Newbie, first cycle recommendations

[HollywoodHam]

im 28 years old and have been lifting for over 2 years. i want to do a cycle for the first time. i hear first timers shouldnt stack, and then i hear you should. anyhow if anyone has any recommendations for a first cycle, that would be somewhat easy, i would appreciate any input. I dont mind doing injections, and would be preferable to orals. im 5'10'' 193lbs. thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[Cheif]

im 28 years old and have been lifting for over 2 years. i want to do a cycle for the first time. i hear first timers shouldnt stack, and then i hear you should. anyhow if anyone has any recommendations for a first cycle, that would be somewhat easy, i would appreciate any input. I dont mind doing injections, and would be preferable to orals. im 5'10'' 193lbs. thanks in advance for any responses.

500mg of Test E. a week is a pretty popular "beginner" cycle.

Id recommend something like that, unless you don't know ****.

Then id do some research, then consider.

Pop quiz:
Do you know what PCT is?

 

[pyrobatt]

im 28 years old and have been lifting for over 2 years. i want to do a cycle for the first time. i hear first timers shouldnt stack, and then i hear you should. anyhow if anyone has any recommendations for a first cycle, that would be somewhat easy, i would appreciate any input. I dont mind doing injections, and would be preferable to orals. im 5'10'' 193lbs. thanks in advance for any responses.

Another thing you should post is your bodyfat%.If your over 15% your cheating yourself by doing a cycle because it will come with fat gain in pct.Which means end of cycle you mite be 16-17% which means your body won't handle carbs aswell after you stop.Insulin resistance and all.
PCT is something you should plan before you choose what orals or injects you want.in jec ts and orals have different pct dosing protocols .
Train for one more year and come back.Your endocrine system has to get used to packing on muscle /gaining good weight before you jump on the train or you will end up losing gains in a week or so.

Hope I helped!

 

[HollywoodHam]

cheif, i do know what pct is, and i appreciate the advice
pyrobatt, thanks for the info, i was not aware of that, and am going to look more into the pct before i continue my research about cycles. also so anything less than 15% is ok?

 

[pyrobatt]

cheif, i do know what pct is, and i appreciate the advice
pyrobatt, thanks for the info, i was not aware of that, and am going to look more into the pct before i continue my research about cycles. also so anything less than 15% is ok?

I find the perfect range for building muscle is 9-15% bodyfat. anything lower and you'll be working too hard to maintain to worry about bulking.Anything higher and you will have some extra estrogen floating around and you won't handle carbs that well.

Atleast its my personal outlook.

 

[The Storm16]

I find the perfect range for building muscle is 9-15% bodyfat. anything lower and you'll be working too hard to maintain to worry about bulking.Anything higher and you will have some extra estrogen floating around and you won't handle carbs that well.

Atleast its my personal outlook.

I've definitely heard this before. Did you experience this or was there a study or something about it?

 

[pyrobatt]

I've definitely heard this before. Did you experience this or was there a study or something about it?

experience mostly.Higher bodyfat dose mean more estrogen is floating around and being "chubby" is linked to decreased insulin sensitivity.
Good read : http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-sensitivity-and-fat-loss.html
and effects on bodyfat and estrogen translates into obesity/being overweight is correlated with high estrogen levels and thus, low testosterone levels. Fat cells contain aromatase which produce estrogen. More fat means more estrogen. This typically doesn’t typically become an issue until one has over 19% or 20% body fat.

also quoted from t nation

If you're obese, low carb diets are the best way to go to lose fat – you're so insulin resistant that any carbohydrates you eat will most likely be stored in adipose tissue. Sorry. Research shows that the best approach for this demographic to improve insulin sensitivity is to lose body fat through low-carb eating. Once you're lean, you'll have more dietary options.

However, research has also shown that prolonged low-carb eating may reduce insulin sensitivity. Can you say "post-dieting or post-contest weight rebound"? This may be due to enzymatic changes in the body (for example, pyruvate dehydrogenase activation – a key enzyme in carbohydrate metabolism – is reduced after prolonged periods of low carbohydrate intake). Use it or lose it, I guess?

I don't like to get caught up in the confines of any one, universal dietary "system." I prefer instead to draw from different approaches based on the individual's unique situation.

For carbohydrate intake, I look at it as a seesaw approach. On one side, you have a person's relative insulin resistance, on the other side, their suggested carbohydrate intake.

If someone's insulin resistance level is high, then his/her carbohydrate intake should be low. If someone's insulin resistance level is low (and insulin sensitivity is high), then his/her carbohydrate intake should be high. If it's in the middle, carbohydrates should be moderate and targeted.

Practical application strategy – Since insulin resistance is closely correlated with body fat, we'll put it in terms of ballpark body fat percentages:

>25% body fat: Low-carb diets would be the best. Think Paleo, Caveman, LaLanne's "if man made it don't eat it", or Poliquin's "run, fly, swim, green and grows in the ground" approach.

12-25% body fat: Stick with the "earn your carbs" theme. If you're consistently strength training like a madman, you can reintroduce carbs back into your diet. Start slowly, perhaps 0.75-1.0g/lb of lean body mass. Targeted timing matters – spread intake over periods where insulin sensitivity is at its highest (peri-workout and breakfast).

<10% body fat: In addition to peri-workout nutrition and breakfast, I think carbs should be a consistent part of the diet for this demographic. Something like a traditional bodybuilding high protein, moderate-to-high carb, lower fat, with fat as a by-product of protein sources approach. I would go with 1-2 grams protein per pound of lean body mass spread relatively evenly over the course of the day.

 

[DNAMP]

another typical first cycle test E 500 mg/week for 10 weeks with dbol @ 30mg a day for the first 4 weeks, youll have bigger gains

 

[HollywoodHam]

another typical first cycle test E 500 mg/week for 10 weeks with dbol @ 30mg a day for the first 4 weeks, youll have bigger gains

if i went with that cycle, and either added dbol or did not, would i need to ad something to keep my estrogen levels from going out of control? what would i ad, how much and how often? also how would my pct be for a 10 week cycle like this?

 

[HollywoodHam]

another typical first cycle test E 500 mg/week for 10 weeks with dbol @ 30mg a day for the first 4 weeks, youll have bigger gains

If i did that with the dbol for the first 4 weeks, and test e 500mg for 10 weeks would i need to take anything with the cycle to keep my estrogen levels from going out of control? also on a cycle like this what when would i start pct and what would i take for it? I'm familiar with the concept that you need to get your testosterone back producing naturally quick enough so that you dont lose gains, but am fairly in the dark about what you can take for it. and how to.

 

[HollywoodHam]

another typical first cycle test E 500 mg/week for 10 weeks with dbol @ 30mg a day for the first 4 weeks, youll have bigger gains

i heard it if you mix dbol into a cycle its good to pyramid it, what do you think? also, if i took the test e 500 mg for ten weeks, what would i do as pct?

 

[Lukef2000]

You will need a serm like clomid or nolvadex for pct. Either one will do but both would be better. During cycle have an AI like armidex or aromasin in case you get any estrogen sides. You don't really need one until you start to get sides because having too little estrogen will hinder your gains. Hope that helps.

 

[DangerDave]

If i did that with the dbol for the first 4 weeks, and test e 500mg for 10 weeks would i need to take anything with the cycle to keep my estrogen levels from going out of control? also on a cycle like this what when would i start pct and what would i take for it? I'm familiar with the concept that you need to get your testosterone back producing naturally quick enough so that you dont lose gains, but am fairly in the dark about what you can take for it. and how to.

Ok I will lay out a simple cycle. You then ask a question on the compounds..

Week 1-12 Test E 250mg 2x a week (500mg total)

Week1-4 dbol 30mg ed

Week2-12 Adex .5mg ed for 1 week then .5mg EOD wk3-12

Week 13-18 Exemestane 20-25mg EOD (you can do less time its more as needed to keep estrogen down and boost LH/Test levels.

Week 14-18 Clomid @ 50mg ED or 100/50/50/50. Nolva can be used instead but Clomid and nolva can't be used with adex because it fights your receptors.

Of course you can throw in basic supps like creatine, daily vitamins and DAA for pct.

Hope that helps man. Ask any questions. This is a basic cycle with ancillaries and pct to cover all angles in my opinion.

 

[TestEinstein]

Ok I will lay out a simple cycle. You then ask a question on the compounds..

Week 1-12 Test E 250mg 2x a week (500mg total)

Week1-4 dbol 30mg ed

Week2-12 Adex .5mg ed for 1 week then .5mg EOD wk3-12

Week 13-18 Exemestane 20-25mg EOD (you can do less time its more as needed to keep estrogen down and boost LH/Test levels.

Week 14-18 Clomid @ 50mg ED or 100/50/50/50. Nolva can be used instead but Clomid and nolva can't be used with adex because it fights your receptors.

Of course you can throw in basic supps like creatine, daily vitamins and DAA for pct.

Hope that helps man. Ask any questions. This is a basic cycle with ancillaries and pct to cover all angles in my opinion.

Pretty good, but I would advise the OP that estrogen is good for you right up until it causes problems for you... I have known several people who have done dbol/test with just on-hand nolva and been fine (I did deca/dbol years ago without issue). I would use the least possible aromatase inhibitor, if any, until estrogen-related side effects became problematic. You'll be happier with the estrogen floating around, and so will your cholesterol levels. Just keep the SERM close for immediate anti-gyno etc, and if a flare up occurs initiate an AI use for the remainder of the cycle.

 

[DangerDave]

Yes but an AI like adex or estane are used to not eliminate estrogen but keep it low. Why would I wait for sides then its going to take 1 week to get stable blood plasma levels of my AI to stop/counter it?

I would rather prevent sides than let them happen first. I would rather be proactive instead of reactive.

I feel fine if I keep my estrogen lower but still existant. Plus using estane or adex is proven to boost you LH/TEST levels as well as IGF-1 that is actuallly lowered by clomid. Using adex on cycle can actually help you to not shutdown as hard. I'm talking like .25 - .5mg eod after stable blood levels. That is a very minor dose but will keep estrogen in check yet still existant for its benefits. And correct me if I'm wrong but Deca is usually associated with prolactin side effects not aromatization of estrogen and that's why test is used as a base? Plus dbol/deca doesn't even sound fun.

Low doses of adex can keep your estrogen at 50% and that's after test e aromatizes. Estane is best used in PCT because its a suicide inhibitor that has no estrogen rebound and boosts LH levels dramatically.

 

[DNAMP]

if i went with that cycle, and either added dbol or did not, would i need to ad something to keep my estrogen levels from going out of control? what would i ad, how much and how often? also how would my pct be for a 10 week cycle like this?

If your bf is low, you will most likely not have trouble with estrogen sides such as gyno or bloating. Take adex like e3d if you really want to do it consistently. But if your prone to estro sides the. Deff take it consistant. As far as pct

Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 150 first 3 days/100 for the rest of that week and next week. 50mg for 2 weeks after that
Total 4 weeks

 

[DangerDave]

Taking adex e3d it stupid. You are wasting money if you do because you are letting your blood potency go up and down. You must establish a steady blood level. That takes about 7days straight at .5-1mg ED. Read about adex. After a week then you can skip a day so you would take it eod.

Its half life is 46.8 hours. .5-1mg ed has proven to lower estrogen in post-puberty boys/men at around 50%.

Read my source or Google it for Christ sake before you give advice. Bro-science is bullsh*t.

Mauras N, Bishop K, Merinbaum D, Emeribe U, Agbo F, Lowe E (August 2009). "Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of anastrozole in pubertal boys with recent-onset gynecomastia".*"J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab."**94**(8): 2975-8.*doi
:10.1210/jc.2008-2527
.PMID
*19470631

*note that it has more great benefits than estro control. Google it..... and actually read about it.

 

[lboston]

Ok I will lay out a simple cycle. You then ask a question on the compounds..

Week 1-12 Test E 250mg 2x a week (500mg total)

Week1-4 dbol 30mg ed

Week2-12 Adex .5mg ed for 1 week then .5mg EOD wk3-12

Week 13-18 Exemestane 20-25mg EOD (you can do less time its more as needed to keep estrogen down and boost LH/Test levels.

Week 14-18 Clomid @ 50mg ED or 100/50/50/50. Nolva can be used instead but Clomid and nolva can't be used with adex because it fights your receptors.

Of course you can throw in basic supps like creatine, daily vitamins and DAA for pct.

Hope that helps man. Ask any questions. This is a basic cycle with ancillaries and pct to cover all angles in my opinion.

I was looking for something exactly like this...thanks

 

[DangerDave]

I was looking for something exactly like this...thanks

Your welcome. That is basic stuff. The AIs can be moved around but rule of thumb is (its not bro-science)-

you have to dose ed for 1 week to establish a solid/steady blood plasma level.

Then dose Ed or Eod to maintain that level.

It doesn't have to be used the whole time or at all. Remember this stuff wasn't around in arnolds day and what was didn't have much research behind it.

BUT why risk it? Or wait for sides before use? Wouldn't you rather not have them at all? Just food for thought.

 

[Neoamerican]

JME
My first cycle was
TestC 500mg EW wk1-12
Superdrol wk1-4 then 10-14
Had Adex+nolva on hand but never needed them.
Did clomid DAA pct Went from 190 to 215+ ripped in that time and i think the SD really dryed me up alot.20-30mg Kept 15lbs from that 1
First is always the best no matter what you pick , get ready and enjoy

 

[lboston]

Your welcome. That is basic stuff. The AIs can be moved around but rule of thumb is (its not bro-science)-

you have to dose ed for 1 week to establish a solid/steady blood plasma level.

Then dose Ed or Eod to maintain that level.

It doesn't have to be used the whole time or at all. Remember this stuff wasn't around in arnolds day and what was didn't have much research behind it.

BUT why risk it? Or wait for sides before use? Wouldn't you rather not have them at all? Just food for thought.

Exactly what I was thinking...

 

[DNAMP]

Taking adex e3d it stupid. You are wasting money if you do because you are letting your blood potency go up and down. You must establish a steady blood level. That takes about 7days straight at .5-1mg ED. Read about adex. After a week then you can skip a day so you would take it eod.

Its half life is 46.8 hours. .5-1mg ed has proven to lower estrogen in post-puberty boys/men at around 50%.

Read my source or Google it for Christ sake before you give advice. Bro-science is bullsh*t.

Mauras N, Bishop K, Merinbaum D, Emeribe U, Agbo F, Lowe E (August 2009). "Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of anastrozole in pubertal boys with recent-onset gynecomastia".*"J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab."**94**(8): 2975-8.*doi
:10.1210/jc.2008-2527
.PMID
*19470631

*note that it has more great benefits than estro control. Google it..... and actually read about it.

I do ACTUALLY read about stuff the same way you do. I'm a pharmacist student so I know all the health background of ****. Don't attack me and say read this or that. I'm here learning just as you were at one point. My B

 

[DangerDave]

Not attacking just pointing out bro-science that runs rampant in our community. Im sure you do read but please for the saftey of others do so before adding input. If it can't be back by a study or science or be proven by results then it shouldn't be quoted.

It was not aiming at you just the constant same retarded question people post before actually googling or god forbid use a elementary grade education and reading lol.

Sorry if it came off like I was aiming all that at you bro. But e3d for AI is broscience or at least I haven't seen the study. If you have by all means please share.

 

[TestEinstein]

Yes but an AI like adex or estane are used to not eliminate estrogen but keep it low. Why would I wait for sides then its going to take 1 week to get stable blood plasma levels of my AI to stop/counter it?

I would rather prevent sides than let them happen first. I would rather be proactive instead of reactive.

I feel fine if I keep my estrogen lower but still existant. Plus using estane or adex is proven to boost you LH/TEST levels as well as IGF-1 that is actuallly lowered by clomid. Using adex on cycle can actually help you to not shutdown as hard. I'm talking like .25 - .5mg eod after stable blood levels. That is a very minor dose but will keep estrogen in check yet still existant for its benefits. And correct me if I'm wrong but Deca is usually associated with prolactin side effects not aromatization of estrogen and that's why test is used as a base? Plus dbol/deca doesn't even sound fun.

Low doses of adex can keep your estrogen at 50% and that's after test e aromatizes. Estane is best used in PCT because its a suicide inhibitor that has no estrogen rebound and boosts LH levels dramatically.

Yeah, I know how AIs are used today. For years there were no AIs used for test cycles because they simply weren't available and there were few problems for those with low enough starting bodyfat. Now guys cycle at 20-25% BF and get confused when their nipples puff up. Deca was and is associated with progesterone-source side effects, agonizing the 17aa estradiol metabolite of dianabol. I'm sure prolactin may be an issue as well. But reducing the concentration of serum estradiol will help by some measure in a deca/dbol cycle, so it would still have some value. They're hardly run anymore because of the 3-receptor suppression, toxicity, gyno concern etc. I have to tell you though, years ago there was nothing like flying around the gym with no joint pain and a dbol "destroy all humans" mentality. IMO however test makes any cycle better.

I actually agree with what you've said, but taking into consideration how long it takes for permanant gyno to develop, I prefer to use no AI unless I have some estrogen-related side effects present, and use the fast-acting SERMS as the first line to immediately eliminate that threat until the AI kicks in. Using an AI to counter active sides is asinine. Really just comes down to maximizing mass rather than minimizing sides, which is a crossroads we all get to eventually. 2 each his own, bro.

 

[HollywoodHam]

Ok I will lay out a simple cycle. You then ask a question on the compounds..

Week 1-12 Test E 250mg 2x a week (500mg total)

Week1-4 dbol 30mg ed

Week2-12 Adex .5mg ed for 1 week then .5mg EOD wk3-12

Week 13-18 Exemestane 20-25mg EOD (you can do less time its more as needed to keep estrogen down and boost LH/Test levels.

Week 14-18 Clomid @ 50mg ED or 100/50/50/50. Nolva can be used instead but Clomid and nolva can't be used with adex because it fights your receptors.

Of course you can throw in basic supps like creatine, daily vitamins and DAA for pct.

Hope that helps man. Ask any questions. This is a basic cycle with ancillaries and pct to cover all angles in my opinion.

Hey, thanks a lot Dave, that really helps a lot to see everything laid out there. That pretty much answers a lot of questions for me, and reading your reasons for this further down the post helps a lot as well. I know I don’t have access to clomid, but was told I could do an hcg shot in place of that. Would that work? And would I still need the exemestane if I did an hcg shot. Again thanks in advance for any info you’ve already been extremely helpful.

 

[DangerDave]

Hey, thanks a lot Dave, that really helps a lot to see everything laid out there. That pretty much answers a lot of questions for me, and reading your reasons for this further down the post helps a lot as well. I know I don’t have access to clomid, but was told I could do an hcg shot in place of that. Would that work? And would I still need the exemestane if I did an hcg shot. Again thanks in advance for any info you’ve already been extremely helpful.

No you NEED A SERM. Either clomid or nolva. If you go with nolva run it 40/40/20/20/10 if you want it 4 weeks then take out a week at 20mg.

Hcg can be used but be carefully. Its not that focking hcg diet sh1t they advertise. It is cheap but the stuff to mix it +syringes and needles will coat more than the hcg will. If you ran it in the cycle I laid out you would go....

Wk 3-10 500iu ew. That's 2 injections of 250iu each.

You want to inject the night before your test injection. The theory I read about and why people do it is because that is when your system needs it the most. The night before your test injection is your lowest test levels and hcg will be best absorbed and do the best work then.

If you just so happened to get on Google then type in "research chemicals" and then if you found a online pharmacy and googled their name with words like "fake, bunk, scam" you would prolly stumble on a source for serms.... just saying ;-)

 

[HollywoodHam]

No you NEED A SERM. Either clomid or nolva. If you go with nolva run it 40/40/20/20/10 if you want it 4 weeks then take out a week at 20mg.

Hcg can be used but be carefully. Its not that focking hcg diet sh1t they advertise. It is cheap but the stuff to mix it +syringes and needles will coat more than the hcg will. If you ran it in the cycle I laid out you would go....

Wk 3-10 500iu ew. That's 2 injections of 250iu each.

You want to inject the night before your test injection. The theory I read about and why people do it is because that is when your system needs it the most. The night before your test injection is your lowest test levels and hcg will be best absorbed and do the best work then.

If you just so happened to get on Google then type in "research chemicals" and then if you found a online pharmacy and googled their name with words like "fake, bunk, scam" you would prolly stumble on a source for serms.... just saying ;-)

so simply said, you need an ai during your cycle and a serm for pct? and you can kind of mix it up as long as you have that basic down?

 

[DangerDave]

Yes AI on cycle in case of estrogen sides. The SERM is to get your nutz working again.

You can't just mix it up tho. I'm not sure what your asking bro. Ask a specific question and I can prolly answer it.

I was mostly talking about HCG in my last post. and that is neither a SERM or AI

 

[HollywoodHam]

Yes AI on cycle in case of estrogen sides. The SERM is to get your nutz working again.

You can't just mix it up tho. I'm not sure what your asking bro. Ask a specific question and I can prolly answer it.

I was mostly talking about HCG in my last post. and that is neither a SERM or AI

i just meant in general, not about hcg. As long as an ai, during the cycle, and a serm(clomid or nolvadex)after. thats what i was asking. as you said before you could switch up the ais. I didnt know that hcg was neither of the two, but thanks for letting me know. again i appreciate the info as you've helped direct my research further in the right direction.

 

[DangerDave]

Yeah man no problem. Just remember arimidex and nolva don't mix. Wouldn't want you to try running them at the same time and waste your money. Other than that there are kits of options and what people use just depends on whats available to them. Good luck

 

[HollywoodHam]

Yeah man no problem. Just remember arimidex and nolva don't mix. Wouldn't want you to try running them at the same time and waste your money. Other than that there are kits of options and what people use just depends on whats available to them. Good luck

just to be clear, can you use arimedix during the cycle, and nolva after for pct? or would that not work..

 

[Lukef2000]

just to be clear, can you use arimedix during the cycle, and nolva after for pct? or would that not work..

Yes that would work. You might want to run armidex through until the end of your pct tho. To avoid estrogen rebound.

 

[DangerDave]

If you want to run a AI through pct you can't use arimidex. Nolva and it fight the same receptors and nolva makes the arimidex un-potent. Run it up to pct, use Nolva through pct and just taper it off.

 

[HollywoodHam]

thanks dave, i appreciate the excellent info, luckily i was able to get a hold of clomid to make things a bit easier ;-)

If you want to run a AI through pct you can't use arimidex. Nolva and it fight the same receptors and nolva makes the arimidex un-potent. Run it up to pct, use Nolva through pct and just taper it off.

 

[DangerDave]

Cool man. Arimidex and clomid together have been a great combo for me during pct. I bounce back pretty quick.

 

[technique88]

Cool man. Arimidex and clomid together have been a great combo for me during pct. I bounce back pretty quick.

I don't know if this is a dumb question but here it goes...adexx acts on the aromatase enzyme and nolva is a serm acting else where. How could these 2 substances possibly compete for receptors when they act on 2 different mechanisms? My computer has been down and I've been accessing this site thru my phone so at the moment I can't do any research on it.

 

[DangerDave]

No I have the study on it though man. I know you can't mix them and there is a good reason. But I'm not going to say a bunch now. I'm on my phone but later I will get my computer and post it up so you can see. Its not that adex won't work with nolva.... nolva just makes it less effective. Brand name Arimidex even says on the warning to not use it with nolva. I will post the stuff for you tho bro.

 

[DangerDave]

Ok here is is brother...

Aromasin with Nolvadex

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness. This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone andrenders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen:

1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.

The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does notalter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Conclusion

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.

Thats all from http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Aromasin-Nolvadex PCT.html and the sources are on the bottom of that page incase you want to dig farther for any research.

 

[DangerDave]

there was another article i read. I will try and find it tonight.

 

[technique88]

Ok here is is brother...

Aromasin with Nolvadex

I've always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it's be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don't we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we're throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness. This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)...SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone andrenders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we'll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs...both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI's. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI's, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen:

1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.

The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don't need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does notalter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Conclusion

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it's worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it's certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won't experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we're going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery...I think Aromasin- considering it's compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.

Thats all from http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Aromasin-Nolvadex%20PCT.html and the sources are on the bottom of that page incase you want to dig farther for any research.

Awesome dude! Thank you this article is sick and definitely clarifies any misconception.

 

[technique88]

there was another article i read. I will try and find it tonight.

Is erase sufficient enough for a PCT AI after a standard test e run?

 

[DangerDave]

It can be. But my philosophy is... erase is just as easy to get as anastrozole or aromasin and even letro. I would run any of those 3 before erase. Prescription grade is always better. Money is nothing when it comes to the quality I put in my body. I learned the hard way lol

 

[technique88]

It can be. But my philosophy is... erase is just as easy to get as anastrozole or aromasin and even letro. I would run any of those 3 before erase. Prescription grade is always better. Money is nothing when it comes to the quality I put in my body. I learned the hard way lol

I feel the same way. Only wuality belongs in our bodies. I was just wondering for my own personal knowledge.

 

[technique88]

*quality

 

[DangerDave]

I don't know if there has been enough studies on erase. There are plenty on letro, adex, estane so we know how much estrogen they block or destroy. I haven't seen anything on Erase... now dont get me wrong its a great product and I have a bottle for an emergency. I just haven't SEEN the study... there could be some out there

 

[technique88]

I don't know if there has been enough studies on erase. There are plenty on letro, adex, estane so we know how much estrogen they block or destroy. I haven't seen anything on Erase... now dont get me wrong its a great product and I have a bottle for an emergency. I just haven't SEEN the study... there could be some out there

I was interested because, now if am wrong please tell me, what the main purpose of the AI during PCT is to combat e2 rebound from the SERM. PH cycles involve a SERM during PCT and erase suffices. I figured by the time you are using erase (during PCT) you'd be fine.

 

[DangerDave]

You can rebound off of an AI. Except Aromasin (exemestane) because it is a suicide aromatase inhibitor.

AIs can help with rebound from a SERM but an AI has other important affects as well. It can boost your LH and FSH production... some can even help boost IGF-1. All of those are very important during pct and recovery.