Urgent PCT Issue...

[cobain67]

I finished my cycle 10 days ago and have since lost all my gains, along with more weight. I am still losing weight, even though I am eating the same, training the same and taking Nolva and 6-OXO. Is it somehow possible that my body won't synthesize protein to rebuild my muscles after a workout, therefore causing the muscle to shrink each workout and just break down and eat itself? Please offer some help.. What could the problem be??

 

[darius]

What did your cycle consist of? How long was it?

 

[cookmic5]

Is it somehow possible that my body won't synthesize protein to rebuild my muscles after a workout, therefore causing the muscle to shrink each workout and just break down and eat itself?

Sounds a little extreme. I have a serious doubt that your body somehow decided that it wasn't going to work anymore and let you wither away. How much/what kind of gains are we talking about here? and as asked above, what kind of cycle (PH, dosage, cycle length...) Finally, what kind of program are you on (a lot of cardio, no cardio, reps, sets)??

With no information I would offer the guess that an increase in food would have been in order. Did you increase calorie intake for the cycle? keep it the same? increase for PCT? keep it the same?

I would tend to believe that nutrition is at the heart of this.

cm5

 

[cobain67]

the cycle consisted of the following:

weeks 1-2: 4ml 2x/day LGP Hydroxy-Test
week 3: 4ml 2x/day LGP Hydroxy-Test + M5AA 20mg/day
week 4: 10mg M1t + VPX Syngex II

that was all...

I have kept the cals the same and even reduced the amount of cardio. I gained 10lbs, lost 15 and counting... It seems that the day after I lift I look smaller and I usually lose the most then..

 

[BigVrunga]

I dont have experience with any of those compounds, so I dont know what's going on chemically in your system.
Did you have any testicular shrinkage?
How's your libido?
Have you lost any strength?
Are you feeling overly tired, are your muscles taking noticeably longer to recover?

If something was going on in your body and you couldnt synthesize muscle, it would figure that you'd be weak and sore as hell of an extended length of time following a workout.

For now, try upping your cals by 500/day and taking a couple days off. Get 8-10 hours of sleep a day. When at the gym, use the same weight your finished your cycle with, but cut the volume back. A 12 set workout should be enough.

Anyone else have any ideas whats going on here?

BV

 

[darius]

Hopefully it was just a mest up cycle (as in you didn't do something right like nutrition, etc) and the rest being mental. Imo, follow BV's advice and see what happens.

 

[lancelot]

you need to increase your cals, reduce volume+days of lifting, less cardio, same intensity, take a creatine product, and lots of rest. YOur first week in PCT is most important IMO. you shouldn't do any cardio and don't lift or lift only 1-2X that 1st week. Increase volume and cardio as the weeks pass and never attempt to cut during PCT. Does any of this apply to why you are losing so much weight?

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

right on lanelot. during pct you body does not use the calories as efficient as when your on. so it takes more calories to maintain. I'm a hard gainer so I eat the most when pct. and as you nat. test starts to come back you can tapper off. this could be your problem.

 

[BigVrunga]

Definately up the cals. Ive only done a BDC T1 cycle, but when I came off and my weight started to slip, i went from 4000 to 4500 cals a day (40/40/20). Weight stabilized and after a 2 day 'mini-crash', strength started to climb as my natural test came back.

BV

 

[cobain67]

my libido's fine and I have no testicular shrinkage. As for strength goes, I have maintained all my lifts (bench dropped a bit, and so has my deadlift) since PCT, which is kindof strange, because I am shrinking and am lighter than when I started. Also, a side note to this is that today I woke up with a freakin' sore throat and lethargy along with a runny nose and a headache.. Do PHs weaken the immune system?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

my libido's fine and I have no testicular shrinkage. As for strength goes, I have maintained all my lifts (bench dropped a bit, and so has my deadlift) since PCT, which is kindof strange, because I am shrinking and am lighter than when I started. Also, a side note to this is that today I woke up with a freakin' sore throat and lethargy along with a runny nose and a headache.. Do PHs weaken the immune system?

If your lifts are the same, you're not losing muscle. Do you looke more hard and defined? It's physically impossible for you to lose muscle and maintaing strength (especially to a 15lb tune) b/c your muscles are what make you strong, lol.

It doesn't sound like something to worry about, IMHO, if you're just as strong as you were before. HOw are your measurements compared to before cycle, last week of cycle, and post cycle?

Your immune system can be weaker, too. But as much as it sounds like you worry, I'd be more concerned it was the worrying weakening your I.S.

 

[BigVrunga]

my libido's fine and I have no testicular shrinkage. As for strength goes, I have maintained all my lifts (bench dropped a bit, and so has my deadlift) since PCT, which is kindof strange, because I am shrinking and am lighter than when I started. Also, a side note to this is that today I woke up with a freakin' sore throat and lethargy along with a runny nose and a headache.. Do PHs weaken the immune system?

Yeah they can but its usually when you first start using them. (ie 'The 1-test flu', etc). How do you look? You may have just dropped a bunch of water weight.

 

[cobain67]

I look rather "deflated." My measurements have gone down slightly, though. I must say, I do look more defined in the face though..

 

[cobain67]

ok, its getting worse now. I woke up this morning another pound lighter, and through this I am actually gaining BF. Are my Test levels so low that it causes me to just lose muscle after each wkout? Because, honestly, I just increased my calories to 5000 yesterday.. I have gained some BF around my midsection from such high cals, but i look real small, still have the strength though... What should I do?

 

[Methyl9]

Perhaps go see a Doc, tell me what you been using and all that? He might have an answer.


Sorry, cant give you any real advice.

 

[DR.D]

I look rather "deflated." My measurements have gone down slightly, though. I must say, I do look more defined in the face though..

Sounds like you were really bloated and now you're losing water. You can use creatine to prop your losses, it's really not good to end a cycle on methyls, at least one like m1t

 

[MF210]

Even if it was mainly water gains, he shouldn't be drop all the gains plus 5 additional pounds.

You definitely need to increase calories like it is your job. Also if you were working out 5-6days a week on the cycle, cut it down to 4 days a week allowing your body to recover.

 

[cobain67]

something has come up.... my boys are shrinking... libido is no more.. wtf?

 

[BigVrunga]

Sounds like you're shut down hard bro. Like DrD said, its not a good idea to end a cycle on methyls. 1-test is suppresive enough on its own, and finishing 3 weeks of 1-test with a week of M1T probably isnt a good idea. (even though 4 weeks of androgen use shouldnt be all that drastic). Everybody's body is different, yours might not be able to bounce back easily.

If your diet was in order and you had proper PCT, you really shouldnt be having these symptoms. I would look into getting some HCG or, better yet, go see a doc. There might be something going on with your endocrine system that you're only going to find with a blood test.

BV

 

[kwyckemynd00]

.....Because, honestly, I just increased my calories to 5000 yesterday.. I have gained some BF around my midsection from such high cals, but i look real small, still have the strength though... What should I do?

Ok, this really doesn't make any sense, to me atleast. If you're keeping your strength you HAVE to have the same amount of muscle, unless by chance your nervous system just became so efficient that it compensates for the loss in muscle :blink:, which I doubt.

Gaining BF% @ 5000cals doesn't sound abnormal to me. But losing weight while doing so does.

Did you keep track of your measurements before, during, and after your cycle. Those should be the real indicators of whether you really are losing LBM.

 

[cobain67]

heres a little update:

all through the day today, my boys have been aching occasionally and my libido is kindof up real high.. Is this because of the Endotest? or are things just starting up again? Weight has maintained for the last 3 days, in fact, I actually gained some weight, even though I lowered my calories down significantly.. I hope this is a sign of things normalizing once again.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Definately sounds like a good sign But, if you have to take a product to get yourself working again, that's still kinda funny.

You may want to invest in some HCG like others have been suggesting and maybe go see a doctor. Also, try to keep insurance out of it if you do (i.e. go see a different doc than normal and you should probably pay cash) because they'll sure as hell report that your insurance company.

Also, BoBo seems to be the nutritional and supplemental genius of the board (among others), maybe you can ask him in his section or PM him or something.

 

[jimmypop13]

I was gonna do another cycle of M1T but I got such a bad shut down when I took it a few months ago so I'd like to get some HCG but have no clue where I could get it at. There is a site that sells it but it's pretty expensive and I'd have no idea how to put it in a solution. any help or woudl i just have ot learn? thanks
-Chris

 

[Scottyo]

Sounds to me like you have no clue what your doing. Not to be a dick, but thats just my impression. You seem panicky and unsure of how to treat your body whatsoever. You gained water weight on cycle, and probably were not eating enough to gain muscle. A question for you...were you gaining muscle/weight prior to the cycle?
What are your stats and what dosage of nolva and 6-oxo did you use?
give more info, get more help.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

It does seem very plausible to me that he retained a ton of water weight (probably not drinking nearly enough water) and burned body fat (probably not high enough carb calories "on cycle" for your body type, therefore when you stop you could have maintained LBM, but your weight could be below the level it was at when you started because you dropped off all of the excess water weight and your BF% dropped. 4 weeks of M1T shoudl hardly give more than 4 or 5 LEAN LBS. DBol will give you 8 if you're lucky. So, if you burned off about 2 or 3% BF that could easily be your culprit.

I've never taken AAS (I don't feel quite educated enough yet) have taken once cycle of 4AD/1Test, and cannot be considered an expert by any means, but I do my research and I personally have a saying, which in short is, if you don't know EXACTLY what it is and EXACTLY what it can do for you (pros and cons) then do not take it!

So, Scottyo may have an unpleasant but true point there. Anyway, do you have an update to your condition? If your strength is still up then I cannot image any possible reason that you can believe that you are losing lean mass. So let us know.

 

[DR.D]

I've never taken AAS (I don't feel quite educated enough yet) have taken once cycle of 4AD/1Test, and cannot be considered an expert by any means, but I do my research and I personally have a saying, which in short is, if you don't know EXACTLY what it is and EXACTLY what it can do for you (pros and cons) then do not take it!

You are very wise to have this attitude! It can keep you alive, healthy, and effective. But be aware that you have used steroids. 4AD and 1-T are AAS, but you have used your wisdom well.

Cob, I don't know your background, and we'll all try and help, but listen to Kwych and adopt his attitude. The difference between winners and losers is that winners always have a plan B for anything that could go wrong.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

You are very wise to have this attitude! It can keep you alive, healthy, and effective. But be aware that you have used steroids. 4AD and 1-T are AAS, but you have used your wisdom well.

Cob, I don't know your background, and we'll all try and help, but listen to Kwych and adopt his attitude. The difference between winners and losers is that winners always have a plan B for anything that could go wrong.

He, he. I understand that 1-Test is a steroid. I just have become accustomed to the common online bber slang in which 1-Test is classified under the PH list b/c it's not on the DSHEA :think: Last I checked it didn't require any conversion and occurs naturally in the body...sounds like a steroid to me

I'm also fully aware that 4AD as well as all PH's are PH's for the reason that they convert directly or indirectly into steroids, whether it be 4AD -> ~15% Testosterone or otherwise.

It's just at the levels at which I took them (1400mg/week 1-Test Transdermal, and 1500mg/week 4AD transdermal) I understand that I got only a small fraction of what the average "gear" cycle consists of.

I.E. 1400mg/week 1-Test gives me 420mg/week 1-Test if I'm lucky enough to get 30% bioavailability w/ the transdermal and the 1500mg/week 4AD will yield a measely 67.5 mg/week Testosterone (seems that's almost a negligible amout which confuses me as to whether or not the conversion rate is only 15% 4AD->Test :think: My libido shot up and I had no lethargy, so I believe I must have had a better conversion rate than that. Anyway, I digress I guess that sums up what I mean by saying that if you don't know what it is or what it does, don't take it

Anyway, thanks for the kind words Dr. D. (I hope to be a Dr.--or I will be anyway--myself one day. Are you really a Dr.? If so, of what? I'm the curious type ) Also, sorry for hijacking your thread Cobain I hope all goes well for you.

 

[cobain67]

9/20/04 - An Update

Well, things have leveled out a bit for me, my weight has stabilized and I have since put on a pound or two. I experienced some testicular aching and the boys are back to size. Something happened last night though, I woke up in the middle of the night with an erection and I have been getting slight erections throughout the day. Is this normal, or what :\ I am currently on day 16 of PCT and have adopted Max-OT as my training method. I lowered cals a slight amount and have seemed to maintain thus far. I would like to note that since PCT, my Barbell Curls have increased 5lbs and my shoulder press recently rose 5lbs (yesterday). I am starting to get a libido again, which is nice.. I was freaking out there for a while... I just hope things continue in the right direction. Oh, I added SAN Endotest, do you think this is the cause of the "spike" in recovery lately?

 

[DR.D]

Anyway, thanks for the kind words Dr. D. (I hope to be a Dr.--or I will be anyway--myself one day. Are you really a Dr.? If so, of what? I'm the curious type ) Also, sorry for hijacking your thread Cobain I hope all goes well for you.

You'll be a great doc! Curiosity is what it takes. I'm not a doctor, although I'm told I should have been. I majored in nuclear biophysics w/ a minor in chemistry, but medicinal pharmacology has always been a hobby. Theoretical metaphysics is my specialty.

 

[Lakevillethor]

You'll be a great doc! Curiosity is what it takes. I'm not a doctor, although I'm told I should have been. I majored in nuclear biophysics w/ a minor in chemistry, but medicinal pharmacology has always been a hobby. Theoretical metaphysics is my specialty.

Indeed. Doctor D knows his ****. I myself have a major in electrical engineering with a minor in biochemistry but I don't have near the experience with androgens that Dr. D has. Anyway, diols bond to the androgen receptor too. This is something that is often times overlooked. Everyone talks about the conversion to the active metabolite being necessary --- this is not necessarily true as the diol, on its own, has anabolic properties. This, in my opinion, is why 1-AD works so well -- it's active metabolite is anabolic as hell while the diol form, the form that you ingest, is also anabolic. The diol version obviously has trouble being absorbed orally.

I don't know how this relates to this thread but I thought I would mention it as I continually see dudes post info about how the conversion is necessary.

 

[bulkmuscle]

if you only gained 10lbs i would theorize it was all water weight. i put on 10lbs of water weight from m1t/4-ad during my cycle.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Cobain, we're glad to hear it

Indeed. Doctor D knows his ****. I myself have a major in electrical engineering with a minor in biochemistry but I don't have near the experience with androgens that Dr. D has. Anyway, diols bond to the androgen receptor too. This is something that is often times overlooked. Everyone talks about the conversion to the active metabolite being necessary --- this is not necessarily true as the diol, on its own, has anabolic properties. This, in my opinion, is why 1-AD works so well -- it's active metabolite is anabolic as hell while the diol form, the form that you ingest, is also anabolic. The diol version obviously has trouble being absorbed orally.

I don't know how this relates to this thread but I thought I would mention it as I continually see dudes post info about how the conversion is necessary.

Well, ya learn something new everyday I didn't know the Diol bonds to the androgen receptor. That would explain why I had such noticable results from the 4AD in my stack. The other numbers just didn't add up, so now i feel like I've got a bit of closure

Glad to have such educated folks such as yourself and Dr. D. around to keep me on my toes and to keep me informed I'll probably major in either Pharmacological Chemistry or Bioengineering. I'm not quite sure which field would be a better one to be in just in case I have to work for a year if I don't get accepted to Med. School right off. I'm sure the Bioengineering would probablly be the better major, it is afterall a "Pre-med" major. Ha, ha. If you guys have any input, I'd love to hear it

Once again, sorry Cobain, didn't mean to hijack the thread

 

[BigVrunga]

It's just at the levels at which I took them (1400mg/week 1-Test Transdermal, and 1500mg/week 4AD transdermal) I understand that I got only a small fraction of what the average "gear" cycle consists of.

I.E. 1400mg/week 1-Test gives me 420mg/week 1-Test if I'm lucky enough to get 30% bioavailability w/ the transdermal and the 1500mg/week 4AD will yield a measely 67.5 mg/week Testosterone (seems that's almost a negligible amout which confuses me as to whether or not the conversion rate is only 15% 4AD->Test My libido shot up and I had no lethargy, so I believe I must have had a better conversion rate than that. Anyway, I digress I guess that sums up what I mean by saying that if you don't know what it is or what it does, don't take it

I think 4AD has some anabolic properties on its own...my only experience with androgens is 1test/4AD in the same ratio as you have done - and believe me I felt that 4Ad kicking in.

And even though this may only be a 'fractional amount' of a 'real cycle', I made awesome gains in strength and mass and kept it all. 1test/4AD is definately the real deal, as Im sure anyone who has done a cycle of it with proper diet/training will agree.

Cobain - take the advice of the good people here! Good to hear things are stabilizing for you. The spontaneous woods you spoke of are probably your hormones levels trying to stabilize - think back when youre test levels were all crazy as a teenager

BV

 

[cobain67]

9/22/04 - A Disturbing Update

Well, these last two days haven't gone well in regards to recovery. First of all I can't get hard for my Girlfriend, which is really embarrasing... Second of all, I have gained some BF.. I have no libido... what is going on here? is this normal?

 

[BigVrunga]

Sounds like your test levels have dropped and possibly your estrogen levels are higher then they should be.

Bro, if you've tried proper PCT and you're still having problems, then either you're shutdown *really* hard or youre not doing something right. You dont know what's going on with your body, do yourself a favor and go see a doc.

BV

 

[dingobite]

Same here on m1t puts water on me like a whale i uselly hit the max lbs you can get in a short amount of time.

More endurance seems to be the only thing i get out of m1t also.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

9/22/04 - A Disturbing Update

Well, these last two days haven't gone well in regards to recovery. First of all I can't get hard for my Girlfriend, which is really embarrasing... Second of all, I have gained some BF.. I have no libido... what is going on here? is this normal?

Have you done anything different to make this happen. There is no reason for your test levels to be rising and falling, etc, etc. You have to have done something different, IMHO.

EDIT: I read something about Max-OT, IMHO, Max-OT is way too hard on your system when a recovery is going like yours. Probably too taxing for PCT in general.

Are you working out? If you are, you should stop for a week.

And maybe you should see a doc and have your test levels checked. It'll cost a few $$, but hey, maybe you can get some test out of it

 

[cobain67]

9/23/04 - An Update

Well, last night was weird. I had a wet dream last night and woke up this morning feeling real upbeat and horny for my girl... Do you think my hormones are just fluctuating? because yesterday I felt like **** and today I feel wonderful. Hey, maybe the ZMA is kicking in or something.. Share your thoughts.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'm no Dr., but I see no reason that your hormones should fluctuate to such an extent on a near naily basis that you can go from wet dreamin' to limp as a 90 year old man. It doesn't make any sense that the hormones would be produced at such an extreme rate and then disappear just as fast. I don't know the 1/2 Life of Test produced by the body, but I'm sure that since you produce something like 7mg/day it's fairly long. Maybe someone with more knowledge can help, but as far as I'm concerned, it sounds weird. Have you been getting good sleep, depressed, stressed, what? I would be faster to believe that a factor like stress or something woulld cause your body to act that way before I'd believe in extreme fluctuations of hormones being produced by the body.

 

[cobain67]

09/23/04 - Night Update

I forgot to mention that a few days ago my nads became larger again.. I guess there was some shrinkage. Now that the boys are back-to-size, what exactly does this mean? Am I fully recovered? or has my Nat test production simply begun again? BTW I have some libido, but I can't get hard very easily anymore.. any thoughts appreciated..

 

[BigVrunga]

I think your trying to over-analyze the situation. Sounds to me like you just didnt do something right during/after your cycle and you're just recovering from a PC crash. Give it a few weeks. If symptoms persist, GO SEE A DOCTOR.

BV