cycle length....

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    pulled this off a wada paper, so take it for what its worth...


    Studying the side effects and health risks of anabolic steroid use is diffi-

    cult. Because the drugs are illegal & there is paucity of well-controlled studies available for review.

    Nevertheless, a number of studies have investigated the health consequences associated with these drugs and have provided strong evidence of their risks, including hepatic cellular damage, testicular atrophy, cardiovascular disease, and psychological disturbance, musculo-

    Skeletal effects and even increased mortality.

    (1) Cardiovascular effects:

    (a) Elevated blood pressure, decreased high-density lipoprotein,

    Erythrocytosis, Myocardial hypertrophy, Arrhythmia, Thrombosis.



    (b) Association between Endothelial dysfunction with an atherogenic blood lipid profile, and may pose an increased risk of atherosclerosis.



    (Ebenbichler CF et al, 2001)

    (c) Decrease (25% - 27%) in HDL cholesterol & increase in diastolic

    blood pressure after 8 weeks of anabolic steroid use.
    (Kuipers,1991)



    (d) Associated with hypertension, myocardial ischemia, and sudden cardiac death.


    ( Fieschi V et al. 2001)(Sillivan ML et al.1998)(Parssinen M et al. 2002)

    ( Wight JN et al. 1995) (Meichert RB et al: 1995)


    (2) Hepatic effects (functional / structural)

    (a) Hepatotoxicity (elevated liver function tests) / jaundice

    (b) Neoplasm



    (3) Reproductive- Endocrine effects

    (a) Libido changes, Subfertility, Decreased Luteinizing hormone and

    follicle-stimulating hormone.

    (b) Increased aggressiveness and sexual appetite, sometimes resulting

    in aberrant sexual and criminal behavior.

    (c) In Males Only : Impotence with chronic or repeated use, testicular shrinkage(atrophy), breast enlargement (gynecomastia), prostatic enlargement, reduction of sperm production, premature baldness.

    (d) In Female Only : Masculinization/Hirsutism, excessive hair growth on the face & body, deepening of the voice, enlargement of clitoris, abnormal menstrual cycles (suppression of ovarian function and menstruation), reduced breast size. Polycystic ovarian syndrome.

    (e) Childrn: Premature epiphyseal closure of the growth center of long bones (in adolescents) which may result stunted growth.

    Premature puberty among female child.

    (4) Psychological effects / Behavioral effects

    (a) Mood swings, Aggression, Mania, Depression, Withdrawal, Dependence.

    (b) Direct cause of significant disturbances in personality profiles.

    (Cooper CJ et al, 1996)

    (c) Significantly less in control of their aggression than did controls.

    (Midgley et al, 2001)

    (5) Dermatologic effects

    (a) Acne, Striae, Alopecia

    (b) Gynecomastia

    (c) Hursutism (male pilosis)(Too many body-hari as male)

    (d) Collagen reducing skin elasticity

    (6) Musculo-skeletal system effects:

    (a) Muscle tightness and cramp.

    (b) Stiff tender, resulting in an increased potential for muscle strains or

    rupture.

    (7) Mortality rates:

    (a) The most severe consequences of long-term AAS use many be on the

    cardiovascular system.
    (Parssinen M, 2002)

    (b) Mortality rates among elite power lifters during the years of follow

    up was 12.9% in the body-builders compared with 3.1 % in the con-

    troll population. The causes of death among the power lifters include suicide, acute myocardial infarction, hepatic coma, non-Hodgkin
    s lymphoma. ( Parssinen M et al, 2000)


    (c) Investigation on cause of death of steroid abusers among the demise of 34 known users of anabolic steroid, investigator found: 9; victim of

    homicide, 11; committed suicide, 12; judged accidental, 2; not determ-

    mined. And concluded that anabolic steroid use was associated with increased risk of violent death from impulsive, aggressive behavior or depressive symptoms. Chronic cardiac changes were observed in 12 cases (35%)


    (8) Injection associated with needle sharing:
    (Rich JD et al,1999)

    (a) Bruising, Infection, Fibrosis, Neuro-vascular injury.



    (b) Risk of acquirig AIDS, hepatitis(B,C), and other blood-borne diseases,

    abscesses increase greatly with the use of injectable forms.

    (c) 25% rate of needle sharing among adolescent anabolic steroid users.

    dont know how they they got that percentage, if via survery (LOL imagine that) im sure it would be higher, really, how many young peeps are gonna be like, yea, me an tommy inject each other in the glutes 3 times per week, we save money by using the same needle.

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    What was the point of this post??Is it that Steroids if abused can be bad for you??

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    na, judo josh asked me back on the 2nd page about other side effects of aas. long term.

    it's a day late and dollar short, but still wanted to post it.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    na, judo josh asked me back on the 2nd page about other side effects of aas. long term.

    it's a day late and dollar short, but still wanted to post it.
    Gotcha....Hope he appreciates your effort.

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    Good info jbry, thanks man.
    "Lifting and Game of Thrones share the same calendar, there's only two seasons: cutting and bulking. And guess what? Winter's comin' so it's time to bulk up!"
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    Interesting discussion. I proposed a solution to the problem where gains diminish around 8 weeks. You guys might find the myostatin stuff interesting. http://www.advancedmusclesciencelab....-on-cycle.html
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    I would of thought if ursolic acid would of aided in this, pa would of mentioned it, as this convo happened after ursobolic was released.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    I would of thought if ursolic acid would of aided in this, pa would of mentioned it, as this convo happened after ursobolic was released.
    PA wasn't aware of this potential effect. We sell a ursolic acid product, but we only made it because we were looking for natural options to inhibit myostatin (that's actually how we got to ursolic acid).
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    Bump for the newbs
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    Good read. Everyone should read this.
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    It would be very interesting to list bodybuilders from the past that actually had health problems or worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco
    It would be very interesting to list bodybuilders from the past that actually had health problems or worse.
    Without proper procedures in place, any reported long term health affects would be anecdotal.

    But Supraphysiological dosages of androgens aren't good for you in the short run, and they def aren't any better by using more for longer.
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    Yes it makes perfectly sense. But still there will be people saying 'Arnold is perfectly healthy; has ten sons and was making breakfast with Dbol and Primo for years!' or 'Sylvester Stallone is in great shape and is on a never ending cycle of GH'... and so on..
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    How would someone go about using long esters like test e and deca in a shorter cycle? Would it be viable in 6wks or 8wks of pinning with an additional 2-3wks to let it clear out? I know short esters would be preferred, but if these are on hand how would you work this out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas
    How would someone go about using long esters like test e and deca in a shorter cycle? Would it be viable in 6wks or 8wks of pinning with an additional 2-3wks to let it clear out? I know short esters would be preferred, but if these are on hand how would you work this out?
    In addition to this how do you guys feel about front loading long esters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco
    Yes it makes perfectly sense. But still there will be people saying 'Arnold is perfectly healthy; has ten sons and was making breakfast with Dbol and Primo for years!' or 'Sylvester Stallone is in great shape and is on a never ending cycle of GH'... and so on..
    And I would say, it was these guys career, how they look was how they make their money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas
    How would someone go about using long esters like test e and deca in a shorter cycle? Would it be viable in 6wks or 8wks of pinning with an additional 2-3wks to let it clear out? I know short esters would be preferred, but if these are on hand how would you work this out?
    Studies with test e show enhancement on performance are able to be seen in 3 weeks of test e usage ( which anecdotally we know already)
    So running a 10 week cycle could in theory be equivalent to a 6-8 week cycle.
    Different esters and compounds are going to be different.
    But there is enough data on test and its Esters
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Studies with test e show enhancement on performance are able to be seen in 3 weeks of test e usage ( which anecdotally we know already)
    So running a 10 week cycle could in theory be equivalent to a 6-8 week cycle.
    Different esters and compounds are going to be different.
    But there is enough data on test and its Esters
    So based upon that information do you think front loading is a viable option to "get in and get out" as people say? Supposedly it brings you to the levels you are experiencing at weeks 3-4 in week 1 thus enabling you to cut the cycle short at the end. Making a 10wk cycle into a 6-8wk cycle etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    well, there are those who just dont realize things about aas.

    the look at guys with the right genetics who are freakishly huge, who are on 12,15,20, 52 week cycles, and think, shiit, that is where it's at, anything else, is pointless.

    which in reality, is far from the truth. there is actual scientific data based facts surounding the use of supraphysiological dosages of androgens, but most people are just too lazy to look for it, and read it.

    it's easier to just do what everyone else is doing. i mean, if everyone is doing it, it has to be right?
    You make a very interesting point, we all want to be big or we would not be on this site, but at what point are each of us willing to take it too is the real issue. For myself, I want to be as big as possible without risking my overall health. I try to listen to my body when i'm on, if things arn't feeling right, then chances are they are NOT. I have always kept cycles to no more than 8 weeks, with at least 16 weeks of recovery. 3 month ago I started TRT, so know I need to rethink this whole thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    So based upon that information do you think front loading is a viable option to "get in and get out" as people say? Supposedly it brings you to the levels you are experiencing at weeks 3-4 in week 1 thus enabling you to cut the cycle short at the end. Making a 10wk cycle into a 6-8wk cycle etc.
    I havn't seen data on this, so i'd have to say it's purely anecdotal, also havn't researched that specific idea much either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post



    (a) Elevated blood pressure

    [/SIZE]
    I have a friend that would juice up alot, would never properly PCT off. Said it didn't really matter, he would buy some hormone pills from *** and run with it, I kept telling him he was a clown. Of course people don't listen, his gains would leave his size and strength would leave, but don't worry a few months he'll just juice back up and train(improper)! Well he decides to get juiced again, throws 415 on bench, has me spot it up, I can see the water retention all in his face. "Man wtf few months ago that was no problem." The next week, I get a phone call. "We are at the hospital, Chris (32 years old, great health and shape, runs 2 miles a day and lifts 5 M-F) has had a stroke. They are rushing him to *larger town*." Immediate surgery was taken he sat in the hospital with a 50/50 chance of living or dying after the surgery, he lived and recovered well, but for people like us, his life has stopped. Come to find out he tore a carotid artery, the doctor said he will never be able to lift again in his life due to the fact that his blood pressure make peak and it could kill him on the spot, immediately. Now he has went from about 215, to 180, with no muscle tone at all.

    My point is, he never had tests done to check himself before or during the steroids, and used no cycle assist or anything. He was hard headed, and didn't realize what could happen. BECAREFUL, INFORM FRIENDS about the effects, and mostly this website for information.
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    Dang, that sucks.
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    That story is horrifying good thing I eat garlic though right
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    I wanted to post the imoportant points i see in this thread, because I feel it is very benificial for those who have been misguided by all the bro science.
    If you want to learn a little about how steroids work, and have a better understanding of them, I suggest you read the whole convo.....
    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Pat,

    It seems most people recommend running test cycles for the standard 12 weeks + as opposed to 8-10 weeks...what benefits does running 12+ weeks provide compared to say 8-10? I think I saw somewhere that you said gains level off after about 8 weeks. Does 12+ weeks help solidify the gains?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I dont think its gonna do anything more at that point then delay the crash
    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think it would be more likely to solidify the HTPA shutdown as opposed to the gains
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Is keeping cycle length less merely to aide in HPTA recovery or is there another reason? Also, why do gains seem to stall after so many weeks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is that exogenous hormones can have negative side effects other than HPTA suppression
    the answer to your second question is because you can only grow up until the point where some limiting factor is going to put a halt to it. There could be many limiting factors. Obviously we cant take steroids and gain 8 pounds every two weeks indefinitely. And this is does not necessarily have to do with insensitivity to androgens. If that were going on then one would expect to lose weight after a while instead of maintaining their gains during the rest of the cycle
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Would hepatoxicity be one of these factors in the case of PHs (just making sure I understand you)?


    Is this why blasting and cruising works? You're letting other factors recover while cruising and then eventually blasting to make another gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is yes
    the answer to your other question is no. apparently you failed to fully understand what i said
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    LOL! Poignant yet not entirely helpful!!! Sometimes your answers are about as good as a round of slap and tickle (no homo)!

    I understood this.

    I believe this is where my reply was short sighted. What types of limiting factors are we talking about here? Metabolic, genetic? Or am I totally off the ball on this one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    metabolic, which ultimately is a consequence of your genes of course. these limits are built into your physiology so no amount of blasting or cruising is gonna matter. the only thing you could do is try to address them via some sort of pharmacological intervention i suppose, but you would have to know what you are addressing to begin with
    myostatin inhibitors are interesting because they seem to disable the brakes on a whole slew of physiological processes involved in the limitation of muscle growth, some of which may be responsible for the plateau of growth seen after several weeks of AAS use
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    a better way to look at this is to realize that your muscles are a dynamic tissue - with its amino acids always being broken down for energy as well as always being built up via anabolic processes. how large they get is a function of where this balance lies. diet, training, and drugs can all affect this set point.
    So adding anabolic steroids will simply reset your muscles to a different balance of anabolic and catabolic processes, leading to a new baseline of muscle mass.
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    That makes sense. So, even though you're resetting the baseline, has there been any research showing that the baseline has a genetic ceiling? I ask because there is always the debate as to whether a bodybuilder is so big because he's taking XYZ drugs. While that may be true to an extent and using the baseline context, is it fair to say that the bodybuilder is able to obtain a higher baseline because he is genetically able to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    everything regarding your physiological potential is determined by your genes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSin View Post
    Why would you stop after 8-10 weeks of cycling if bloodwork is normal and are on TRT? TRT means significantly lesser fertility and you aren't really concerned with HPTA recovery...
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as opposed to what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    As opposed to longer 12+ week cycles? This way you can cycle more times per year and hopefully put on more muscle. If gains slow/stop after approximately 8-10 weeks and continuing with the cycle doesn't help keep the gains...then why not stop, give your receptors and body a break, and then cycle again? If this is the best approach, why does it seem everyone advocates for longer cycles, like the standard 12+ weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Why continue with a cycle past 8-10 weeks if the gains have stopped? What benefit is there to continue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if you want to put on the most muscle (and dont care about the downsides) then stay on cycle year around. thats what most of the pros do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the benefit is that you will stay at that level. and by manipulating other aspects of your program with diet, training, or different kinds of drugs you can still coax yourself to slowly keep gaining even
    by stopping you will lose a good part of your gains and then when you cycle again you pretty much will just end up at the same sticking point. You will have lost a few months where you could have gained a little more
    thats why the pros dont go off.
    with that said, its a very unhealthy thing to do
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Ok, I think I need to seriously rethink what I'm expecting to obtain with diet, lifting, and AAS/PH use. I would like to obtain the look of a natural professional bodybuilder like Ulisses Jr. (5'10" 185lbs. contest & 205lbs offseason) and a Brandon Curry back when he completed in the 2004 MuscleMania (natural contest) as a middleweight. Granted both these guys have probably been lifting since high school, 6+ years lifting to obtain that look, and of course have great gentics, but do you think with the use of AAS a person could obtain that size and look of a natural bodybuilder in half the time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    anything is possible. we are all created different with different potentials
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    I'm sorry for bumping this thread.
    However, does this all mean that longer cycles do not equal easier maintainable gains? For years I've read how a longer cycle is more beneficial because it equals easier maintainable gains, but after reading this, it would seem to not be true. Is that the case?
    And if it is, then why do people do longer cycles? Just to look bigger for a longer period of time with no actual benefit (i.e. maintaining gains easier). Or because most people are deluded into thinking the way I thought for the longest time?
    You know, because you often see people 'bridging' compounds to 'solidify' gains from another compound. And it 'made' sense initially. But that isn't the case also, right?
    Cheers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I really dont have the answer to whether longer cycles result in more maintainable gains. maybe longer cycles with moderate doses is better than shorter ones with high doses in the long run, maybe it makes no difference
    people do longer cycles probably because they enjoy being on drugs. its as simple as that. they come up with all sorts of rationalization but i think it comes down to the fact that they enjoy training while on
    Quote Originally Posted by bryan101b View Post
    yes, yes we do.
    but there appears to be research stating gains from oral steroids, seem to cease (or significantly slow down) after 6-8 weeks of usage. and the time after that is just increasing the amount of potential side effects. so pa isn't just making stuff up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    at that point continuing the steroids will maintain gains for the most part. Unless the dose is increased substantially, which can result in renewed gains
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    Wow. Kind of mind blowing if all of this is true. Kind of makes anything over 8 weeks (oral/injectable) seem pointless if longer cycles don't result in muscle being easier to keep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    this has to be put into context. the steroids themselves will have "ceilinged off" on their impact (growthwise that is - they will still act strongly to preserve muscle gains).
    However you can continue your cycle and alter other variables (diet, training, other drugs) and continue to make progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    if you're just looking to look bigger than joe schmoe then yes it is kind of pointless in my opinion. however, if you are trying to turn pro then you really need to stay on longterm/indefinitely, and then see a psych because trying to go pro in BB is about one of the dumbest things I could imagine! lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    when u compare the sacrifice you make to your life and to your health compared to the financial rewards i completely agree. some people feel that the reward of a title is meaningful to them regardless. everyone is free to pursue whatever goals they wish
    Bumps
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    Bump for newbs thinking of running redonkulous oral cycles
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Bump for newbs thinking of running redonkulous oral cycles
    My current cycle will be about 22 weeks when done.... all oral and redonkulous as all hell!!!!



    Had to jump on this one lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post

    My current cycle will be about 22 weeks when done.... all oral and redonkulous as all hell!!!!

    Had to jump on this one lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post

    My current cycle will be about 22 weeks when done.... all oral and redonkulous as all hell!!!!

    Had to jump on this one lol
    22 weeks of orals? What orals are you running? I'd love to do a long cycle like that of orals
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    My current cycle will be about 22 weeks when done.... all oral and redonkulous as all hell!!!!



    Had to jump on this one lol
    yall need to man up. I'm popping 22 weeks of orals in a week. Gonna be yoked and glowing in the dark. U jelly?
    Will never be brawny forever a scrawny. The only exercise that matters is pull ups, that's a scientific fact you can prove it with magic and science and stuff
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    At the very least I hope he's talking about non methyls.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD261985 View Post
    At the very least I hope he's talking about non methyls.....
    Idc! Imagine 22 weeks of things like trest tren stano hex furuza! I would be shut down soooo hard after 22 weeks of that though..
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    Quote Originally Posted by reps4jesus View Post
    Idc! Imagine 22 weeks of things like trest tren stano hex furuza! I would be shut down soooo hard after 22 weeks of that though..
    HAHA yeah its non methyl until the last 5 weeks of contest prep and I am already shut down for good so HRT between show cycles. I went with oral only and no hrt just to test out how 4ad would due as a replacement while on a cycle of Trendione at 150mg a week and 5alpha test a few times a day. The last 5 weeks are still up in the air depending how I look and what my blood work comes back as I work in the medical community and get bloods done well...really when I feel like so im kind of spoiled like that. With no blood work and HRT option this cycle would be retarded I was just having fun with the post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    HAHA You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jbryand101b again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    HAHA yeah its non methyl until the last 5 weeks of contest prep and I am already shut down for good so HRT between show cycles. I went with oral only and no hrt just to test out how 4ad would due as a replacement while on a cycle of Trendione at 150mg a week and 5alpha test a few times a day. The last 5 weeks are still up in the air depending how I look and what my blood work comes back as I work in the medical community and get bloods done well...really when I feel like so im kind of spoiled like that. With no blood work and HRT option this cycle would be retarded I was just having fun with the post.
    wait you're shut down for good as in permanent?
    Will never be brawny forever a scrawny. The only exercise that matters is pull ups, that's a scientific fact you can prove it with magic and science and stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messer View Post
    wait you're shut down for good as in permanent?
    Yes I am on HRT I screwed up my body before I got back into bodybuilding my HRT is not really related to the use of prohormones. It is genetic mostly with half my family on HRT my test was not dead per say but stayed around 300 between cycles and since I knew it was going to happen anyway I got the script about a year ago now and use it between otc cycles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    Yes I am on HRT I screwed up my body before I got back into bodybuilding my HRT is not really related to the use of prohormones. It is genetic mostly with half my family on HRT my test was not dead per say but stayed around 300 between cycles and since I knew it was going to happen anyway I got the script about a year ago now and use it between otc cycles.
    oh ok I thought you were using so much gear you did it
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    I wanted to post the imoportant points i see in this thread, because I feel it is very benificial for those who have been misguided by all the bro science.
    If you want to learn a little about how steroids work, and have a better understanding of them, I suggest you read the whole convo.....
    -----------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Pat,

    It seems most people recommend running test cycles for the standard 12 weeks + as opposed to 8-10 weeks...what benefits does running 12+ weeks provide compared to say 8-10? I think I saw somewhere that you said gains level off after about 8 weeks. Does 12+ weeks help solidify the gains?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I dont think its gonna do anything more at that point then delay the crash
    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think it would be more likely to solidify the HTPA shutdown as opposed to the gains
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Is keeping cycle length less merely to aide in HPTA recovery or is there another reason? Also, why do gains seem to stall after so many weeks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is that exogenous hormones can have negative side effects other than HPTA suppression
    the answer to your second question is because you can only grow up until the point where some limiting factor is going to put a halt to it. There could be many limiting factors. Obviously we cant take steroids and gain 8 pounds every two weeks indefinitely. And this is does not necessarily have to do with insensitivity to androgens. If that were going on then one would expect to lose weight after a while instead of maintaining their gains during the rest of the cycle
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    Would hepatoxicity be one of these factors in the case of PHs (just making sure I understand you)?


    Is this why blasting and cruising works? You're letting other factors recover while cruising and then eventually blasting to make another gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to your first question is yes
    the answer to your other question is no. apparently you failed to fully understand what i said
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    LOL! Poignant yet not entirely helpful!!! Sometimes your answers are about as good as a round of slap and tickle (no homo)!

    I understood this.

    I believe this is where my reply was short sighted. What types of limiting factors are we talking about here? Metabolic, genetic? Or am I totally off the ball on this one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    metabolic, which ultimately is a consequence of your genes of course. these limits are built into your physiology so no amount of blasting or cruising is gonna matter. the only thing you could do is try to address them via some sort of pharmacological intervention i suppose, but you would have to know what you are addressing to begin with
    myostatin inhibitors are interesting because they seem to disable the brakes on a whole slew of physiological processes involved in the limitation of muscle growth, some of which may be responsible for the plateau of growth seen after several weeks of AAS use
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    a better way to look at this is to realize that your muscles are a dynamic tissue - with its amino acids always being broken down for energy as well as always being built up via anabolic processes. how large they get is a function of where this balance lies. diet, training, and drugs can all affect this set point.
    So adding anabolic steroids will simply reset your muscles to a different balance of anabolic and catabolic processes, leading to a new baseline of muscle mass.
    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleAddict83 View Post
    That makes sense. So, even though you're resetting the baseline, has there been any research showing that the baseline has a genetic ceiling? I ask because there is always the debate as to whether a bodybuilder is so big because he's taking XYZ drugs. While that may be true to an extent and using the baseline context, is it fair to say that the bodybuilder is able to obtain a higher baseline because he is genetically able to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    everything regarding your physiological potential is determined by your genes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClearSin View Post
    Why would you stop after 8-10 weeks of cycling if bloodwork is normal and are on TRT? TRT means significantly lesser fertility and you aren't really concerned with HPTA recovery...
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as opposed to what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    As opposed to longer 12+ week cycles? This way you can cycle more times per year and hopefully put on more muscle. If gains slow/stop after approximately 8-10 weeks and continuing with the cycle doesn't help keep the gains...then why not stop, give your receptors and body a break, and then cycle again? If this is the best approach, why does it seem everyone advocates for longer cycles, like the standard 12+ weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Why continue with a cycle past 8-10 weeks if the gains have stopped? What benefit is there to continue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if you want to put on the most muscle (and dont care about the downsides) then stay on cycle year around. thats what most of the pros do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the benefit is that you will stay at that level. and by manipulating other aspects of your program with diet, training, or different kinds of drugs you can still coax yourself to slowly keep gaining even
    by stopping you will lose a good part of your gains and then when you cycle again you pretty much will just end up at the same sticking point. You will have lost a few months where you could have gained a little more
    thats why the pros dont go off.
    with that said, its a very unhealthy thing to do
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalker21 View Post
    Ok, I think I need to seriously rethink what I'm expecting to obtain with diet, lifting, and AAS/PH use. I would like to obtain the look of a natural professional bodybuilder like Ulisses Jr. (5'10" 185lbs. contest & 205lbs offseason) and a Brandon Curry back when he completed in the 2004 MuscleMania (natural contest) as a middleweight. Granted both these guys have probably been lifting since high school, 6+ years lifting to obtain that look, and of course have great gentics, but do you think with the use of AAS a person could obtain that size and look of a natural bodybuilder in half the time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    anything is possible. we are all created different with different potentials
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    I'm sorry for bumping this thread.
    However, does this all mean that longer cycles do not equal easier maintainable gains? For years I've read how a longer cycle is more beneficial because it equals easier maintainable gains, but after reading this, it would seem to not be true. Is that the case?
    And if it is, then why do people do longer cycles? Just to look bigger for a longer period of time with no actual benefit (i.e. maintaining gains easier). Or because most people are deluded into thinking the way I thought for the longest time?
    You know, because you often see people 'bridging' compounds to 'solidify' gains from another compound. And it 'made' sense initially. But that isn't the case also, right?
    Cheers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I really dont have the answer to whether longer cycles result in more maintainable gains. maybe longer cycles with moderate doses is better than shorter ones with high doses in the long run, maybe it makes no difference
    people do longer cycles probably because they enjoy being on drugs. its as simple as that. they come up with all sorts of rationalization but i think it comes down to the fact that they enjoy training while on
    Quote Originally Posted by bryan101b View Post
    yes, yes we do.
    but there appears to be research stating gains from oral steroids, seem to cease (or significantly slow down) after 6-8 weeks of usage. and the time after that is just increasing the amount of potential side effects. so pa isn't just making stuff up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    at that point continuing the steroids will maintain gains for the most part. Unless the dose is increased substantially, which can result in renewed gains
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie86 View Post
    Wow. Kind of mind blowing if all of this is true. Kind of makes anything over 8 weeks (oral/injectable) seem pointless if longer cycles don't result in muscle being easier to keep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    this has to be put into context. the steroids themselves will have "ceilinged off" on their impact (growthwise that is - they will still act strongly to preserve muscle gains).
    However you can continue your cycle and alter other variables (diet, training, other drugs) and continue to make progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by discs View Post
    if you're just looking to look bigger than joe schmoe then yes it is kind of pointless in my opinion. however, if you are trying to turn pro then you really need to stay on longterm/indefinitely, and then see a psych because trying to go pro in BB is about one of the dumbest things I could imagine! lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    when u compare the sacrifice you make to your life and to your health compared to the financial rewards i completely agree. some people feel that the reward of a title is meaningful to them regardless. everyone is free to pursue whatever goals they wish
    Bumps
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Bumps
    Very educational. This completely changed my view on cycles. And the broscience behind long cycles. I will be running no longer than 8 week oral cycles. I don't understand why one wouldn't want to return to hormonal homeostasis sooner so they could run a new cycle sooner and therefor produce more gains?
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    Interesting reading, cheers for bumping.

    In theory, couldn't you run a cycle for longer than 8 weeks if your goal was purely a hard cut? As you'd still be preserving muscle mass without trying to necessarily gain more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by reps4jesus View Post

    Very educational. This completely changed my view on cycles. And the broscience behind long cycles. I will be running no longer than 8 week oral cycles. I don't understand why one wouldn't want to return to hormonal homeostasis sooner so they could run a new cycle sooner and therefor produce more gains?
    We just like being on, you know? Esp when injecting, its easy to want to keep going.
    And the pro's, well, its part of the game.
  

  
 

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