PCT-- Nolva AND Clomid??

Bas4Lizzife

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Bout to run m1t/4ad for 30 days and am preparing to order my post cycle materials. Most recommend Nolva and will be running this regardless for post cycle, but a lot of people swear by clomid. since its dirt cheap (3g for $10 from custom), what are the advantages to running this post cycle in addition to nolva?
 

NPursuit

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Nolvadex is better at stimulating test production. Nolva also generally has less side effects. You can't go wrong with Clomid, it's just IMO and many others, Nolva is the better choice.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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I was told running them both would not be any better than running one at a proper dose.
 
ryansm

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Ya there really is no need to run both. Clomid has a lot of extra baggage with it, just stick to the nolva.
 
DR.D

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nolva is far more toxic, especially to your liver, and plants bad seeds down the road
 
jas123

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nolva is far more toxic, especially to your liver, and plants bad seeds down the rode
By "plants bad seeds down the road", are you refering to the liver toxicity or something else? I thought the general consensus around here was that it wasn't too bad at all.
 
DR.D

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Sorry Rogue, that only happens if you life in Oklahoma. I'm in Texas. Close but no cigar! :lol:

Jas, the consensus is that Tamox isn't too bad, but that's just cause it's cheap, effective and readily available. If people really knew, they would be more careful. Some of the highest enzyme numbers I ever got were from Clomid @ 50mg/day (that's about equal in toxicity to 15mg Tamox) But nobody ever listens.

It's well established just how toxic this stuff is. Thromboembolic issues are of primary concern, and your more likely to have a stroke the longer you use it. Ocular degeneration and retinopathy are also a problem. As are an increased association with need for cataract removal surgery in people who use it. Tamox also induces multinucleated giant cells and germinal epithelial sloughing in a dose-dependent manner and these changes are detrimental to male fertility. Ever notice libido issues on Tamox? As for the liver, memangiosarcoma, adenoma, fatty liver, and carcimona are long term effects that show up years after use. Desmosterol levels are also elevated showing direct interference with cholesterol biosynthesis. That may sound good but it's really not.

Basiclly, take letro and only use SERM's for PCT. Even then, never use any more that is needed. I can go on and on. Trust me on this one my friend, it's more toxic that everybody thinks. I even know one woman who had to have all of her teeth removed after starting Tamox therapy. That's after her hair fell out, and she didn't have anything else wrong with her before that. It's some weird **** and should not be used as causually as it is. Most people who have used it can probably think back and remeber strange things that made them uneasy about using it, if they are honest about it.

Bottom line, it was designed over 50 years ago to treat cancer patients. Think about it.
 

growmore

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Doc, that's enlightening info to think about when choosing what to use in estrogen inhibition "on cycle" but is there any comparable negative effects related to enzyme inhibitors such as letro to factor in as well?

I've also come across a study or two saying nolvadex by itself doesn't raise natural test production to any major extent, clomid on the other hand has been shown to do this very effectively from my understanding... I usually opt for both pct because tamox seams to counter some of the moodiness I experience with clomid alone (my only guess is it helps to negate clomid's estro like effects on certain receptors..) there's really nothing to back this idea, I just do this because it seams to work, although I do understand why one may want to take as few of these SERM's as necessary...

Why is it that an enzyme inhibitor (such as letro) couldn't be used effectively for recovery purposes, eliminating estro itself certainly would free all receptors, (hypothalamus as well as pituitary,) from estrogen, or would enough estro still be created via routes other than aromatase to still cause significant inhibition?
 

cr4ytonic

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Hey Dr. D do you know how long the people who had trouble (I assume they were all women) were on? I know they give this to women for 5 year stretches to prevent breast cancer.

Not doubting you, I just want to be informed because I treat Tamox like harmless candy and sounds like I should be more careful from what you have said.
 
DR.D

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GM,

The important thing to remember about letro is to not get greedy on the dose. People use way too much and it can promote estrogen rebound. If doses are kept low, this has not been demonstrated to occur. I use 0.1 or 0.2mg/d while on, depending on if I'm on less that or more than 600mg test or a suppressable equivalent. That's it. Original clinical tests found that 0.1mg is the optimum dose resulting in 75% estrogen supp. Any dose over 0.5mg/d causes 95% supp. So there is no difference in effectiveness at 0.5 or 5mg/day, it acts the same. The only reason 2.5mg tabs were marketed is because the target group are women with metastatic carcinoma! You don't need that much, they really don't either, but they have cancer so why not. That's the whole point. You can rebound in about 2 months if you get greedy and take big doses, it's not necessary.

Clomid is used almost exclusively as a fertility enhancer. Tamoxifen is too weak and toxic for this and would need to be used at 100mg+ doses to be effective. It's reserved for cancer now and low dose prevension therapy in the old days. I know clomid sucks, but I just deal with it and get off as fast as I can. Letro can stimulate LH too, but only in castrated animals, and not FSH. Clomid stimulates both. There is a tamoxifen derivative called toremifene. It has the same halogenated substitute that makes clomid less toxic, but with tamoxifen's structure. At 120mg/d, it's the best I've ever used. It's called Fareston by trade name, and I wish someone would start selling it. Mark my words, it would make nolva and clomid obsolete overnight. I've never combined clomid and tamox, but in theory, you'd have a good variety of metabolites working for you. It could help.
 
ABiLiTY

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Dr.D

I never knew about any of those risks while using nolva.

In your oppinion what is the ideal pct for a 4 week, or 8 week cycle?

Also would it be beneficial to also use something like 60X0?
 
DR.D

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Hey Dr. D do you know how long the people who had trouble (I assume they were all women) were on? I know they give this to women for 5 year stretches to prevent breast cancer.

Not doubting you, I just want to be informed because I treat Tamox like harmless candy and sounds like I should be more careful from what you have said.
What's up CR?

It's totally dose dependent. A high dose cancer adjunct could do it in 1 or 2 years, or low dose long term preventive therapy could take 10 years, or using it like we do could take 15 or 20, but it adds up.
 
DR.D

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Dr.D

I never knew about any of those risks while using nolva.

In your oppinion what is the ideal pct for a 4 week, or 8 week cycle?

Also would it be beneficial to also use something like 60X0?
6oxo is really just good for preventing elevated estrogen levels, and that won't be a big problem until your test levels are up again. Plus, it's a bad idea to take anything you don't need that could keep SHBG from rebounding. A typical PCT for me, is:
Clomid:
day1 and 2 load @ 300mg
next 5 days @ 150mg
next 2 weeks @ 100mg
next 2 or 3 weeks @ 50 or 25mg depending on recovery status

I also use 100mg DHEA once in the morning and once at noon to support test production, and take the entire clomid dose just before bed so it peaks in my system in natural rhythm with early morning test production. Except the first week, I split up the higher doses cause it's just to toxic to take that much at once. Sometimes I use Fenugreek also 2 or 3 weeks just before PCT as a pre-PCT integration w/ some hCG if needed. A little proviron may be added as well, but I rarely do.
 

Grant

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How could 6oxo affect the SHBG from rebounding? Isnt low SHBG good? I am using 6oxo for pct with nolva right now and it seems to be working great, good sex drive and and all.
 
DR.D

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If doses are low, it probably won't hurt, but you want your carrier proteins to increase after a cycle, this is inversely proportional to lowering levels of receptor proteins. But, if it's working for you, stick to it cause that's the bottom line. Besides, I know you need that sex drive up high you animal man! ;) Does she ever give you a break!?
 
jas123

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It's well established just how toxic this stuff is. Thromboembolic issues are of primary concern, and your more likely to have a stroke the longer you use it. Ocular degeneration and retinopathy are also a problem. As are an increased association with need for cataract removal surgery in people who use it. Tamox also induces multinucleated giant cells and germinal epithelial sloughing in a dose-dependent manner and these changes are detrimental to male fertility. Ever notice libido issues on Tamox? As for the liver, memangiosarcoma, adenoma, fatty liver, and carcimona are long term effects that show up years after use. Desmosterol levels are also elevated showing direct interference with cholesterol biosynthesis. That may sound good but it's really not.
So Clomid isn't as bad with respect to some of these issues above?

It's strange how these concerns haven't come up much on this board. I've used fenugreek and it worked well except I didn't like smelling
like the local IHOP when I sweat. Not sure that it smells any worse than regular sweat, though.

Thanks for the response
 
DR.D

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Right Jas, Clomid is not as bad. For PCT, it's also far more effective. I don't know why people ignore the issues. PCT is needed, so the whole point is just to minimize. Don't use them causually. To put it in perspective, it would be better on your liver to take 50mg Anadrol everyday that it would be to take 50mg Clomid, or 15mg Tamox. Just keep in mind that SERM's are not candy.

I like fenugreek, but I'm not fond of the maple syrup smell either. It reminds me of the smell I get when I'm ketogenic! But it's still a pretty effective herb for PCT.
 

VanillaGorilla

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So you would recomend Clomid instead of nolva with 6 oxo and DHEA for pct doc?
 

Spitdeath

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So now my liver is all fucked from this **** too? God damn I'm not fucking with this steroid/prohormone **** anymore I was a dumbass. :frustrate
 
jas123

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Right Jas, Clomid is not as bad. For PCT, it's also far more effective. I don't know why people ignore the issues. PCT is needed, so the whole point is just to minimize. Don't use them causually. To put it in perspective, it would be better on your liver to take 50mg Anadrol everyday that it would be to take 50mg Clomid, or 15mg Tamox. Just keep in mind that SERM's are not candy.

I like fenugreek, but I'm not fond of the maple syrup smell either. It reminds me of the smell I get when I'm ketogenic! But it's still a pretty effective herb for PCT.
Thanks Doc. I've read a lot of your posts and you have a lot of good info that I haven't seen anyone else post.
 
DR.D

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So you would recomend Clomid instead of nolva with 6 oxo and DHEA for pct doc?
Yeah, that sound fine. But you probably don't need the 6-oxo. Why inhibit your estrogen formation if the Clomid already has the receptor occupied? Plus, you won't be making too much estrogen for awhile with the lowered test levels you have after a cycle. AI's are better when on cycle using high doses of aromatizing gear like test or 4ad.
 
DR.D

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Thanks Doc. I've read a lot of your posts and you have a lot of good info that I haven't seen anyone else post.
No prob. Jas, I'll advise anyone who seeks truth. That's what I seek too, so I appreciate your good input also!
 

ramsey

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"Plants bad seeds down the road" , that's some poetic prose. I think he's alluding to property of SERMs that raises the chance of having bucktoothed gay mongoloid cannibal children.
Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
 

BigBadBootyDady

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Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
:think:
 

Grant

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Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
...

Dude, it was a joke, chill out with your BS here.
 

BigBadBootyDady

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Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
Sounds like something a schnitzel smuggling tree-huggerwould say. :p
 

89coupe

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Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
some body is a little to sensitive about that. He could feel that being gay is a bad thing and then he might not. Either way its his opinion! Lets keep it real, this man is giving you a **** load of sold info and you question him about a joke. Get over it
 

VanillaGorilla

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Do you think it's fair to include Gay as a category of genetic anomolies? I think your judgement is flawed especially considering what modern science has shown us with respect to homosexuality in homosapiens as well as mammals, amphibians, insects, arachnids, marsupials and reptiles. Case and point is that Bi/homosexuality is not dicated by genetic, social conditions or comprimised brain activity, since it occurs in all the species; the answer is elusive as that of explaining why we exist at all. If we were created by God, what created God? In the question, there is always a part of the answer.
It was a joke.................. relax P.C boy.
What would happen if a whole species turned gay? The species would become extinct because they couldn't reproduce. Seeing that man can't have children with out woman and vice versa ,that only a small portion of most human and animal populations are homosexual that would indicate it is an anomaly of some kind; be it genetic, social, or mental. Also in some animals such as dogs homosexual behavior is about power and control not about liking dogs of the same sex. If you look at behavior of homosexuals in humans you will see a significantly higher rate of drug abuse, suicide, stds, and partner on partner violence. Wrong tread for this debate. Feel free to start another thread.
 

-2z-

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Great info Doc. This info will really come in handy. Just goes to show, there's always more to learn.

Hope I can get used to clomid's sides though......ick. Tracers while driving can't be great. :eek:
 
DR.D

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Great info Doc. This info will really come in handy. Just goes to show, there's always more to learn.

Hope I can get used to clomid's sides though......ick. Tracers while driving can't be great. :eek:
I know 2z, the sides suck! Hopefully oneday soon, someone will start carring research grade Toremifene cit. and we'll never speak of these things again! Then all can be right in the land of SERM once again. :)

BTW, when the tracers become apparent, I stop for a few days and then rechallenge at a lower dose. If they come back, I abort Clomid completely for the rest of PCT. Forget about your nuts, your optic nerve and eyesight are more important. I cut PCT short about 25% of the time for this particular side. But, if you say '**** it' and finish off the rest of the planned Clomid, it can take months to resolve the eye probs, and that ain't good.
 

VanillaGorilla

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when the tracers become apparent, I stop for a few days and then rechallenge at a lower dose.
That's the first time I heard that. I glad I read this thread.
 

-2z-

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Has anyone suggested Toremifene citrate as a good chem for research to Sledge or any of the other retailers here??? I think I remember somewhere he was actually asking what people wanted him to start carrying.
 
DR.D

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I tried to special order 100g of Toremifen citrate from a good research company one time, who is no longer in business, and he was never able to find a reliable source. Too bad. But I bet if enough people asked, Sldg might get into the research game. But, unless people acted intrested, he probably thinks he couldn't make his money this way.
 
Enigma76

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For reference to all, I am currently on 30mg/day nolva for 2 months to try and cure pubescent gyno (going on studies done that I found on pubmed...there were quite afew of them...that show 80% improvement rate in gyno). After 3 weeks in, I got liver values done; they were well within normal range.
 
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TheTom

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I want to BUMP this thread, it is very interesting.

I also would like to see Bobo chime in on the Nolva Vs. Clomid PCT controversy. Since I know he exclusively recommends Nolva for everything estrogen related, as did I.

Although, I plan to stop recommending one over the other now. Until I've gathered more facts for myself.


EDIT: Also, Dr.D what is your opinion on Formestane?
 
chrisrico

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I'm wondering how many of the long term Tamox tests were done on women vs. men? Any idea Dr D?
 
DR.D

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EDIT: Also, Dr.D what is your opinion on Formestane?
I love it! I'd like to formulate a depo suspension because it's very insoluble in a conventional trans carrier (alcohol) but it's tough to get a sterile 'suspension'. I just use 20+ sprays of a ~1% solution trans daily, but it's not very effecient this way.
 
DR.D

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I'm wondering how many of the long term Tamox tests were done on women vs. men? Any idea Dr D?
Chris,
Most of them on women. Tamoxifen is a drug used clinically for metastatic carcinoma and it's prevention, in the breast.
 

MarcusG

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DrD,
You said clomid was better - why?
Is it better because its less harmful, or is it better at bring back up natural test?
 

Rogue Drone

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Doc,
I know where to get non script Toremifen citrate, aka Fareston. It's expensive. Email Me.
 
DR.D

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DrD,
You said clomid was better - why?
Is it better because its less harmful, or is it better at bring back up natural test?
Both, in my experience. But in all honesty, I've never done 150mg/d of tamoxifen before. I really like toremifene at 120mg, and it's a 4-Cl derivative like clomid, so the liver handles it well.

Your going to be my new best buddy if you can score Fareston for me Rogue :)
 

MarcusG

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Both, in my experience. But in all honesty, I've never done 150mg/d of tamoxifen before. I really like toremifene at 120mg, and it's a 4-Cl derivative like clomid, so the liver handles it well.
.....
The general feeling here is that nolva is better. An article by Bill Llewellyn which contains the main points:-

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=6&pageID=72
Nolva is supposed to be less inhibitory on LH, a antogonist on the pituitary unlike clomid, causes less SHBG increase and less prone to causing ocular problems.

Since both are SERMS and supposed to work via same mechanisms for PCT and nolva is more potent and give the reasons above, clomid was seen as unnecessary.

Since you brought up the information that SERMS are harsh on body and liver and gave a comparison to 50mg anadrol (which might explain why liver values shot up during PCT), I suppose SERM administration must not be taken lightly especially since its so easily available.
 

MarcusG

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And I saw fenugreek being discussed as a good herb in conjunction for PCT, but doing a search didn't bring any links about fenugreek being good as a 'male' herb in its traditional use.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Take your pick:


Pituitary-testicular responsiveness in male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

Weinstein RL, Reitz RE.

Clinical Investigation Center, Naval Hospital, Oakland, USA.

An isolated deficiency of pituitary gonadotropins was demonstrated in six 46 XY males, 22 to 36 years of age, with and without anosmia. Undetectable or low levels of serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) clearly separated hypogonadotropic from normal adult males. Chronic (8-12 wk) administration of clomiphene citrate caused no increase in serum FSH or LH in gonadotropin-deficient subjects. However, the administration of synthetic luteinizing hormone releasing factor (LRF) resulted in the appearance of serum LH and, to a lesser degree, serum FSH in three subjects tested. While levels of plasma testosterone were significantly lower in gonadotropin-deficient subjects, plasma androstenedione and dehydroepiandrosterone were in a range similar to that of age-matched normal men. Treatment with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) increased levels of plasma testosterone to normal adult male values in all gonadotropin-deficient subjects. Cessation of treatment with HCG resulted in the return of plasma testosterone to low, pretreatment levels. That HCG therapy with resultant normal levels of plasma testosterone may somehow stimulate endogenous gonadotropin secretion in gonadotropin-deficient subjects was not evident. The adult male levels of serum FSH and LH after LRF, and plasma testosterone after HCG, confirm pituitary and Leydig cell responsiveness in these subjects.



OR:




Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.


"Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism can involve defects in the pituitary, hypothalamus, or both. That study suggests that the defect in those subjects was at the level of hypothalamic release of GnRH (or LRF as it was called at the time that early study was published), since synthetic LRF induced LH and FSH secretion. In order for clomid to stimulate LH secretion from the pituitary, the hypothalamus must be sending the appropriate GnRH pulse signal to the pituitary.

I have another theory about how clomid and nolvadex contribute to recovery. After a cycle, SHBG is very low. This means that the ratio of free test to bound test is relatively high, and the free test can potentially act directly on the hypothalamus and/or pituitary to suppress LH production. Clomid elevates SHBG, binding more test, and possibly blocking this route of LH suppression"




About Toxicity:


ABSTRACT: Toxicity of Antiestrogens

The object of this article is to review briefly the preclinical and clinical safety of some antiestrogens.

Tamoxifen, toremifene, droloxifene, and idoxifene are polyphenylethylene antiestrogens, whereas the pure antiestrogen, ICI 182,780 or faslodex, as well as raloxifene, is of a different structure.

Tamoxifen has been shown to be genotoxic in several studies. It induces unscheduled DNA synthesis in rat hepatocytes and micronuclei in MCL-5^a cells in vitro. Tamoxifen also induces aneuploidy in rat liver in vivo and chromosome aberrations and micronuclei in mouse bone marrow.

Toremifene has also shown to be genotoxic, but to a far lower extent, by inducing micronuclei in MCL-5^a cells in vitro and by inducing aneuploidy in rat liver in vivo.

Tamoxifen has been shown to be hepatocarcinogenic in the rat in at least four independent long-term studies. The initiation of tumors in the rat is the result of metabolic activation by cytochrome P450 isoenzymes to an electrophile(s) that binds irreversibly to DNA.

The other antiestrogens have not been shown to be carcinogenic in rodents. In several independent clinical studies, the risk of endometrial cancer has increased among tamoxifen-treated women.

After reviewing the available data, the International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded that there was sufficient evidence to show that tamoxifen is a class I human carcinogen.

The increased risk for endometrial cancer occurs predominantly among women who are 50 years old or older and who have been treated with tamoxifen. It is not yet clear whether the uterine tumor formation is a result of genetic mechanisms, analogous to those seen in the rat liver or due to the estrogen agonist action of tamoxifen.

However, the other antiestrogens with a more or less similar intrinsic estrogenic potential have not been shown to be carcinogenic in humans.






Andrew James Parker
Dept. Biomedical Science,
University of Sheffield,
Sheffield, England
Updated May 25, 2000

Generic Name : Tamoxifen

USA Brand Name: Nolvadex (Zeneca Pharmaceuticals)

Other Proprietary Names: Dignatomoxi, Emblon, Fentamox, Istubol, Kessar, Mamofen, Noltam, Novofen, Oestrifen, Tamaxin, Tamifen, Tamoplex, Tamoxen, Valodex, Zitazonium

Classification: Antineoplastic; Antiestrogen

BT Dosage: 200mg/day (f) 240mg/day (m) [Adult] 60 -100mg/day [Children] Dosage depends on weight, tolerance and toxicity and varies according to individual circumstances. Always take in consultation with a physician.

Delivery: Oral tablet

Potential Side Effects: Hot flushes; Vaginal bleeding; Early onset menopause; GI distress; Vomiting; cataracts; Visual disturbances; Dizziness; thrombosis

Availability: This drug is routinely prescribed, inexpensive and should be readily available.

Abstract: The drug tamoxifen is most commonly associated with chemotherapy of breast cancer but has been used recently to treat other cancers including brain tumors. The mechanism of its action is complex involving several sites in and on cells. Current opinion suggests that its key role in malignant glioma is to inhibit a cell signaling enzyme called protein kinase C. It does this in a dose-dependent manner and consequently is administered at a much higher dose for brain tumor sufferers than is given to breast cancer patients. It has a low toxicity and its side effects are minimal. There is evidence to suggest that it should not be used in conjunction with the anti-epileptic (anticonvulsant) phenytoin. It has been used on its own and in conjunction with other drugs (adjuvant chemotherapy). Although tamoxifen does not improve all instances of brain tumor, there is considerable evidence that it is of benefit to many.A new non-invasive procedure may be able to detect those patients who will respond to tamoxifen.
TAMOXIFEN MINIREVIEW


The drug tamoxifen was synthesised in 1962 by scientists at ICI working on a contraceptive pill. Since it blocks the natural hormone estrogen (a steroid), it was classified as a nonsteroidal estrogen antagonist (8) . It has been used in the treatment of breast cancer for over 20 years (16) , although its efficacy has often been controversial (63) . Articles in the Lancet in the spring (3) and summer (61, 79) of 1998 respectively supported then refuted the value of tamoxifen with breast cancer. Later that year, the FDA approved tamoxifen citrate for reducing the incidence of breast cancer in women at high risk for developing the disease. In May 2000, an extensive study reported by Professor Sir Richard Peto has found convincingly in favor of tamoxifen, with the death rate falling by a third over ten years (54) . In addition to breast cancer, tamoxifen has been used to treat other cancers such as melanoma (30, 65) , hepatocellular carcinoma (73) , ovarian cancer (81) and prostate cancer (10) . This short review considers its application to cancer of the brain.

The action of tamoxifen is now known to operate at several sites in the cell (e.g. as a channel blocker : 2, 36, 74) and to affect numerous genes (40) but early studies concentrated on its action as an antihormone, specifically an antiestrogen (33, 67, 83) . Antiestrogenic mechanisms have been studied for around 40 years 83) but are still not fully understood. One known mechanism is that the tamoxifen molecule competes with the natural female hormone (estrogen) for binding sites on the surface of cells (46) . Estrogens are known to promote the growth of breast cancer cells, so if an antiestrogen such as tamoxifen blocks those sites, the effect of estrogen is diminished. Experiments have shown that tamoxifen blocks the effect of estradiol in cultures of astrocytes (31) , but are related to the type of estrogen receptor (ER) present (41) . Although tamoxifen has been found to be effective in decreasing brain tumor proliferation, whether this is mediated via the ER remains controversial, despite evidence of such mechanisms with a glioblastoma cell line (43) and in meningiomas (25) . Other studies have shown a specific cell cycle action of tamoxifen, mediated by mechanisms other than estrogen inhibition (66). There is also an important interaction between the ER and an enzyme called protein kinase C (35) .

Protein kinase C (PKC) denotes a group of enzymes that regulate functions such as cell growth and differentiation. It is known to be involved in a process called signal transduction. This is a messenger system, which transfers a signal arriving at the cell surface (e.g. hormone or neurotransmitter) into a cellular response. Protein kinase C has been implicated in glioma invasion (18, 77) and its role in malignant glioma growth and proliferation has been reviewed (5, 12, 27, 60) . Tamoxifen has been shown to block cell growth in brain tumor cell lines (26, 49, 68) and inhibits PKC (10, 47) . Proliferative signal transduction in glioma cells has been shown to occur through a predominantly PKC-dependent pathway (6, 7) . One isoform of PKC (isoform A) may be of particular importance (6, 18) . In addition to tamoxifen's action against PKC in adult high-grade gliomas, it has been shown to inhibit proliferation of cell lines derived from both low- and high-grade pediatric glial tumor (56) . A model cell system has been constructed for the screening and identification of PKC inhibitors potentially active against astrocytoma cells in culture (69, 70) .

As well as tamoxifen, a number of other PKC inhibitors have been shown to be effective in glioma inhibition. These include calphostin C (38, 59) and UCN-01 (57) .Another PKC inhibitor, hypericin (derived from the herb St John's Wort) has been used with tamoxifen for adjuvant chemotherapy of malignant glioma. In a study of seven human malignant glioma cell lines it was found that hypericin and tamoxifen induce apoptosis in a concentration and time-dependent manner (80) . In one patient, hypericin was able to replace tamoxifen's growth inhibition after loss of sensitivity to tamoxifen after a 22-month period (34, 55, 85) . One study on the action of tamoxifen on PKC activity in glioblastoma tissue found the inhibitory effect arrested the cell in the G (1) phase of the cell cycle. However, this action was observed to occur in a dose-dependent manner (22) and it is apparent that to be effective against gliomas tamoxifen has to be administered in a high dose.

The dose of tamoxifen used in the treatment of breast cancer is in the range 20-40 mg/day. However, since it has been shown that tamoxifen inhibits PKC in a dose dependent manner (22, 39, 80) , investigators have used higher doses to treat brain tumors. A key worker in this area is William Couldwell who, in a pioneering study (21) , first gave tamoxifen in antiestrogen doses (40mg/day) to monitor possible side effects in a cohort of malignant glioma patients. Provided no adverse reactions were observed dosage was then increased to 160mg (female) and 200mg/day (male). A positive response was obtained with a minority of patients (3 out of 11). A later study using the same dosage also found a subgroup of patients responding or stabilizing with high-dose tamoxifen. (23) .

In a study using doses graded between 40, 80 and 120mg/day, it was found that the patients receiving the higher doses demonstrated a longer median survival (51) . One study using 240mg/m (2) observed a variation in tamoxifen metabolic profile (29) . If there is a variation in how individuals metabolize this drug this may partially explain the variation in response to tamoxifen. However at that same dosage [240mg/m (2) ] another group found that symptoms of neurotoxicity occurred when tamoxifen was given in conjunction with interferon alpha-2a (17) .

In childhood glioma (45) , tamoxifen has been shown to produce tumor reduction and halting of tumor progression (9) . Pollack et al (58) found stabilization in 4 of 14 patients previously exhibiting progressive disease. One group had received 60mg/m (2) and a second group 100mg/m (2) daily. This study concluded that tamoxifen's low toxicity and easy administration; its proven effectiveness with some patients merited further study. Furthermore it was suggested that in patients with malignant gliomas, tamoxifen could potentate the effects of conventional chemothrapeutic agents.

A drug is said to have a synergistic effect when its action in combination with another drug is greater than the action of the two drugs administered separately - a "gestalt" pharmacology. There is considerable support for this effect with tamoxifen. Experiments on a human glioblastoma cell line (39) found that tamoxifen or tumor necrosis factor alpha could each inhibit proliferation in a dose-dependent manner. However, when given together the inhibitory action was greater than either agent alone. It has also been shown to improve quality of life when used in conjunction with procarbazine (11) and hypericin (86) . Similarly, the antiestrogenic action of tamoxifen is potentiated by bepridil - a sodium-calcium exchange blocker - in experiments on human astrocytoma and neuroblastoma cells (42) . Synergism has also been reported with radiotherapy (13, 26, 28, 50) .

Not all of tamoxifen's interactions are beneficial. There is evidence to support an adverse reaction with phenytoin (32, 64) and care should be exercised if tamoxifen is being considered for patients receiving this anti-convulsant. One report suggests that it may protect glioma cells from the action of cytotoxins (72) . A study reporting risk of thrombosis with tamoxifen (71) requires examination. Out of 4095 patients, 21 incidences of thrombosis were observed (0.5%), only one of these cases occurred with a brain cancer sufferer. The age range was 29 - 75 years and no evidence is presented as to whether the reported incidence exceeds that of a normal population not receiving chemotherapy.

Tamoxifen is generally considered to be of low toxicity (14, 82) but some workers have expressed doubts as to whether tamoxifen may be carcinogenic (4, 75) . However, such evidence is less substantial than that for its beneficial effects and indeed many malignant brain tumor sufferers would consider a "long term " risk in a positive way. In terms of proven carcinogenicity, tamoxifen is considerably less harmful than many other chemothrapeutic agents (15) .

As the number of trials and treatments of brain tumors with tamoxifen increases, so do the analyses and statistical analyses of such protocols (20, 37, 48, 84) . A review of treatment of high-grade astrocytomas by all treatments (37) found in favor of the nitrosoureas and platinums in the treatment of this type of tumor but also highlights the many problems associated with such group comparisons. How are patients selected for treatment and inclusion in the study? Do they receive the same dose - for the same period, and are they stratified by histology? Because these surveys are derived from individual patients and each patient will have received the physician's best treatment it is impossible to determine a standard treatment, only overall trends. If there is a subset of patients who are particularly susceptible to one chemotherapy, their positive response may be diluted by many that are not. The laws of statistics forbid a researcher from subjective selection of sample.

Long term survival with tamoxifen has been reported with a woman who developed a solitary brain metastasis following cancer of the breast. Following surgery and radiotherapy, this patient received tamoxifen and is generally well 10 years after brain metastases (53) . A positive response to tamoxifen has been observed with other metastatic brain tumors (44, 78) . Indeed the point is made that tamoxifen offers the benefit of treating both the primary (extracranial) and secondary (intracranial) tumors (44) . A detailed report of long term survival with primary brain tumor and tamoxifen awaits collation and analysis (52)

In summary, the evidence for tamoxifen in chemotherapy of brain tumor, although by no means proven, is more than encouraging. As with many experimental chemotherapies, there is often more promise shown with in vitro tissue culture studies than are delivered in clinical trials. There are many reasons for such a difference in response (76) . It would seem that this drug is effective with a minority of malignant glioma sufferers (21, 23) . The reason for this may be attributable to individual variations in tamoxifen metabolism (29) or it may point to variations in brain tumor pathology or metabolism yet to be clarified. Use of screening assays to predict the action of tamoxifen (1, 69, 70) may give insights into variations amongst gliomas and their susceptibility to this agent. Even more promising is the use of proton magnetic resonance spectroscopic imaging to predict how malignant gliomas will react to tamoxifen chemotherapy (62) . This paper suggests that it is possible to accurately predict the response of the tumor to tamoxifen on the basis of noninvasively acquired in vivo biochemical information. Certainly tamoxifen's low toxicity (71, 82) and minimal side effects coupled with its ready availability and low cost, present strong arguments for its application. It may be given alone (53, 69) or in combination with other agents (39, 42, 80) which enhances its action. It has also shown promise in conjunction with other techniques such as stereotactic radiosurgery (24) and radiotherapy (26, 28)

The potential benefits of tamoxifen clearly outweigh possible deleterious effects in brain tumor patients. It may only achieve a positive effect in a minority of patients but that fortunate group should not be denied the benefit simply because the drug does not improve survival for all brain tumor sufferers. The very fact that its action may take a considerable time to be manifest (19) will be good news to many. Indeed, the reasons underlying tamoxifen's variability may well indicate further avenues of research and treatment and broaden our understanding of this pernicious disease.


Considering the doses and time use we are talking about, I think the toxicity issue is a bit overblown.
 

Funny Monkey

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Dr. D what about combing letro and clomid for pct? I have also read alot of issues about this over at steroidology and clomid seems to be the most of them reccomended. Actually I remember some guys saying not to take nolva unless you experience estrogen sides.
 
RobInKuwait

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This may be slightly off topic, but since we're talking about Nolva and Clomid, I always hear people say something along the lines of 40/30/20 for nolva. I'm sure people have tried higher doses. Has anyone heard if theres a difference in PCT recovery time if you took say 100mg ED versus the standard 40mg ED?
 
DR.D

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Dr. D what about combing letro and clomid for pct? I have also read alot of issues about this over at steroidology and clomid seems to be the most of them reccomended. Actually I remember some guys saying not to take nolva unless you experience estrogen sides.
I think the SERM will reduce the effeciency of your letro, but letro is so strong that if your using at least 0.8 to 1.0mg/day it probably wouldn't even matter.

RobIn, I use high dose Nolva before just to load, but never sustained 100mg/day for very long. Next PCT I do is going to be a combo experiment of both clomid and nolva.
 

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