1/2 the cost (+/-) and with far fewer sides. Maybe it was the tren, or my test dose was too high, but estrogen became completely unmanageable after week 14 or so, even on 3.75mg/day of HG Letrozole (or 50mg/day of Aromasin). 120mg/day of Ralox and .5mg/wk of Caber kept gyno away but I was a bloated, impotent SOB for more months than I care to recall. I used to prefer longer cycles, but now I think 8-12 weeks is the way to go unless 52 weeks or 104 weeks is your cup of tea. I do know some of those gents and they are indeed large, but I wonder about their organs (running Deca for 2 years straight for example...)
    6-12 weeks the best run time. Haa you can do a 52+ weeker or yearly run that;s if you want to go PRO status lol
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    I'm on a six week hdrol/furaza cycle,, if labs look ok I was going to shift to another six of tren(not ph) ...
    Taking 400mg test a week throughout all 12 weeks.... I can't fathom stretching it out any farther than that .... great read btw... thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProteinMurder
    how on earth DID the old schools look so good for so long? sooooo much emphasis on perfect PCT nowdays, before all that what did they do? Arnie looked sick till late 90's for gods sake! And he got his maid preggas at 50 odd years old, so there goes that fertility theory a bit. Really wonder how they did it. Did they really stay pretty much on their whole life? for a couple of decades?!
    The same as any other person, they stay on, and don't use the same massive amounts of hormones used today.

    How do aids patients gain 10lbs of lean muscle tissue with 100mg of test e & 20mg of var for 8 weeks?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    yea, it's sad people dont realize what supraphysiological dosages of hormones do to your insides.
    please elaborate
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Certainly, when I get home. Or if you want to best me to it, you can look it up, I know you read studies and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Certainly, when I get home. Or if you want to best me to it, you can look it up, I know you read studies and such.
    From my experience, these negative effects are often exaggerated. Although you are a smart guy so was curious as to what negatives you were speaking of. Perhaps I overlooked something..
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Great info Jbry
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManBeast View Post
    Great info Jbry
    YOUR BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! WOOT! <3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManBeast View Post
    Great info Jbry
    Great post
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh

    From my experience, these negative effects are often exaggerated. Although you are a smart guy so was curious as to what negatives you were speaking of. Perhaps I overlooked something..
    Guess I should also specify it more so pertains to usage over time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    The same as any other person, they stay on, and don't use the same massive amounts of hormones used today.

    How do aids patients gain 10lbs of lean muscle tissue with 100mg of test e & 20mg of var for 8 weeks?
    I can't think of a steroid with which I have experience that is as anti-catabolic as anavar at just 20-40mg/day, trenbolone megadoses included. I've even tried tren and test and then test and var separately and my experience agrees with the GR binding affinity numbers (var having about 6x the affinity of trenbolone at the GR). Stopping the catabolic spiral of the AIDS wasting syndrome and correcting underweight study participant weight goes a long way in making those absurd gains on such low doses. For 90% of the normal population, they are not likely to see much from the above cycle save a few lbs.

    I do know the study to which you refer to, and I sense the question was rhetorical, so I have to ask myself...does a bear **** in the woods?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbhick3

    I can't think of a steroid with which I have experience that is as anti-catabolic as anavar at just 20-40mg/day, trenbolone megadoses included. I've even tried tren and test and then test and var separately and my experience agrees with the GR binding affinity numbers (var having about 6x the affinity of trenbolone at the GR). Stopping the catabolic spiral of the AIDS wasting syndrome and correcting underweight study participant weight goes a long way in making those absurd gains on such low doses. For 90% of the normal population, they are not likely to see much from the above cycle save a few lbs.

    I do know the study to which you refer to, and I sense the question was rhetorical, so I have to ask myself...does a bear **** in the woods?
    What do you mean by GR? And GR binding affinity numbers? What you said sounds intriguing but I'm a little lost.
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    Awesome post!! No long esters for mee!
    Edit: well for my first cycle. Im sure ill experiment more down the road
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro

    What do you mean by GR? And GR binding affinity numbers? What you said sounds intriguing but I'm a little lost.
    He could be talking about glutocorticoid receptors, but not 100% sure
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    Long esters can be used , you just have to plan accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    He could be talking about fluty *glutocorticoid receptors*, but not 100% sure
    ^^This is what I meant by GR.
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    minus the fluty part, damn phone.
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