Anabolics and Overcoming Genetic Limits

[Jonny784]

I recently found an article addressing the genetic limitations of natural muscle development in males. Depending on factors such as height, training experience, and genetics, a male can only expect to reach a certain size naturally. They allegedly derived these figures and statistics from natural male body builders in their prime. For an example of the proposed limits, for me personally at 6 foot, my natural maximum weight would be around 205 lbs at 10% body fat.

Here's the link to the article: What's My Genetic Muscular Potential? | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Limiting out isn't a major issue for me currently, but I was just curious and wanted some input on the subject. Mainly I'm wondering about the effect of anabolics on overcoming genetic potential long term. It's definitely possible to exceed genetic limits with the use of anabolic steroids, but is it possible to keep those gains?

Here are my main questions:

1. If someone were to exceed their natural limits through anabolic use, would he be able to retain the lean body mass gained from the steroids through proper nutrition and training when consistently not on steroids? Of course it would be improbable to gain more muscle, but would it be possible to maintain?

2. If it's not possible, how quickly would you expect this person to lose their gains and return to their genetic potential? Let's say the individual is 20 lbs over their genetic limit. Talking ballpark numbers and speculation here.

I know these questions depend on several factors such as how far above the genetic potential one has grown, baseline testosterone levels, nutrition, etc. so I'm not looking for specifics. Assume ideal circumstances. Mainly just wanting some personal anecdotes on retaining gains long term. Has anyone overcome their genetic potential and found that they could only keep their muscle through continued cycling regardless of training and diet?

Anyway, just looking for any opinion so feel free to give your thoughts on the subject. Also, I thought genetic limitation was an interesting concept that would be worth sharing to the community.

 

[Jonny784]

Also, here's a dropbox link to an excel file with the equations built in if anyone wants to find their own supposed genetic potential.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46535820/Body Stats.xls

 

[chocolatemilk]

personal anectode on retaining gains longe term...

gained and lost with orals 4-6 weekers. couldn't sustain anything above 180lbs when off orals although i could get to 190ish+ on them.

after these ghey cycles i ran a really long test deca cycle with occaisonal spurts of SD (almost 20 weeks--5months) and reached 210lbs but after that cycle I can now sustain a natural 205 at about 10-11%bf

i'm starting to think the longer you can keep your body in an increased weight (anabolic) state, the higher your homeostasis weight (natural weight) can go up. and i believe this to be a very slow process which shows itself only on really long cycles.

according to the models posted, i should be around 195lbs 10% bf max as my potential, but i'm ten pounds heavier and the same bf% off steroids and believe it or not, sustain my weight and even make a little gains on 150g protien/day.

 

[csa2179]

how old are you, alot of this depends on your blood work. your body is going to want to naturally rebound back to its ideal size. but if you eat heavy and continue to train it will slow the process and you will more than likely keep your muscle for quite a bit of time.

but 205 at 10%bf is a big ass mother ****er! im 6'1-6'2 at 9%bf and im a fairly large guy. ive been trying to get to 205 for about a year now. thanks for the link this is cool

 

[ManBeast]

I am a believer that if you gain a moderate amount of muscle, and hold onto it for long enough, your body will adapt to it as your new normal amount and do its best to support it. I don't think this will ever apply to a pro BB, but to someone who is putting on 5-10 clean pounds a year over their max they shouldn't drop too much if they keep eating and training right. The biggest mistake people make when coming off of gear is overtraining. 1) you aren't training to gain like you were while on. 2) your body can't support that level of training. This leads to muscle loss due to overtaining faster than one can think.

ManBeast

 

[ManBeast]

GODDAMNIT MOOJUICE!!! STOP READING MY MIND LIKE GERBIL!!!

 

[Jonny784]

i'm starting to think the longer you can keep your body in an increased weight (anabolic) state, the higher your homeostasis weight (natural weight) can go up. and i believe this to be a very slow process which shows itself only on really long cycles.

Very well put. This also vibes well with the maxim that muscle gains made more slowly over a longer cycle are more likely to be retained after PCT. A similar principal at work I suppose. Thanks again for sharing your personal experience.

I am a believer that if you gain a moderate amount of muscle, and hold onto it for long enough, your body will adapt to it as your new normal amount and do its best to support it. I don't think this will ever apply to a pro BB, but to someone who is putting on 5-10 clean pounds a year over their max they shouldn't drop too much if they keep eating and training right.
ManBeast

And it appears ManBeast agrees with this sentiment. He just needs to type a little faster apparently. lol

 

[Jonny784]

GODDAMNIT MOOJUICE!!! STOP READING MY MIND LIKE GERBIL!!!

roflmao. sounds like you've got a reoccurring problem on your hands there MB. maybe give this a try:

 

[ManBeast]

I was eating!!!

Anyhoo, to expound a bit more on it. I think part of the "myth" about not holding gains comes from a few places. 1) high-bloat orals that blow you up fast. Again, just to use superdrol as an example, adding 20+ lbs to your frame in 4 weeks then hitting pct is not going to make it easy to hold onto, no matter how solid your pct is. Also despite the fact that compounds can't convert to estrogen, doesn't mean there won't be extra water/glycogen retention while on.

2) would be poor pcts. Anyone who doesn't consider PCT to be a part of the cycle (indeed the linchpin to holding gains), and doesn't spend as much effort into getting it right suppliment-wise, is going to be sorely disappointed with their cycle. In the last few years we've seen a myriad of OTC products come out that will help greatly during PCT, and indeed for some incredibly mild/short cycles could serve as a total pct (not for me ever though, YMMV). There is no reason not to approach restarting endogenous production and supporting a pro-anabolic/anti-catabolic environment during pct.

3) would be as I mentioned, overtraining while off cycle. I know most of us love and are addicted to the gym, we'd spend hours a day every day there if we could (not me honestly, but you understand where I'm going), but realistically if we are old enough to truly benefit from being on exogenous hormones, we are old enough that when those are taken away, our recovery time is drastically different than the young people in the prime of their natural hormones that we try and steer away from these things. When I'm not "on" I spend no more than 5 hours a week working in the gym, this doesn't include my warmup or cooldown cardio, but it does include working cardio. When on I'll bump this by an hour or two at max, because we still need time to recover for the anabolics to help us grow.

ManBeast

P.S. I only wear my tinfoil hat when i go to wal*mart, despite what my girl has to say about it

 

[Jonny784]

Alright, so as to spur on the conversation, let's say an individual undergoes a series of long duration cycles and grows above their natural limit by 30 pounds. Then for each cycle he hypothetically performs an ideal PCT protocol, eats a clean caloric excess, exercises consistently without overtraining, and thus maintains all of his on-cycle gains even six months down the road. In other words, an idealized situation.

Then for the next two years, he has maintained consistent nutrition and trained properly all without performing another cycle.
Do you think he could maintain his 30 lb muscle mass excess after two years without anabolic use?
Do you think he might lose 5 to 10 lbs of it but still be able to maintain most of it? Lol I'm just speculating entirely here.

I guess this is a similar situation to chocolatemilk's who was able to maintain a level 10 lbs over his proposed limit.
I suppose the likeliness of maintaining extra muscle mass over the genetic limit decreases as the amount of that extra muscle mass increases. 50 pounds excess might be impossible to retain naturally, while 20 lbs extra might be within reason.

Anyway, I still have 20 lbs of lean body mass to gain before I'm at my proposed limit, so it's not exactly a pressing issue for me personally. I just enjoy speculating on the topic to satisfy my own curiosity. Regardless, I appreciate everyone's replies. If someone has a personal story that relates to the topic, please feel free to share.

 

[ManBeast]

I'd say holding onto 20 of that should not be an issue at all. The only thing that could affect it severely would be andropause or something similarly drastic.

ManBeast

 

[heavylifter33]

I have to completely agree with chocomilk and dabeast. As usual lol.

From personal experience i've been able to raise my body's natural weight equilibrium. Ok no idea how to scientifically say that. After each anabolic cycle i'm able to raise my weight by 5-7 lbs. It doesn't seem like much, but do 2 a year and pack on 15 good lbs or more a year is pretty nice. Coming from my past, and having the hormonal deficiencies i have... anabolics are a God-send. Now that i have a better grasp on nutrition, i'm able to solidify the gains SO MUCH BETTER. I can eat at maintenance or even a tick under, and not go down past a certain weight. Total, i've come from 155 to 188. I'm 193 now, but 188 i think is my current weight maintenance level.

 

[JudoJosh]

Limiting out isn't a major issue for me currently, but I was just curious and wanted some input on the subject. Mainly I'm wondering about the effect of anabolics on overcoming genetic potential long term. It's definitely possible to exceed genetic limits with the use of anabolic steroids.

Here are my main questions:

1. If someone were to exceed their natural limits through anabolic use, would he be able to retain the lean body mass gained from the steroids through proper nutrition and training when consistently not on steroids? Of course it would be improbable to gain more muscle, but would it be possible to maintain?

I would say no you cannot. Eventually you will go back to baseline

 

[Jonny784]

I would say no you cannot. Eventually you will go back to baseline

Thanks for proposing an alternative opinion Josh. In all reality, this makes reasonable sense, and I've heard this said before. The body maintains a certain homeostasis at a certain natural testosterone level, and although it may take some time, it is arguable that it will eventually work to return to that natural balance without exogenous anabolics.

Are you saying this from personal experience or that of a friend's?
If so, how quickly did you notice that the gains were lost? A couple months? A year?

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Manbeast with his AM uniform on complete with nametag, while answering questions in anabolic section

 

[ManBeast]

Nah, I listen quite well actually warbird, but the hat and goggles are spiffy!

ManBeast

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Nah, I listen quite well actually warbird, but the hat and goggles are spiffy!

ManBeast

I just learned that anadrol is liver safe (at up to 16 weeks mind you) and no liver protection is needed for a cycle that involves dbol AND anadrol....oh and winny is the devil next time I'm covering MY fuqin ears! LOL.......

 

[Husker89]

I was stuck at 190 off of gear and 200 on and then did a 5 month cycle and now i am at 200-205 without gear. The biggest factor we havent talked about in imo is naturally trainging, i was 130 and got to 190 naturally and lifted for 5-6 years naturally. My diet which consists of literally sweet potatoes oatmeal steak tilapia brown rice and chicken has not change from on to off and i feek BETTER off. I am only 22 though.

Alright, so as to spur on the conversation, let's say an individual undergoes a series of long duration cycles and grows above their natural limit by 30 pounds. Then for each cycle he hypothetically performs an ideal PCT protocol, eats a clean caloric excess, exercises consistently without overtraining, and thus maintains all of his on-cycle gains even six months down the road. In other words, an idealized situation.

Then for the next two years, he has maintained consistent nutrition and trained properly all without performing another cycle.
Do you think he could maintain his 30 lb muscle mass excess after two years without anabolic use?
Do you think he might lose 5 to 10 lbs of it but still be able to maintain most of it? Lol I'm just speculating entirely here.

I guess this is a similar situation to chocolatemilk's who was able to maintain a level 10 lbs over his proposed limit.
I suppose the likeliness of maintaining extra muscle mass over the genetic limit decreases as the amount of that extra muscle mass increases. 50 pounds excess might be impossible to retain naturally, while 20 lbs extra might be within reason.

Anyway, I still have 20 lbs of lean body mass to gain before I'm at my proposed limit, so it's not exactly a pressing issue for me personally. I just enjoy speculating on the topic to satisfy my own curiosity. Regardless, I appreciate everyone's replies. If someone has a personal story that relates to the topic, please feel free to share.

 

[Husker89]

I see your point but disagree, the body is adaptable and is able to change especially if you are consistent. I would agree you cant hold onto everything but 50-60 percent i think you can.

I would say no you cannot. Eventually you will go back to baseline

 

[Husker89]

My doctor friend who was the head of tulane hospital of cardiology said "steroids permanently increase the # of muscle cells you have"

I see your point but disagree, the body is adaptable and is able to change especially if you are consistent. I would agree you cant hold onto everything but 50-60 percent i think you can.

 

[JudoJosh]

I see your point but disagree, the body is adaptable and is able to change especially if you are consistent. I would agree you cant hold onto everything but 50-60 percent i think you can.

Why do we take exogenous hormones for?

In order to make supraphysiological gains correct?

So what makes you think we can keep these gains when the very definition of suprephysiological gains are gains that could not have been made normally?

My doctor friend who was the head of tulane hospital of cardiology said "steroids permanently increase the # of muscle cells you have"

Ask you doctor friend for the PMIDs then

 

[Jonny784]

My doctor friend who was the head of tulane hospital of cardiology said "steroids permanently increase the # of muscle cells you have"

True. I didn't even consider that factor. The more nuclei you have in your muscle fiber, the more protein synthesis that takes place. If you've gained extra nuclei in your myofibrils through anabolic steroid use, you could retain some of that potential for muscle retention even off cycle. Of course, after a long enough time period, these myonuclei would eventually be lost as well. Good info though.

 

[Jonny784]

Well I've decided I'm just gonna have to put this genetic limit thing to the test. For science, of course.

Gonna hit 240 lbs at 8 % bf then come off the juice for a couple years to see what I retain. Shouldn't be hard at all.....

Won't take long either. Just give me about 10 years and I'll get back to you lol. :joke:

 

[Matthersby]

Great thread, Jonny. I hope it's not short-lived. I wonder if we can actually find someone who has done 6-7 solid cycles, discontinued all aas use, and maintained a respectable amount of what was gained for years. I fear Trt is our best bet for the longterm but Chocolatemilk's post has me hopeful.

 

[csa2179]

My doctor friend who was the head of tulane hospital of cardiology said "steroids permanently increase the # of muscle cells you have"

As your age increase the amount of muscle break down per year increases. so if your 40+ it will be alot harder to to keep your gains with out chemical assistance. if you are 22+ you would have no problem holding on to your gains for a long period of time. but they will slowly dissipate over a certain amount of time given your genetic make up.

i know you can influence this by altering chemicals in your body(especially if you are still developing). however at a certain age your body is pretty much set for deterioration and i don't think at that point you could significantly alter your chemical make up enabling you to hold on to said mass for extended periods of time(naturally).

i think it would be reasonable, assuming you eat properly and train, for you to keep your mass above natural levels for many years if you are in your mid 20's. From all the reading i have done i believe the battle starts in your mid thirties- early 40s

 

[Jonny784]

Ask you doctor friend for the PMIDs then

Yea there's nothing I could find that referred to permanent increases in myonuclei number after steroids were no longer taken.

Here's a study indicating that steroids potentially increase muscle size through hypertrophy and increased number of myofibrils, but it's not the type of setup I like to see for a research study. There's no real control group and it used self-reported histories. Still interesting though.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/1999/11000/Effects_of_anabolic_steroids_on_the_muscle_cells.6.aspx

 

[pyrobatt]

Off Topic kinda:A study on a competing website(sorry can't link cause the rules) suggest those who have been on anabolic's have increased muscle memory as an added goodie.On topic:I have kept about 13 lbs of my first cycle.2 lbs of fat but meh.On my 8th week into PCT I started making gains again.I believe you can keep gains.Look up jason english(big jays extreme fitness on youtube) hes been "clean" for 12 (i think)years and hes still rocking a semi lean 260.That's correct...2..6...zero!Hes fairly short so I know that his genetic potential has been surpassed.

 

[csa2179]

you could apply to the NSF for a grant, to do a study using your self as the subject. i have a few NSF projects i am currently involved with, however they are geological in nature. I think this could be a solid scientific study with many benefits to humanity. you just need to find some one with credentials to back your study (any university Kinesiology department). anti-aging is a hot topic in the health science field!

 

[csa2179]

Off Topic kinda:A study on a competing website(sorry can't link cause the rules) suggest those who have been on anabolic's have increased muscle memory as an added goodie.On topic:I have kept about 13 lbs of my first cycle.2 lbs of fat but meh.On my 8th week into PCT I started making gains again.I believe you can keep gains.Look up jason english(big jays extreme fitness on youtube) hes been "clean" for 12 (i think)years and hes still rocking a semi lean 260.That's correct...2..6...zero!Hes fairly short so I know that his genetic potential has been surpassed.

how do you know he has been off? in my opinion anything that looks unnatural is more than likely unnatural

 

[Jonny784]

Great thread, Jonny. I hope it's not short-lived. I wonder if we can actually find someone who has done 6-7 solid cycles, discontinued all aas use, and maintained a respectable amount of what was gained for years. I fear Trt is our best bet for the longterm but Chocolatemilk's post has me hopeful.

Thanks man. And yea I agree wholeheartedly. I would love to hear some more first hand experiences from someone on the issue along with the hypothetical opinions. Either TRT or youth might help keep testosterone at sufficient levels to at least help maintain or minimize the loss of gains over a few years. I'm sure someone on here fits the criteria. I'll bet there are some beasts lurking on this forum.

 

[Jonny784]

you could apply to the NSF for a grant, to do a study using your self as the subject. i have a few NSF projects i am currently involved with, however they are geological in nature. I think this could be a solid scientific study with many benefits to humanity. you just need to find some one with credentials to back your study (any university Kinesiology department). anti-aging is a hot topic in the health science field!

Hahaha that would be SICK! I'd totally participate. I go to a health science school and am in the doctorate program for pharmacology. If I could work with my department and get NSF funding to get HUGE, my life would be complete. It would be even better if I could increase the subject number and get a few friends on board too lol. Anyone want in? hahaha

 

[csa2179]

i would anonymously email a department head with your idea, especially if your in a doctorate program... it would be great for a dissertation

 

[pyrobatt]

how do you know he has been off? in my opinion anything that looks unnatural is more than likely unnatural

His words and hes not getting bigger at all through out his videos.He dose get chubbyer tho haha.But yes...his word is rather un trustworthy.Probably saying because of his "younger" viewers.If he is off the juice for that long and is still maintaining his gains it would be interesting.Agreed?

 

[csa2179]

yeah that would be awesome. scratch that, phenomenal. because that dude is huge. i wonder how many pull ups he can do in one set?

 

[pyrobatt]

yeah that would be awesome. scratch that, phenomenal. because that dude is huge. i wonder how many pull ups he can do in one set?

I have no idea haha.He was a pro bodybuilder and the way he thinks is "I'm not competing.why juice?"I'm guessing.The guy is very intense.Had a bunch of muscles repaired because of that.In his videos he explains his range of motion is very limited on the bench and it may be on pull ups I think.If there's hope for his gains staying,it means hope for us all.I do believe he used alot of "wet" bulkers(he was 275 at pro).I'm guessing they were not orals though as he was old skool!Hes also at or above his 50's.Quite impressive.

 

[Jonny784]

Forget about retaining gains long term without steroids for a minute.

Is anyone here over their genetic limit while on steroids or just cycled recently?

There's got to be someone.