cutting cycle with clen/eca, oxandrolone & andriol please help
- 09-13-2004, 03:11 AM
cutting cycle with clen/eca, oxandrolone & andriol please help
I startet my first clen/ec cycle on monday, doin 2 weeks on clen, two weeks off. in the off im using ec. i started with 2 clen an mo, tu, we, than 3 on thu, fr, then i will look at the sides, if they ar tollerable i continue to go up with the dose.
im doin my early morning hiit-style 3-5 x per week and using a specified version of hst 4-6 times per week.
Now i read an postingabout oxandrolone. And i was thinking to make an upgrade my clen/ec with oxas (say 30-40mg/d) and andriol (i have al lot and dont want to throw it away) at 240-280mg ed. what do you think about this? cycle length shoud be approx. ( i know i have asked a question like this on an other thread, but please help)
30 Days, then using Clom for pct.
The whole would look like this:
1. week clen 2/2/2/3/3/4/4
2. week clen 5/5/5/6/6/6/6
3. week day 1 & 2 off 3-7 ec 25mg 3xd with 250mg C
4. week ec 25mg 3xd with 250mg C
5. week clen 5/5/5/6/6/6/7 + 30/40mg Oxandrolone ed + 240/280mg Andriol
6. week clen 7/7/8/8/8/8/8 + 30/40mg Oxandrolone ed + 240/280mg Andriol
7. week day 1 & 2 off 3-7 ec 25mg 3xd with 250mg C + 30mg Oxandrolone ed + 240/280mg Andriol (only the ec will be off)
8. week ec 25mg 3xd with 250mg C + 30mg Oxandrolone ed + 240/280mg Andriol
9. week pct: day 1 300mg clom, day 2. 250mg day 3. 200mg day 4. - 7. 100mg
10 week pct 50mg ed
11 week pct 50mg ed
12 week pct 50mg ed
13 week pct 50mg ed
16 week pct 25mg ed
due to a job change i have only time till end of oct. to stay on andriol/oxas, than i have to move to another city, and with new job, new house i dont know what my training will be. For PCT is ist better to take clom or would it be better to take nolva?
- 09-15-2004, 10:03 PM
It's an intresting strategy, it could work. For PCT, use Clomid, but I don't really think you'll need 6 weeks of it for what you are talking about using.
09-16-2004, 01:37 AM
First thankx for your comment,
I was thinking to take Nolvadex instead of clomid, its cheaper an i can get it easier. What do you think?
How long should the PCT go?
09-16-2004, 05:57 AM
It's just my opinion, but I'm glad to try and help. I only said clomid because it's less toxic and more effective for PCT. You can sub. nolva but it takes about twice the dose to be effective. It's too toxic to front load too, so I'd start PCT about 5 days early with nolva @ 100mg and go for about 2 weeks, then 2 weeks @ 50. You could go another 2 at the same or lower dose if needed. The cycle doesn't look too suppressive, but I've never used adriol to be honest. Maybe I'm underestimating it.
09-16-2004, 01:47 PM
Did you get the nolvadex and clomid mixed up her bro? Or am I misreading this?Originally Posted by DR.D
Nolvadex is better for PCT and less toxic I though
09-17-2004, 05:58 AM
No, it's more toxic and less effective. Try 150mg of Clomid and compare it to 100mg Tamox. You could take more, but it starts to get pretty nasty. Clomid has more mental sides, but is nicer to the liver and a better test booster.Originally Posted by Skye
09-18-2004, 02:09 AM
I read that it qould be better to take an eanti e whlie on this cycle. what do you think? what kind of anti e? i read about fermara, is there something else, if i can´t get it?
Pleas help and answer me and how long should i do my PTC? are three weeks of nolvadex enough? what dosages please help.
Im now at the end of the first two weeks of clen with a top dose of 140mcg, im not shaking as bad as the beginning, but i feel nothing, i have not lost a gramm or a percent of BF. my diet ist pretty ok, my training regioment is for me ok and im throwing in a few HIIT-cardio sessions. but the results is nearly zero. my weight went up from 84,6kg at 22,4% (with a tanita scale) to 85,9kg at 22,0%.
09-18-2004, 02:30 AM
I have found this to be completely the opposite. I have also read that mg:mg nolvadex is stronger. Nolvadex at 40mg daily worked wonders for me during post cycle when compared to using 150mg of clomid.Originally Posted by DR.D
Here is some info from Swale, an MD:
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM's at the same time.
09-19-2004, 12:22 PM
Size, we all share the same physiology, but there are major differences in the response of individuals to various drugs. 40mg Tamox for PCT is not that bad, but I would require about 3x that to equal 150mg Clom. Clomid 'feels' more toxic for sure, but I usually can't even tell when I'm on Tamox, if the doses are low enough. Never the less, I have read so much concerning the toxicity of these various agents over the years, I must still favor Clomid. Actually, I favor toremifene, but it's been very hard to find lately. Below is a PUBMED article that offers some food for thought on Tamox:
Carcinogenesis. 1997 Feb;18(2):303-13.
Clastogenic and aneugenic effects of tamoxifen and some of its analogues in hepatocytes from dosed rats and in human lymphoblastoid cells transfected with human P450 cDNAs (MCL-5 cells).
Styles JA, Davies A, Davies R, White IN, Smith LL.
Medical Research Council Laboratories, Toxicology Unit, University of Leicester, UK.
Tamoxifen and its analogues 4-hydroxytamoxifen, toremifene, 4-hydroxytoremifene, clomifene and droloxifene were tested for clastogenic effects in a human lymphoblastoid cell line (MCL-5) expressing elevated native CYP1A1 and containing transfected CYP1A2, CYP2A6, CYP2E1 and CYP3A4 and epoxide hydrolase and in a cell line containing only the viral vector (Ho1). MCL-5 or Ho1 cells were incubated with 4-hydroxytamoxifen, 4-hydroxytoremifene, clomifene or droloxifene and the incidence of micronuclei estimated. With MCL-5 cells there was an increase in micronuclei with 4-hydroxytamoxifen, 4-hydroxytoremifene and clomifene but not with droloxifene. With Ho1 cells only 4-hydroxytamoxifen and 4-hydroxytoremifene caused an increase in micronuclei. MCL-5 cells were incubated with tamoxifen, 4-hydroxytamoxifen, toremifene, droloxifene, clomifene or diethylstilbestrol (0.25-10 microg/ml) for 48 h and subjected to 3 h treatment with vinblastine (0.25 microg/ml) to arrest cells in metaphase. The incidence of cells with chromosomal numerical aberrations (aneuploidy) was increased in cells treated with tamoxifen, 4-hydroxytamoxifen, toremifene, clomifene and diethylstilbestrol but not droloxifene. The frequency of cells with structural abnormalities (excluding gaps) was increased in cells treated with tamoxifen and toremifene but not 4-hydroxytamoxifen, clomifene, droloxifene or diethylstilbestrol. The clastogenic activities of tamoxifen (35 mg/kg), toremifene (36.3 mg/kg), droloxifene (35.2 mg/kg) and diethylstilbestrol (25 mg/kg) were compared in groups of four female Wistar rats. Each chemical was dissolved in glycerol formal, administered as a single dose by gavage and hepatocytes isolated by collagenase perfusion 24 h later. The cells were cultured in the presence of epidermal growth factor (40 ng/ml) for 48 h, colchicine (10 microg/ml) being added for the final 3 h of incubation. At least 100 chromosomal spreads were examined from each animal for the presence of numerical and structural abnormalities. The incidences of aneuploidy following treatment were: tamoxifen 81%, toremifene 46%, droloxifene 9.6%, diethylstilbestrol 45.7%, vehicle control 5.3%. The incidences of chromosomal structural abnormalities excluding gaps were: tamoxifen 4.3%, toremifene 0.8%, droloxifene 0.5%, diethylstilbestrol 0.8%, control 0.5%. The incidence of chromosomal structural aberrations excluding gaps in the treated animals was not statistically significantly different from controls except in the tamoxifen-treated group. Tamoxifen (35 mg/kg per os) and toremifene (36.3 mg/kg per os) were dosed to rats for 4 weeks and chromosomal spreads made from hepatocytes. The incidences of aneuploidy were: tamoxifen 94%, toremifene 57%, control 6.5%. The incidences of chromosomal aberrations excluding gaps were: tamoxifen 12%, toremifene 1%, control 0.5%. The incidence of tamoxifen-induced chromosomal structural abnormalities was significantly elevated compared with control levels. The results demonstrate that tamoxifen and toremifene are the only two drugs tested in the study that cause chromosomal structural and numerical aberrations in vitro and tamoxifen is the only drug that induces both these effects in rat liver cells stimulated to divide in culture following oral dosing. Since chromosomal mutations require cell division for their manifestation and tamoxifen is the only compound of those tested that causes hyperplasia in the rat liver, chromosomal aberrations and aneuploidy in the rat liver would only be expected to occur following treatment with tamoxifen alone, although aneuploidy could be induced by toremifene in conjunction with a promoter such as phenobarbitone.
PMID: 9054622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
09-19-2004, 01:14 PM
Dr. D....I have read numerous studies on the topic; we have probably read much of the same material. I will end it here rather than move this thread in a completely different direction.
09-20-2004, 01:04 AM
nice of you tp guys to ignore me and my questions completly. Or could you answer them? How long PCT and at what dosages?
09-20-2004, 01:31 AM
Look tough guy, Size and I have already told you. Noboby else had even touched your thread for days, and I took the time to answer so show a little courtesy and read the f'ing answer before you ask the same question again. Kkkkk?.
09-20-2004, 01:58 AM
Do some research. It is obvious just from Dr.D and myself's posts that we have a disagreement on PCT. Howver, I can guarantee that we would both agree that one needs to educate oneself and not simply do what an individual on a message board suggests.
One needs to really grasp the subject and understand exactly what one is going to do to the body. These drugs are not candy.
About you cycle, I think it is okay. Make sure your spread out your andriol dosing. Be observant of any occular disturbances when using clomid, I wish you luck and I hope you achieve your goals.
09-20-2004, 03:34 AM
excuse it was not ment as en insult. my english is a little bit poor. i did a lot of research and exactly this is the problem for me.
one says one thing, the next the complete opposite and i don´t know what to do.
Here in Germany they tell you to youse clomid fpr six week. frontload with 300mg one day one, then six days at 200mg, 7 days at 150, 7days 100, 7 days 50, 14 days 25mg. Nolvadex: 7 days 80mg, 7 days 60mg, 14 days 40mg, 14 days 20mg. thats here in Germany.
On american board i read to not use more then 100mg of clomid, three weeks, first week at 50mg, second week 100mg, third week 50mg.
Im very confused.
xcuse a second time.
think that i will try and see, what happens.
09-20-2004, 12:21 PM
Your english is fine.Originally Posted by nidan
Honestly, I would not want to take clomid for 6 consecutive weeks. Therefore, I would choose to only use it for 3 or 4 weeks. During the course I would decrease the amount each week.
09-24-2004, 01:00 AM
Ok bro´s me again.
I have to redo my planing. Using 25mg ec 3x ed i felt NOTHING NADA, so now im at 50mg E 300mg C and stil feeling nothing :-(.
Now im thinking of doing this:
day 1-30 oxa 40mg ed
day 1-30 andriol 280mg ed
day 1-14 clen 120/140 mcg ed
day 16-30 ec(a) 150mg ed
thats like the first post.
now the news:
im thinking of throwing in an anti-e.
my first thought was 2,5mg femara ed BUT its way to expensive (they ask 220 EURO for 30 Tabs.)
So im thinking of using Armidex or nolva day 1-45(?) at what dosages?
and day 1-30 T3 starting at 25mcg and ramping up slowly to perhaps 100/125mg. Could you help me here too?
As PCT i wuld like to use nolva or clom for 3 weeks. Clom only if i have to use nolva as the anti-e during the cycle.
Suggestions? Its pressing, cause id like to start at Oct. 1st.
Thanks for your help
09-24-2004, 01:39 AM
Only use an ant-e if it is necessary. With arimidex, typically .5mg every other day is enough. With nolvadex, 10mg daily typically works well.
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