The "2 on 4 off" trial run

[steakboy]

Hello all. After a recent cycle of some pretty awesome (but painful) sust, I've decided something. I HATE PINNING. Not only do I get feinty, and sick every single time, but the legality of all of it is no longer an option for me. I have way to much riding on my perceived legitimacy.

All and all it was an amazing cycle and I kept nearly every single pound because I was incredibly careful with my PCT. (a couple previous cycles were ill timed and done stupidly.) I did take a lower back injury lately and it slowed me down for about a month, but I'm back in it again nearly full steam ahead.

So here's what I'm looking for: A quick look at what my plan is, how I could improve (if at all), and anybody else's take on Bill Robert's 2 on 4 off cycle. If you haven't read up on Bill's plan, then don't just flame the idea that you're going to shutdown all the way whether you like it or not. The fact may be that the hypothalamus only shuts down during this time, and the testes are in the process of shutting down. Because of this, the rebound afterwards is much quicker. I'm not greedy with my gains... In fact, I'd rather them come in slower and more steadily. A gain of 20lbs is FAR too obvious.

My diet is impeccable. 6-8 clean meals daily not counting pre and post nutrition. This cycle is for cutting and/or recomp. I'm 190 currently and about 13%bf. I was about 200 and around 18% at the end of my cycle. I'd like to see if I can hold my current weight, but lower body fat. LBM will hopefully increase by 4-5lbs and drop the same in BF. I'm really testing out the mettle of my diet here, as well. I'm confident with the help of anabolics I can shed the fat and increase the muscle to some small degree.

(@190 22.8lbs BF : @200 36lbs BF) (Goal weight & BF% is 190 @17lbs BF)

Plan 1:
Week 1-2
19-nor andro (converts to deca and non-methylated) 350mg ED
Epistane - 30mg ED
Halovar - 25mg ED

Liver support - Precycle: CEL cycle assist
Post/intracycle: Myogenix Liver Fix

PCT
Week 3-4
Toremifene 120mg ED week 1, 90mg ED week 2

3g D-Asp throughout (first thing in the morning to not compete with other amino acids)

Week 4-6 Formestane (just in case)

Lather Rinse Repeat for 3 cycles ending with a goal weight of 200lbs and 9%bf

OR Plan 2 (the problem with this is that the esters MAY stay for that third week causing a complete shutdown)

Plan 1:
Week 1-2
Sust 450 @ 900mg one shot only
Epistane - 30mg ED
Halovar - 25mg ED

Liver support - Precycle: CEL cycle assist
Post/intracycle: Myogenix Liver Fix

PCT
Week 3-4
Toremifene 120mg ED week 1, 90mg ED week 2

3g D-Asp ED throughout (first thing in the morning to not compete with other amino acids)

Week 4-6 Formestane (just in case)

Lather Rinse Repeat for 3 cycles ending with a goal weight of 200lbs and 9%bf


I'd like to log if anybody will give a crap.

 

[steakboy]

bumping just once

 

[Eric160]

i just dont see the point of the halo at only 25mg a day

 

[Eric160]

also halo takes about two weeks to kick in so i dont see the point of running it so short. im not familiar with the 19-nor andro and how fast its effects can be felt. id definately go with plan one in your situation and use orals as long as they are fast acting ones like epi sd and im sure theres alot more just need a little reasearch

 

[ReyMan]

2 on 4 off is pure stupidity, just run a normal cycle like everyone else and get good results.

I dont see your logic behind this cycle at all.

 

[Eric160]

2 on 4 off is pure stupidity, just run a normal cycle like everyone else and get good results.

I dont see your logic behind this cycle at all.

i agree with u but the appeal to this plan is to avoid further suppresion of the hpta. id really like to see a study on how true this is though. btw the op said not to flame

 

[steakboy]

i agree with u but the appeal to this plan is to avoid further suppresion of the hpta. id really like to see a study on how true this is though. btw the op said not to flame

no no it's alright Eric... I'm bigger than him and he's jealous.

I'm just messin ReyMan you're great. No really. You want traditional gains with traditional side effects. There's a tried and true method to this that everybody follows and there's little risk because all the innovation of it has been removed. The reason I want to try this isn't because it's stupidity, it's because I need to know if I can minimize shutdown. There's people doing this, and they're getting gains and keeping them. That's my goal. Slow... sustainable gains. If I don't find out in the next 6 months if it works, I'll ditch the idea. Simple.

So my understanding of it is that Bill Roberts does have some scientific evidence to back this up. Just a google search away to find all that info. Whether or not it works in real life? I'm willing to find out. The premise is that I will need to get my androgens up FAST and sustain that for the two weeks. Because they're all orals, I'm removing the ester buildup problem. That's even present with propionate and acetate. AND I hate pinning. I can handle it once in a while, but... no way i'm pinning ED. Won't.

And thank you for your comment on the halo, Eric. I'll research my dosage a bit more. I haven't done halo yet, so I just went off the recommended dose.

SD is great and all, but... Ehh. I was thinking DMZ perhaps. The side-to-gains ratio is a bit more tolerable with DMZ I've heard. Perhaps I'm overthinking the liver hepatoxicity of SD. I was afraid to go with something too toxic, as I'm really trying to load up on the orals. But then again, 2 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[steakboy]

Decided to go with 30mg DMZ, 30mg Epi, and ~175mg(converted from 500mg "complex" or 4 tabs) 19-nor Andro (Decasterone). Going to take 15mg DMZ/Epi in the morning, Decasterone Pre-workout, and 15mg DMZ/Epi at night.

Looking forward to some killer night sweats.

 

[Eric160]

Decided to go with 30mg DMZ, 30mg Epi, and ~175mg(converted from 500mg "complex" or 4 tabs) 19-nor Andro (Decasterone). Going to take 15mg DMZ/Epi in the morning, Decasterone Pre-workout, and 15mg DMZ/Epi at night.

Looking forward to some killer night sweats.

i like it. hahaha im curious about the decasterone. but y no epi or dmz preworkout?

 

[steakboy]

i like it. hahaha im curious about the decasterone. but y no epi or dmz preworkout?

The epi has a decently long half life, so that should carry me through the day pretty well. DMZ though is a bit harsher, and I'm worried it'll tox me out too fast. If by next week I'm doing ok, i'll up it to 15mg 3x daily with one for preworkout.

I hear real good things about the 19-nor andro. Looking forward to my first workout today.

 

[Eric160]

i see alot of ppl run dmz at 45mg without problems. if u want u could just up the epi dose and not both i personally wouldnt even feel 30mg but it will def dry u out if the 19nor gives u any bloat

 

[ReyMan]

The epi has a decently long half life, so that should carry me through the day pretty well. DMZ though is a bit harsher, and I'm worried it'll tox me out too fast. If by next week I'm doing ok, i'll up it to 15mg 3x daily with one for preworkout.

I hear real good things about the 19-nor andro. Looking forward to my first workout today.

This is your dosing protocol for 2 on 4 off?

 

[ManBeast]

*sigh* despite our efforts to help you, you seem hellbent on this... good luck.

 

[akaVeritaS]

You don't want to be shut down? Pin and use hCG. Won't do that? Then you're going to be completely shut down.

This cycle is ludicrous. Sorry.

 

[xtraflossy]

I've seen this mentioned a few times over the years and sometimes by very respected members of AM.

Without addressing any other issues I'll just say your choice of compounds is poor for 2 reasons.

Epi takes like 3 weeks to kick in- you'll never reap the bennifits.
19-nor, while personally loving it and it IS a decent choice in this effort, MIGHT leave you having sexual issues after only 2 weeks especially since you'll need to dose compounds higher then "normal" anyways for a 2 weeker.

edit: your dosing of epi is also probably to low also (if you were going to run it). If it were me, I'd be like 40-60ish (sides permitting)

(This CAN work permitting the proper compounds, I've done it, albet the WORST possible way it would want to be done lol)
There are smarter people then myself here; I just felt compelled to throw my opinion in since there were not that many replies

 

[steakboy]

I've seen this mentioned a few times over the years and sometimes by very respected members of AM.

Without addressing any other issues I'll just say your choice of compounds is poor for 2 reasons.

Epi takes like 3 weeks to kick in- you'll never reap the bennifits.
19-nor, while personally loving it and it IS a decent choice in this effort, MIGHT leave you having sexual issues after only 2 weeks especially since you'll need to dose compounds higher then "normal" anyways for a 2 weeker.

edit: your dosing of epi is also probably to low also (if you were going to run it). If it were me, I'd be like 40-60ish (sides permitting)

(This CAN work permitting the proper compounds, I've done it, albet the WORST possible way it would want to be done lol)
There are smarter people then myself here; I just felt compelled to throw my opinion in since there were not that many replies

Awesome post sir. Reps.

I'll take your advice on the Epi and switch it out the next time around. I did up the dosage to 45 already. Any suggestions? :edit: also see below for the reason to use epi

Agreed, I may get the "deca" sides. 2 weeks isn't going to kill me. :edit: Also the epi was to counteract the possible bloat from this. I was hoping they would work together.

So far I've noticed increased energy in the gym. I'm not working strength right now, so I have no idea if that's increasing or not. I'm doing high volume. I have noticed I'm able to manage this without my CNS telling me "FU" in the middle of something. After the 70'th rep of something I would normally start falling over or get the strong urge to pass out/throw up. Now I only want to throw up.

I am trying to increase cardiovascular endurance as well, so I'm running/biking between workouts. Last night was fun... workout for an hour, drive down some protein and pineapple, waited 15 minutes then bust out some maximal heart rate cardio.

ManBeast

*sigh* despite our efforts to help you, you seem hellbent on this... good luck.​

Your efforts to help me? And they've been what? Telling me not to? Yeah real helpful. :thumbsdown:

There has been a few helpful posts here. This was not one of them.

akaVeritaS

You don't want to be shut down? Pin and use hCG. Won't do that? Then you're going to be completely shut down.

This cycle is ludicrous. Sorry.​

You didn't read about Bill Robert's 2 on 4 off. Whether you think it's valid or not isn't for you to decide... unless you try it. How about I try it and let you know? Would that change your mind? Probably not.

 

[xtraflossy]

Personally, I can't remember getting bloat from 19nor; however I do remember it was the diol version if that makes any difference.

When I did this (on accident - dating a girl in the navy and she was coming back earlier then expected balh blah... I ran MAx-LMG and Mega TRN like an idiot but at the time I was kinda trying NOT to have my junk working while she was away - at high doses -lol- Needless to say, I had plenty of disfunction that luckily cleared up after maybe 3 weeks - I usually run a hell of a PCT that compares to the fun of the cycle most time).

I did gain 4 lbs; keeping 3.5lbs after pct.

I'll let you be and have at since your already doing it.

 

[steakboy]

This is your dosing protocol for 2 on 4 off?

Sorry, yeah let me update my dosing:

3x 15mg Epi daily.
2x 15mg DMZ daily.
466mg 19-nor andro. (4 tabs for pre-workout) - thinking about upping to 5 tabs.

 

[steakboy]

My 2 weeks is nearly complete. And... Good news. I've actually GAINED weight and lost bodyfat. I don't think I've lost the percentage that I would have hoped, but I'm pleased with how I look after 2 weeks. The sides really didn't start coming in until about 2 days ago. Libido was effected negatively only at that point, had slightly itchy nips, and got some nasty back pumps. No night sweats, sleepless nights, or headaches. Things are going very well.

But... We all new that at these dosages I would see effects. What we're looking for is how well I'm able to bounce back. I'm starting D-Aspartic Acid today, and continuing throughout PCT. The D-Asp should increase LH, and hopefully wake the boys back up prior to finishing my cycle.

 

[rambofireball]

Subbed, this is an interesting technique I've read a little about but haven't seen any real world application. In to see how it treats you.

goodluck.

 

[ReyMan]

Sorry, yeah let me update my dosing:

3x 15mg Epi daily.
2x 15mg DMZ daily.
466mg 19-nor andro. (4 tabs for pre-workout) - thinking about upping to 5 tabs.

If you ran this as a straight forward cycle, the gains would be phenomenal. I would love to run an 8 week bridged cycle like that. Its good that you're making gains with your dosing protocol though!

 

[steakboy]

I'm not really in it for the "here and now" gains. If I can make 5 lean pounds of dense muscle, and KEEP all of it... shheeeeeiiiiitttt. I'll be happy. But we will see if this is worth it or not. Another few days and I'll know if things are normalizing.

And it looks like I came down with an inner ear infection. Don't know if this means anything but... It's REAL rare for me to get sick. I mean I get colds and stuff from time to time, but not this. The last time I took m-drol was like a year ago and I got sick as a dog in my 3rd week of it. I'd hate to see a pattern of this.

 

[xtraflossy]

I can't wait for numbers

The only thing I would have changed was splitting up the 19-nor. Worked best for me that way every time.